The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service

Dynamic Green Products Inc.





Author Topic: Can i make a liveing?  (Read 9009 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline marc

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • Age: 35
  • Gender: Male
  • I have to much to say, it all will not fit on a few lines.
    • Share Post
Can i make a liveing?
« on: July 20, 2001, 11:27:40 AM »
I am 16 and thinking of buying a band mill but can a liveing be made I live in Ottawa, Ont Canada I would work 5 days a week and is there any thing els I should know before I buy one.

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25838
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Toms Saw
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2001, 11:37:06 AM »
Hey Marc, it's me again.

There is a whole lot to know.  I appreciate your spunk and your doing the right thing to "find out how deep the hole is before jumping in".

I need some time to gather my thoughts and will answer you.  We also have some other Bandmillers on the site that will be willing to help I'm sure. Just give them time too and keep checking back.
extinct

Offline Bibbyman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11421
  • Age: 70
  • Location: In the middle of things
  • Gender: Male
  • Pro-Sawyer Mary and Bibbyman
    • Share Post
    • Warden Sawmill
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2001, 04:40:59 PM »
Hi Marc,

What would really work well for you if you could find an old geezer in the band sawmill business and work with him.  Even for a few months or maybe work out a deal to take over his business.  A lot of us are too hard headed to admit it,  but we ain't got that many good years of making sawdust ahead of us.  ( I got an old uncle that is 87 and now in the nursing home but was still trying to get his steam engine going last summer so he could saw on his circle mill that is older than he is!)

Meanwhile, just ask any of us anything - we know it all!

Best of luck.

Bibbyman,
8) 8) 8) 8)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25838
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Toms Saw
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2001, 08:03:44 PM »
The really fun thing about sawmilling is sticking the saw in the log and seeing what is inside.  To get there and to do it right means that you should start with the basics.

Your customers will think you are the expert on wood.  It is best if you study all the woods in the area that you  work in.  You need to know where they grow, how fast, how big, how straight and generally what to expect when you open them up.  That's a good reason to pay strict attention in Biology class and spend as much time as you can learning anything you can in Botany.  

You need to know Arithmetic and be familiar with algebraic equations.  Know something of geometric figures.  Know a great deal about business.

Business is more than an ad in the paper.  Its money, inventory, budgets, purchasing, law and how to handle people.  Handling people is an art that can be learned and is used every day to deal with customers and employees.  If you don't know how, things will be difficult.

You need to know something of your customer's businesses.  A cabinet maker will ask for a certain cut of wood and you are supposed to know what he is talking about.  A framer or Log Cabin builder will have their own special languages.  A turner will want a stick cut a certain way and if you cut for bowl turners,  you will be just as much an artist as he is.  You have to know what may be inside of a piece of wood before you open it up.

You have to be a mechanic to keep your equipment running.  At least be able to diagnose a problem.

You need to learn how to saw and practice.  There are sawing methods that require you to educate yourself.  Quarter sawing, flat sawing, Through and through sawing, Flitch sawing,  Taper sawing and Boxing are not just "Buzz words."

You need to know wood terms.  Shake, split, ring shake, wind shake, heart shake, bark, cambium, early wood, late wood, heart, sap wood etc.

You need to keep yourself physically fit  You need to know how to handle heavy weights without hurting yourself.  You need to be able to judge the abilities of those working with you.  You are the driver and you could hurt them.

Sawing is a business in itself. There isn't much money there.  It's a lot of hard work, great satisfaction and small paychecks.

The money is in the selling of the wood.  You increase the amount you make by adding value to your product.  You should learn or be aware of grading rules and if you can, become a grader.

Here is an example.

You can saw somebody else's logs for $.20 a board foot and if you average 2000 ft. a day will gross $400.  Now that may sound like a lot of money but you need to take away the cost of insurance, fuel, equipment costs, replacement costs, maintenance, taxes and perhaps many other costs. What you have left is your profit.  That is what you live on.  If you can net half of your gross then you are living on $200 per day.  There are 260 working days in the year so the best you will make is a yearly salary of $52,000.

