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Author Topic: Thoughts On The War ?  (Read 9326 times)

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Offline Bud Man

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Thoughts On The War ?
« on: April 07, 2003, 04:53:50 AM »
I feel like I've been to the County Fair, stayed 20 days, and spent $300+ Billion dollars, won a 100,000 Lb. Teddy Bear that I'm gonna have to carry back to the car, which I parked 1000 miles away which I sure hope will crank and that no one has stolen !  "DanG"  I'm relieved this thing is winding down !
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Offline Tom

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2003, 10:08:46 AM »
I hope it is but that place has a lot of streets.  If the citizens don't feel safe enough to rise up and help,  we could be in for a long winter.  All in all it's worth it though.  Freedom's price is always worth it.
extinct

Offline Bud Man

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2003, 04:02:06 AM »
Implosion - Implosion- Implosion-  Like the absence of a Queen Bee in a bee hive, the buzz of bees, in this case looters and celebrants, are signaling the end is near.
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Offline Phorester

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2003, 10:38:11 AM »
Just think of the amount of lumber that will be used to rebuild over there. I'll bet we see a big bunch of  Southern Yellow Pine, Doug Fir, other ones steaming their way to Iraqi ports. Anybody for getting up a tree planting crew for Iraq?



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Offline sawyerkirk

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2003, 11:11:24 AM »
We've already got some good Indiana oak over there in the form of wheel chocks. Wonder about timber in Iraq? seems to bee a couple of large lakes, wonder if they have any trees around them. Wouldn't that be a custom sawing job!! Definately have to have a set up fee.  

Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2003, 07:45:10 PM »
   I heard one news story that Saddam had done a major engineering job draining swampland around the Tigris and Euphrates in order to drive out rebels (or insurgents- or whatchamacallem..)- and that it was an ecological disaster. I'd like to see that put right.

  It is a magnificent country and the cradle of civilization. If we could bridge the cultural gap and the huge gap of trust- which will continue as long as people call 'them' towelheads or ragheads or f***a** arabs- this has been going on for generations- we might get somewhere.

  There is one guy on the Fire Dept. that really gives me a pain- we go head to head over most issues- or would if I engaged. But he said something that I feel is absolutely true. We were talking about Iraq, and Vietnam, and etc- he'd been over in Vietnam- and he said - 'yeah, it's all about oil'- but that's not what struck me. It's when he said that the ONLY thing that makes any difference is the contact of one individual with another individual. That that is where changes get made.

  Now that, of course, is just where we feel the most powerless. What can I, by myself, do? But if each of us is an ambassador- if each interaction- by 'us' and by 'them' is an exercise in tolerance, justice, fairness, and truth- that is where the changes are made. When we stop fighting and start talking, and trading, and acting from the good side of human nature.

  It's an intimidating task that faces our troops, and I don't mean precision bombing or sreet fighting. I mean being humans. Armies are not necessarily trained in this,. Historically, raping, pillaging, looting and burning were legitimate tactics. Instiutionalized, lgitimized terrorism. And armies attracted those predators who wanted an excuse to do this as a paying job.

  I hope this has changed.   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline HORSELOGGER

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2003, 07:58:08 PM »
Intimidated by the task of being human ??? How much more human can you get than to liberate an oppressed people and remove the bullys boot from their throats? I watched this morning as our troops first watched as the Iraqis tried to pull over a 40 foot statue of saddam and then eventually offer the power needed to pull that disgusting piece of scrap iron down.the process took awhile, so I was listening to the account of the events on the radio in the shop. When I heard that it was close to coming down, I ran to the house to watch it topple with my wife and family. When that thing hit the ground and those people started stomping on it and beating it with their shoes, I teared up with joy for them, and with pride and admiration for our troops. That country has a long tough row to hoe in the aftermath of this, but my mind has no doubt that we acted in a right manner.
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Offline Phorester

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2003, 08:10:00 PM »
L. Wakefield, combat breeds brutality.  After a lot of it, you sometimes reach a point where you are completely exhausted, weak from hunger or thirst, senses are brutally assulted by what you see, hear, feel, smell, taste. Normal social mores that we keep in check fall by the wayside in this situation, if even just for an instant. With a fully loaded semi-automatic rifle in your hands that has a cyclic rate of several hundred rounds per minute, it only takes an instant.  I can't believe any war, no matter how short, does not bring on acts of brutality by some soldiers, even Americans, who could keep those responses in check in more civilized situations. These are human emotions.  Unfortunately, I just don't think they will ever change, LW. War has different rules.

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Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2003, 07:33:27 AM »
   I agree with the risk of impulsivity and the reality of burnout. Violence breeds violence. I feel it IS a challenge to be the 'good' side of human. The savage, predatory, bullying side- is all too close to the surface for some.

