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Author Topic: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system  (Read 12099 times)

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Offline Dan_Shade

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LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« on: May 10, 2007, 07:27:26 PM »
some of us are never quite satisfied  ::)

after seeing how FAST the supers operate the loader and clamp, i'd like to know what it takes to make mine that fast.

I know the super has two pumps and larger hoses.

how are the pumps plumbed (series or parallel)

what size are the super's lines?

Can the alternater on a G25 handle the extra pump load?

I can live with the speed of the engine, but i get bored waiting on the hydraulics!



Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 07:54:18 PM »
There are quite a few other changes involved to upgrade the one pump on a standard HD to two pumps on the Super. 

You first question – the pumps are hooked up in parallel.  They just “T” in together – hydraulically.

Most of the Super lines are 3/8”.  I suspect they are the same lines as used on the standard HD mills.

The two pumps require a big honkin’ battery and a higher amp alternator to charge it.  It also requires heavier cables from the contact strip to the battery and contact strip to the pumps to carry the heavier amp load.  There are two solenoids to kick the pumps on.  I think the line fuses for the pumps are a total of 450 amps.  That's a bunch!  :o

Best way to upgrade is to trade up to a new Super.  You know as soon as the HD is faster,  you’ll want the head travel faster,  and then you’ll want to saw faster.
 


I just went out and pulled the pumps an solenoids on our mill so I could take a better picture.

 

'Corse,  if you really have a need for speed,  just patch in a power pack.  6 gpm @2000 psi really gets things moving.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 08:23:18 PM »
ok. so the super doesn't have 2 reservoirs?

the hoses on a standard hydraulic are 1/4, I believe.

yeah, i know I'll want more, but i figure that if I can speed up the hydraulics substantially for about $1,000, I might be happy for a few weeks...
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 09:36:03 PM »
ok. so the super doesn't have 2 reservoirs?

the hoses on a standard hydraulic are 1/4, I believe.

yeah, i know I'll want more, but i figure that if I can speed up the hydraulics substantially for about $1,000, I might be happy for a few weeks...

Yea, the Super has twin pump/reservoir units.  They are the same unit. As I look at the picture above,  I see that the white filter blocks out most of the view of the tank of the pump unit on the back side.   You can still make out the fill cap on the back unit.



Woodbowl added hydraulics to his manual LT40 and then doubled his pleasure, doubled his fun by adding a second pump unit.   You may want to check with him and see what he ran into on the conversion.

Here is a link to his post in "Useful Sawmill Mods".

Woodbowl's "double pumper"
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 09:44:33 PM »
ahhh

so how big's the alternator need to be?

i see 2 pumps, 2 solenoids, a bigger alternator, and larger hoses between me and faster hydraulics.

is there room for an auxiliary battery in the box if 2 pumps are in there?  however, a battery in there sort of scares me, due to explosion potential (batteries release hydrogen gas while being charged, and a spark can explode that gas).
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 09:54:33 PM »
I think a lot depends on how old your mill is.  I know the older HD mills had a box made for one pump and valve unit.  There wouldn't be enough room for a second pump in the older mills.  And I'm not sure about the box size on the newer standard HDs.  Maybe the newer ones all have the same box as the Supers. 

In any case, the two pumps, valve body, filter and the little break battery that's in there pretty much fills it up.  There would be no room for a second battery.

Alternator size?  I'm not sure - maybe 160 or 180 amps.  They are special alternators you know.  Does your mill have an external alternator now?

I'll bet you're ok on the hose size.

What year is your mill?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 09:58:48 PM »
my mill's an '04  I'm pretty sure the hydraulic boxes are the same.
hose size will impact the flow rate, I figure, larger hose will allow more oil to move to the cylinders.


It looks like my alternator is 105A.



Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2007, 10:15:11 PM »
my mill's an '04  I'm pretty sure the hydraulic boxes are the same.
hose size will impact the flow rate, I figure, larger hose will allow more oil to move to the cylinders.


It looks like my alternator is 105A.


You can look in your manual and there should be a page with hose lengths and sizes. We can compare.  When I had the pump unit built for our Super,  the guy designing the unit was not concerned with the hose size.  I still bet you're ok with the size you have.

If you take the top off your pump box and there is enough room to put another pump beside it,  then the newer mills have the same pump box as the Super.

Mary and I are going down to St. Charles in the AM to the Mid-West Forestry Show.  I'll be able to look at a Super and standard HD side by side.  Maybe I'll take a 9/16" boxed end wrench along and pop the top while they're not looking.  We won't be back until Saturday evening.