If you buy a log, saw it, plane it, kiln dry it, and  make a table,  That table will boost the board footage value perhaps 100 fold.  The wood in this instance  will be valued at $20 per board foot gross rather than $.20.

What you net from that depends on how efficient you are, but there are more dollars there to work with.

Yes, you can make a living sawing.  It would be fairly minimal.  Especially for a young man who wants to start a family and is looking at raising kids and putting them through college.

The more value you are able to efficiently add, the more successful you will become.

Now,  that doesn't mean to wait till you "know it all" before you try but it does mean that you need to take this goal seriously.  It takes an education.  It requires that you continue your education as long as you live.

If you are still at home and have a roof over your head and a family to help support you and pick you up if you fall then it is probably the best time in your life to give it a shot.  Don't replace school with a sawmill.

If you are in school, stay there.  If you are not in school then get to the library, read books and find an old timer who is willing to show you the ropes and feel free to come back here.

Now I'll pass on a financial "rule of thumb" told to me by a smart man, my Grandfather.  "Don't spend more than half of your money at a time."
extinct

Offline Bibbyman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11421
  • Age: 70
  • Location: In the middle of things
  • Gender: Male
  • Pro-Sawyer Mary and Bibbyman
    • Share Post
    • Warden Sawmill
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2001, 08:30:35 PM »
Tom left out a very important part of the whole sawmill deal - a good understanding wife with a good job with benefits! ;D

I know you're probably not thinking about that yet but not many women enjoy men with rough, callused hands.   :'(
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14133
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2001, 06:33:56 AM »
I've seen guys with small band mills make money and I've seen some go belly up.

Those who didn't make it, tried to compete in the marketplace with large mills.  Large mills make their money by production.  That keeps their unit costs down.  They sell in trailerload lots and sell at a lower price than small band mills can afford to produce.

But, those who have made it often cut for niche markets.  These are usually small markets that larger mills don't handle.  They include custom sawing, local construction, and specialty markets.

When looking to make a living, think value added.  Look more to a finished product.  Kiln dried stock, flooring, difficult to find species, turning squares, etc. are often things that larger mills don't produce for the general public.  That changes your market from wholesale to a retail.

One thing you will need is a reliable source of timber.  You will also have to buy them at a reasonable price.  

You should also get some type of experience in the wood field.  Either start at the green end or the finish end and work toward a mill.  The learning curve can be pretty steep, and you can learn on someone else's dollar.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Bibbyman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11421
  • Age: 70
  • Location: In the middle of things
  • Gender: Male
  • Pro-Sawyer Mary and Bibbyman
    • Share Post
    • Warden Sawmill
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2001, 07:28:15 PM »
You know,  "Making a living" is kind of depends on how well you think you want to live.  I know a number of people that just don't think they need to compete with Bill Gates.

Back in late '93,  when I was looking to getting a mill,  I interviewed a guy that was in his mid-30's that had an 80's vintage LT30 Wood-Mizer manual mill that he'd bought well used.  He had a newer but modest house just outside a little town.  He drove a rusty old Chevy LOV pickup.  He professed his business plan was to make $200 per week.  If it took until Monday at 10:30 in the morning or Friday at mid-night, whenever he got his $200,  he was done working for the week.  The rest of the time was spent hunting and fishing and visiting with friends.

Another case;  There is a couple that live near me that live in a log cabin about 12'x20' with NO luxuries on 20 acres.  They have some large barns and train horses, train people to ride horses and stable horses for other people.  It's a 24/7 deal and one or the other has to be there at all times. They are intelligent and interesting people who have chose to be different.

I'm not going to tell them they need a 20-room house with a four-car garage,  a big powerboat and a Suburban to pull it down to their lake front house.   ::)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline marc

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • Age: 35
  • Gender: Male
  • I have to much to say, it all will not fit on a few lines.
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2001, 08:53:28 AM »
Thanks for all your help this gave me new insight on buying a mill.