  One hopes that people do not buy into the 'different rules for war' to the extent of losing their compassion and perspective. I think those who came home from WWII and still years later unable to talk about it DID pay the price of their humanity and compassion- having had to do and witness things that they know are contrary to the inner workings of the loving heart of humanity.   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline Patty

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2003, 01:35:25 PM »
I agree with Horselogger. I filled with joy and pride at the scenes showing our soldiers being cheered by the Iraqi citizens and the statues of intimidation falling down. Our soldiers are honorable men and women, performing honorable acts of  kindness and goodness to those who have been so oppressed all these years. These past few days of watching the Iraqis cheer our soldiers will be etched in my memory forever. I am so very proud of our country and all that it stands for...freedom, liberty, opportunity. 8)  Hooorah!
Focusing on the ugly has never been a fruitful effort for me. When there is so much goodness to witness, the ugliness seems insignificant.
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2003, 06:26:23 PM »
After watching hours of FOX News,  Ive noted that the mix of car brands in Iraq is about the same as in the USA.  Looks odd to see so many Chevys,  Fords, Dodges, etc.  Even seen an old Mustang and an old (63-64) Chevy Impala.  But a lot were newer vintage mini-vans and SUVs.  
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2003, 06:31:19 PM »
seems like a lot of white. must be for heat deflection
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Offline Bibbyman

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2003, 07:48:52 PM »
Somebody told me that white was one color that didn't fade or peel from the heat of the sun like other colors.  And its probably cooler too.  Dont remember seeing any black cars over there. ???
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Offline Bud Man

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2003, 08:42:49 PM »
There fleet of cars , excluding the elite's, resemble Cuba's with an adjustment of 20 years added to them. I was amazed at the overall cleanliness prior to the liberation looting that appeared in the  media coverage although the focus had been on the upscale side of town.   Maybe some lifting of restrictions can come about and some new American made cars can start appearing on the streets of Baghdad and fewer Mercedes !
The groves were God's first temples.. " A Forest Hymn"  by.. William Cullen Bryant

Offline Tillaway

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2003, 10:33:00 PM »
A good link.  Use autoplay at the bottom far right.
http://andreasworld.0catch.com/Military%20Page/AngryAmerica.html
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2003, 06:49:37 AM »
   www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pol16/justwar.htm is one of the many references to be found when you do a websearch on 'the principles of a just war'. I'm not finding the exact article I have in hardcopy (somewhere)- it started with the p[rinciples but then had multiple pages of discussion. I MAY have made a composite of this page plus some of the linked sites.

  Another website discussing the concept that 'It's all about the oil' is a Canadian newspaper- it identifies most of the major players. http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030412.wxoil0412/business/Business/businessBN/ctv-business  

(Godamighty, I thought my fingers were going to fall off about the 3rd time I had to type 'business..)

  So, ONE of my questions is- I don't live du Canada. Anyone in the viewing/reading area of this rag? Is it all one slant or is it a reasonable read in most cases?  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2003, 07:04:38 AM »
   hmm-- fishy, fishy-- the canadian website comes up when I click it but without the text of the story- I can't figger that one out- censored? Blocked? And the Mt Holyoke site acts bogus- maybe I typed that one wrong- I will check it.  lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline L. Wakefield

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2003, 07:13:48 AM »
 http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030412.wxoill0412/business/Business/businessBN/ctv-business  

  is the right one, I think. Dunno why they wanted to spell oil with 2 Ls, but who am I to question..  lw (or is it llw)
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Offline OneWithWood

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2003, 08:11:24 AM »
How Iraq is rebuilt will have an immense impact on the security of Iraq, the USA, and the UK.  If the government of Iraq is not truly a government of and for the Iraqi people, or if the American and British governments make too many demands on how things are done we will play directly into the hands of those who wish us harm.  There are many factions in the world that will use the impression that the war was pushed onto the world by the US and British for the economic gains of the perceived agressors to portray the USA and the UK as imperialist powers.  The result of political misteps at this junction will be like putting out a fire with gasoline.
I hope our elected leaders will resist the urge to engage in further chest pounding and build the necessary coalitions that will allow Iraq to grow and prosper as Europe and Japan did after WWII without the creation of a cold war, or in this case, the advancement of world wide terrorism.  
There is no doubt that our forces can kick the butt of any other country or group of countries on this planet, but that was true of the British, the French, the Mongols, the Romans and many other powers that fell onto their own swords of grandizement and ignorance of the human spirit.  Let us hope we have learned from history and do not repeat the mistakes of the past.
If Iraq becomes the source of large contracts for Halliburton, KBR, Dyncorp, Bechtel, and the British counterparts to those corporations at the expense of Iraqi and other regional enterprises we will be well on the way to increased terrorism and hatred for our way of lfe. If on the other hand Iraq is rebuilt by Iraqis and other mideastern consortioums with our financial and technical assistance democracy may flourish in Iraq and spill over into the surrounding autocratic states.  It will have occured from within the mideastern psyche and not have been imposed by western culture.  This is a very key difference in approach that I hope is understood.
Along the same lines I understand there are thousands of well meaning Christains posed to invade Iraq to impose their beliefs on the polpulace there.  I wish those well meaning people would look into their hearts and heed the basic tennet of all the religions which is to treat your neighbor as you would be treated yourself.  Look for the commonalities in beliefs and the details of the names used to express the flavor of the message will not be such a flashpoint.
Interacting with cultures is not unlike assessing a log to determine how to best obtain the desired finished product.  It is the understanding of the subtleties of how the log evolved and the knowledge of the best techniques to bring to bear that enables the operator to extract all the log has to offer.
So it is with the world at large. :)  
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Offline dewwood

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Re: Thoughts On The War ?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2003, 09:45:57 AM »
One with Wood,

You have offered exceptional insight into a very delicate situation.  I hope our leaders as well as those of other nations can look on this as an opportunity to further the causes of democracy and humanitarianism.  There is a lot more to be done in the future than has been accomplished in the last few weeks.  

Your comparison to logs was interesting.

Dewey
Selling hardwood lumber, doing some sawing and drying, growing the next generation of trees and enjoying the kids and grandkids.


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