You will need heaver or double cables and heavier fuses and solenoids.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline logwalker

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 12:42:10 AM »
If you weren't upgrading the feed motors I don't think you would need a bigger Alternator. The reason is that it is still doing the same work just doing it quicker. So adding a second battery on a tray next to the hydraulics box to help with the increased load would do the trick. 105 amps is an awful lot of juice when you get down to it. What does a second pump cost anyway, does anyone know? I'll look at that other thread and see if it answers that question. Joe
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 03:07:55 AM »
I looked up the parts on my WM Customer Gateway connection for our 2002 LT40 Super. The pump/motor/tank assembly would run around $450.00.  The hose fittings coming in and out out of the pump are 3/8".  I looked at the hose chart and there are a mixture of 3/8" and 1/4".

The cable size to the battery is 1gage. 

I don't think you'd need two batteries.  Just a heavier duty (deaper amp draw) than the one you have.  I think the one on our Super is something like over 1000 amp draw.  The heavier duty battery may not be phisicaly any bigger than the one you have now and would likely fit in the same battery box you have. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline logwalker

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 11:40:31 AM »
May work well, Bibby, but if he adds the second battery then he can use the hydraulics when the carriage is away from the power strip. I find I need to use it often.
Let's all be careful out there tomorrow. Lt40hd, 22' Kenworth Flatbed rollback dump, MM45B Mitsubishi trackhoe, Clark5000lb Forklift, Kubota L2850 tractor

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2007, 11:41:57 AM »
this is the pump assembly listed for mine:

Pump Assy, W/Motor Hyd 1  P12701   $465.15

that's what I was thinking in addition, logwalker.
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline woodbeard

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2007, 01:38:07 PM »
Dan, my mill has the dual hydraulic pumps, from a super, but only a 25 horse onan.
The 60 amp alternator it came with burnt out, and the 105 amp alt. I replaced it with went soon after. The second unit was one I got at the parts store, locally, as I needed it right away. I replaced it with one from WM, who also suggested I try disconnecting one of the pumps, which I did. I have not had any problems since, but ya, it is noticably slower. It still runs the chain turner, though, which I was worried might be an issue.
I thought about trying a bigger alternator, but apparently, that requires some modifications, and I was not confident my engine would be strong enough for it.

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2007, 01:47:18 PM »
Providing a second battery could help this a bit, the pair wouldn't be as deeply discharged so your alternator wouldn't be as heavily loaded when it hits the contact strip.  It would take longer to get a full charge of course.

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2007, 01:55:01 PM »
Woodbeard,
I put a hotter alternator on my 1990 LT40 and it went out fairly quickly.  I had it rebuilt and also put in a bigger battery.  One or the other fixed the problem.  The 24 Horse Onan had no trouble pulling the alternator.

Alternators on WoodMizer Hydraulic mills take a real beating. They and the battery should be considered fairly frequent maintenance items.

One mode of operation that will help is to leave the engine running all of the time.  I've noticed that a lot of operators, me included in the beginning, would shut the engine off at every opportunity.  I used to think of wasting gasoline or wear on the engine as being avoided.  I also wanted it quiet while we were moving logs or discussing our plans.

I found out that the mill needs those non-sawing operating times to recharge.  Once I began leaving the mill running, accept for dinner or fuel, I had fewer electrical problems.
extinct

Offline Bibbyman

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2007, 05:15:54 PM »
We just got back from the Forestry Show in St. Charles where I was able to take to one of the WM service guys from Georgia.  It looks like the operation should be a bolt on change out.  The box on the newer mills are the same on both mills with the holes already there for the second pump unit. 

He did mention on other item that would need to change – that is the hydraulic fuse elements that are at the bottom of the cylinders on the loading arms.

And some of the hydraulic hoses are bigger (3/8” vs. 1/4") on the Super. 

We didn’t talk about the electrical part.  But he did say that if you call Wood-Mizer parts, they could fix you up with all the parts you needed. 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 06:22:39 PM »
I called woodmizer today, I ordered a parts list for a super so that I can dig through and figure out what the subtle differences are.  depending on cost, I may go for this mod, but i'm slightly concerned of having to swap it all back to standard if I ever sell the mill, though I'm not sure that I'd have to do that :)

Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline Furby

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 07:49:56 PM »
Looks like Bibby has most of the parts ya need already! ;)

Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2007, 07:54:54 PM »
i don't know that he'd want to part with those larger hoses.....

:)
Woodmizer LT40HDG25 / Stihl 066 alaskan
lots of dull bands and chains

There's a fine line between turning firewood into beautiful things and beautiful things into firewood.

Offline AusLJW

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Re: LT40 hydraulic system Vs LT40 Super hydraulic system
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2007, 06:49:29 AM »
Hello Bibbyman
I have an LT40 HDD and a twin blade edger.  I cut full time.  I'm interested in how you patched in the hydraulic power pack.  I work almost entirely from a fixed site and could hook up a single or 3 phase power pack- That way I would imagine I would only be making minor mods to the LT40 and should I upgrade I could keep the power pack.  Any advice you have would be very much appreciated.
Regards

AusLJW


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