TanglewoodTimber

  • Guest
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2001, 08:14:56 AM »
There are sages in life and life has its sages.  I have seen some very sage guidance presented here.  I was a public school teacher for 30 years.  I know sage when I see it.  Thank you, gentlemen {in its purest sense} for the directions you provided for Marc.   Your words are truly trueism.                                                                                    I researched for three years before I purchased the first of my three sawmills.  The whole nine yards of what each of you were speaking to.  I too had some guidance from a wise sage, my father, who had been in the retail lumber business for 30 years.   A true post to lean against and surely listen to what he had to say.   I may not have followed his advice all of the time,{like perhaps many of us} but I listened.  In my researching I found that to be the highest hurdle to handle, because I wanted to begin sawing logs, no matter what. :P

Offline CHARLIE

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3209
  • Age: 76
  • Location: New Richmond, Wisconsin 54017
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't wait 'til both feet are in hot water before you decide to put your best foot forward.
    • Share Post
    • Coulee Region Woodturners
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2001, 08:45:25 AM »
Marc, the thing that stood out in all the advice that was given was education. It's important to, at a minimum, have a High School diploma. Further education in the field you choose can be college, technical school, apprenticeship and reading all you can find.  Also, learning the skills needed to run a small business. You're only 16 and have plenty of time ahead of you and it is great that you have determined your field of choice at such a young age. That gives you more time to focus and learn about it. Who knows, you may decide to go into Forestry or some related field later on.

Meanwhile though... ::) ....I was just thinking, Tom mentioned you could saw wood for .20 a board foot. Well, I also know that you are a woodturner and if you find a market, you can make some good spending money with your woodturning skills (more that .20 a board foot and with "freewood" if you find an item people want to buy). This would supplement your income while you learn sawing, forestry and business.  See if you can find a "high end" Gift Shop in your area (you can even mail your wares to one) and show them one or two items that you turn well (bowls, toys, boxes, etc). Supply them with these items at a cost where you can make a satisfactory income per hour and where it allows them to also make a profit (in other words, don't overprice your items). You can use your woodworking talents to give sustain you while learning your chosen profession.

 
Charlie
"Everybody was gone when I arrived but I decided to stick around until I could figure out why I was there !"

Offline L. Wakefield

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Hollis Maine
  • Gender: Female
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2001, 11:12:04 AM »

Quote

Tom left out a very important part of the whole sawmill deal - a good understanding wife with a good job with benefits! ;D

I know you're probably not thinking about that yet but not many women enjoy men with rough, callused hands.   :'(


  Hey Bibb and company- I missed sounding off on this one back in July (what was I thinking!?)- just caught it when I was hopelessly trying to catch up after a week of being buried by TOO MUCH STUFF TO DO..

  I can't speak for all those 'other wimmin'- but from my own perspective- calluses mean work. Work (unless you are an axe murderer..) presumably means you are making things better all the way around. I've grown too many calluses of my own to even begin to fathom what the enjoyment factor would be for soft hands. Calluses go with strength and strength is- fun..

  Any way you cut it, guys (and ladies) be proud of your calluses! You got them the right way, and anyone worth anything as a mate is going to be looking at you as a do-er and should be proud of you for what you do. If they need their little consciousnesses raised, take them out inta the woods and hand them a saw. Then they should be able to see- what you saw..

  Just my deranged 2c.. :D :D :D   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline woodmills1

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5188
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Hudson, NH
  • Gender: Male
  • the truth shall set you free
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2001, 07:26:37 PM »
last night at our local hangout i picked my friend scott clean off the ground.  he weighs 315.  yes thats in pounds.  he was like no way dude, you can't do that.  the cook, lee appears and picks scott off the ground a second time.  scott's like, how then?  lee, in chinease american says, "mills do wood so do i".  lee runs over to the pool table and picks up one end.  woodmills runs over to the pool table and picks up one end.  lee say, "wow, you pool table too".  tonight i meet a woman who just sold her paving company and is now set up for snow and then landscape.  she had the nicest callouses i ever saw, even my lovely mrs wood commented.  :D the woman left to fix her F-350.  i went home to sharpen blades.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline Bibbyman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11421
  • Age: 70
  • Location: In the middle of things
  • Gender: Male
  • Pro-Sawyer Mary and Bibbyman
    • Share Post
    • Warden Sawmill
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2001, 07:50:11 AM »
LW,

Wow!  My ears got to burning about 2:00am so I got up and checked the stove and for any late chatter on the Forum.

I invite you to review my statements in the context of an older man with experience passing on wisdom to a young man asking for help.  

The experience part in my case is quite the reverse of what I said.  I get up and go to an office job every day while Mary runs the sawmill,  house and farm Ė plus a hundred other small jobs.  She can arrange her day the way she wants,  while I have little to say about my activates at work.  This condition will continue for a while longer as the cost of the health care and other benefits from my job are just to important to walk away from.  Plus, itís real nice to have one steady paycheck. I had planned this the other way around but it didnít turn out that way.  

Plus,  Iím thinking of a friend in our neighborhood that started up his own sawmill business and expanded to include kiln dried lumber, etc.  He recently quit his sawmill business and took a job in town.  He and his wife are ďspittiní the sheetsĒ,  as they say.  I donít know their personal business but could well be a lack of understanding of how any self-employed person could have a wide variation in income and workload.  He, having some independence and she going to the same old job everyday could have been a factor.

The callused hands statement was directly from my own experience at this young manís age.  Coming from a working farm and logging family,  my hands were always callused, rough and more.  My hands were often stained from working with fresh cut white oak staves,  walnut logs,  grease and oil from working on machinery.  Contrast that with one guy whoís father was the sales manager for a car dealership in town.  His hands were soft because the only work he did was detail cars on Saturday mornings at the dealership.  He wore nice cloths, drove a new car, and always had spending money.

I did find a woman that either appreciated my rough hands or saw past them.  Yesterday evening we celebrated our 32-wedding anniversary by going to the Olive Garden (instead of the cafť at the truck stop).  It was quite elegant.  As we held hands,  I noticed she had put lotion on them (as she often does) but it still didnít cover the calluses.

P.S.  The son of the sales manager married one of the more attractive, intelligent girls in my class.  About 10 years latter and after two kids,  they divorced because he was running around with younger women.  The car dealership folded where he had went to work for is dad.  He was later arrested for selling dope.  Last time I seen him,  he had a woman about half his age hanging all over him and Iíd bet he still didnít have a callus on his hands.

Iíve got to go.  Mary is out cutting firewood and I told her Iíd be out soon. ;)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14133
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2001, 12:05:58 PM »
When I was younger, I worked for my great uncle on his farm.  He was an old time railroader, and that helped keep the farm in tact.

He taught me early on to wear work gloves, no matter what the chore.  I've done that ever since.

Even while sawing on hand mills, I never devloped rough hands.  Never a complaint from my wife.

Just a thought.  ::)
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline stickbilt

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Gender: Male
  • framing fool
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2001, 01:27:01 PM »
I started out working when I was 14 carrying bricks and mud for my stepfather. I worked summers, weekends and school vacations. When I was 16 I got a job framing houses for the summer and then continued on in a co-op program my senior year of HS. By the time I was 18, I was running a framing crew for my boss and I was the youngest guy. When I was 22 started my own business. Let me tell you, back in the eighties was easy pickins. Anyway, back on subject. My hands are hammered (no pun intended). It might be a combination of handling wet or frozen lumber and the cold New England winters. I now wear gloves at work every day year round. I can wear out a pair of leather work gloves in a couple of days if I take a strip and re-roof. My fingers may be beat up but they are still there. I have a couple of friends that are missing parts of fingers and thumbs so I guess I can't complain too loudly.      Stickbilt

Offline Corley5

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8470
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Wolverine, Michigan USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Wolverine, Michigan
    • Share Post
    • Whittaker Farms
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2001, 03:56:26 PM »
I hate gloves.  The only time I wear them is when it's cold or I'm handling something danerous i.e. skidder cable, white ash lumber, deer heads, just welded on metal etc.  I've never worn gloves baling hay either.  Good calluses are as good as gloves.  As a younger man I cut pallet bolts mostly 50" long.  One day after an encounter with the old 65 Husky which required stitches the nurse couldn't believe the calluses on my hands.  They didn't prevent 28 stitches though. :o  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Offline L. Wakefield

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Hollis Maine
  • Gender: Female
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2001, 03:57:16 PM »
   Down in WV, when I was younger, less arthritic, and in a warmer climate, I rarely used gloves unless it was to keep clean, be insulated from electricity or bobwahr, or corrosives like cement with lime.

  But then I moved to Maine. The first winter of icefishing and VICIOUS frostbite taught me the wisdom of gloves. Since then, I've also been doing the nursing (they really like CLEAN hands), and the fingers continue to twist from the arthritis..so my gloves are part of my 'armour' along with my coverall- the beat-up one for the barn, and the 'dress' coverall for rescue calls and snow commutes etc.

  I just haven't figured out how to milk in gloves- but you get warmed up good shape after a minute or so at that. Haven't yet gotten a milking machine. My 'plan B' is the calf :D.

  Honestly, fencing is wonderful in gloves. That 'bend steel with your (almost) bare hands'- hey, why not- if it's bobwahr, you can do a lot of the splice work with your hands before you reach for the tools to tighten it up.

  Mike has been 'camping out' in the new iceshack in the front yard, waiting for the ice to come..9* 2 nights ago, 6* this am. He's getting happier...   lw
L. Wakefield, owner and operator of the beastly truck Heretik, that refuses to stay between the lines when parking

Offline Bibbyman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11421
  • Age: 70
  • Location: In the middle of things
  • Gender: Male
  • Pro-Sawyer Mary and Bibbyman
    • Share Post
    • Warden Sawmill
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2001, 05:09:06 PM »
I have a publication of old pictures of our area collected but our local Historical Society.  One picture taken about 1910 is of an old Black man in his 90ís.  He is well dressed in a pinstriped suit, tie and dress hat of the time.  What was odd,  his pants cuffs were about 10Ē off the ground and he was barefoot.  :o He had been an emancipated slave that had become on of our townís more prominent citizens by continued his trade of making bricks under his own employment.  He mixed the clay for the bricks with his bare feet and was said never wore shoes Ė even in winter. ::)

Iím with Corley5 on the topic of gloves.  The only time I ware them is when Iím welding,  or Iím driving the tractor when itís below freezing.  I find gloves cumbersome and likely to snag up and get my hand caught up in something.  I also flip blades without gloves Ė but I donít recommend you try this at home.   :o
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Offline Jeff

  • Fearless Leader
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 49900
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Harrison MI
  • Gender: Male
  • I know that I do not know.
    • Share Post
    • THEE Forestry Forum
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2001, 05:28:36 PM »
Same here, no gloves unless cold, or I am working with something that could have metal filings or "cathairs" no, bibby not like in the stuffing. Nothing worse then having a cathair off of a frayed cable or a hydrolic hose run into your hand.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life.
Ezekiel 22:30

Offline allyson

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Age: 46
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Can i make a liveing?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2001, 05:31:23 PM »
For the most part, I am not a big fan of gloves either. They always seem to get in the way. >:(
However, as for certain circumstances, such as mentioned above, they are beneficial and I do wear them in those cases. :)

Happy Holidays, 8) 8) 8)
Billy


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Head cold. Make it stop...make it go away!! Man, I turn into a baby...

Started by maestro on Health and Safety

4 Replies
3262 Views
Last post September 16, 2008, 03:56:29 PM
by Riles
xx
What'd I make this for?

Started by Lud on General Woodworking

10 Replies
1301 Views
Last post June 11, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
by Lud
xx
Will they make it??

Started by marty on General Board

8 Replies
2895 Views
Last post April 21, 2001, 08:00:59 PM
by timberbeast
xx
Anybody make it all the way through yet?

Started by Gilman on Sawmills and Milling

15 Replies
4182 Views
Last post November 08, 2006, 02:22:15 PM
by Gilman
 


Powered by EzPortal