Newbie band mill questions, & lots of them...

[StorminN]

Hi guys,

I have a friend that recently bought a used Western Sawyer band mill. I don't know much about band mills, so I'm a bit lost here... I went over there the other day to help them get the mill going... they had been having trouble with it diving in the cut, etc. It's a fully manual mill, 11hp Honda, 1-1/4" blades, not sure what kind, I think Timberwolf. They were using a new blade.

They had been trying to make flat cuts on some logs that they're using to build a timber log home. We ended up adjusting the alignment of the band wheels, the guide rollers, and the tension on the blade... and we got it cutting pretty good. We took a couple of practice cuts, then made the "big cut" on a log that they had been fitting the joints on for two days... and it came out well! I'm not sure if it was luck or what, but I'd like to learn more so I can know a bit about what I'm doing and point them in the right direction if I can.

I know that there must be numerous posts on here for bandsaw newbies, but I don't know what words to search for, so I figured I'd ask directly...

1. - I know I once saw a post by Tom that detailed bandsaw blades... all the different terms and what they mean... does anyone remember the title of that post? I'd like to figure out what type of bands they have now.

2. - For the general alignment of band wheels... do you normally try to adjust them so they are perpendicular to the track, or perfectly in line with each other, or is this over-thinking things? Is there a "beginner bandsaw setup for dummies" thread here somewhere? We attempted to get both band wheels to align to each other (blade off, straightedge across the rims of both wheels) but on this mill, the alignment adjustments are kinda whacky, and once we put a band on and tensioned it and spun the wheels, the tracking was off... so we adjusted the tracking until the band stayed where it needed to be, and called it good.

3. - I seem to remember guys saying they use 1-1/4" blades OR 1-1/2" blades, on the same mill... is this true? Are certain mills designed to use certain sized blades? This Western Sawyer mill is small... it has small band wheels and they're currently using 1-1/4" blades, but the tooth spacing is maybe only 7/8"? I need to go back and measure things to be sure. What size / type bands do most of you use on a small mill like this, for cutting Doug Fir?

4 - I'm told the guide rollers on this mill are aftermarket, it originally had guide blocks. I assume that step in the guide roller is supposed to be parallel to the back edge of the blade, and I think I remember reading somewhere that it should be maybe 1/16" behind the back edge of the blade when the blade is running, but not in the wood. On this mill, the bar that the adjustable guide is mounted to has a bit of slop in it... so once they tightened the bar down, they had to shim the guide roller mount to get the roller to be parallel to the back of the blade again (note the pop can top shim in the pic). Is there a certain thread that tells how to properly adjust roller guides?

5. - The band wheels on this mill are pulleys with loose v-belts in them. How loose are the belts supposed to be, and how much of a crown should the back of the belt have?

6. - I remember seeing a thread about band blade speed, and some guys using bicycle speedometers to make sure their band speed was staying where it needed to be. Do different bands (teeth per foot, hook, etc.) require different band speeds? Do you basically adjust your feed rate (in this case, walking speed) to maximize your feed rate while maintaining a given band speed?

7. - For manual band mills, what sort of clamping mechanisms do you guys find work the best? The clamp on this mill leaves a lot to be desired. It's not a big problem on the bigger logs, but my friend will need to mill some smaller logs and will need a better clamping method.

8. - And the best for last -- blade tension... this mill uses a large bolt to adjust the blade tension... no spring, no dial, no hydraulic cylinder... so how do you know when the blade is tight enough? We adjusted the blade pretty much as tight as we felt comfortable setting it, and the blade still had some flutter in it at speed (throttle up), when it wasn't in the cut. Should it have been tighter?

Thanks in advance for any help...
-Norm.

[thecfarm]

Have you tried"Forum Extras" upper right?Go to Knowledge Base,than Band milling.Lots of in fro there to get you started until someone comes on to help.
Question 5 has me concerned.Kinda sounds like what I have.I have "pulleys" with a V or groove in them that a V belt goes into and the bandsaw blade rides on that.Is this what you mean?It's very snug in there.I don't feel the belts should be loose at all that the bandsaw blade is riding on.This might be causing problems too.
I'm no expect at all.I just listen to the engine and the noise of the blade to let me know how things are going.I do run mine wide open all the time when I'm in the wood.I just slow down on the pushing when I come into some big,dead knots.
By the way what kind of wood was you sawing?Knots,live ones,dead ones?
I had some spruce on once.Meanest stuff to cut.Need a certain hook from what I gather on here to make it cut good.
Almost forgot about the lube.Is he running any lube on the band?

[ronwood]

Stormn,

On number 3 I would recommend that they use 1 1/4 bands.  With a 11 hp motor you would never be able to cut any faster. I don't think that I would even use them on my LT40 that has a 25 HP gas engine.

Ron

[StorminN]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the responses... thecfarm, I will check out the Forum Extras... thanks.

Here's the pics that were supposed to be in my first post:
Drive side roller guide:


Idler side roller guide, note pop can shim:


Idler side wheel, note loose belt:




Front view of the mill with the cover off:


Rear view of mill


Log bunk with groove for log "clamp"


Log "clamp"


Thanks again, guys...
-Norm.

[ronwood]

Norm,

The V belts on the pulleys look like about the same about as those on my LT40.

Ron

[moonhill]

#8, band tension, I don't have any hydraulic tensioning device on my mill.  I watch the blade on top between the wheels as it is tightened the blade comes taunt, the slack just comes out, right where the blade stops moving.  Fool with it and notice as you tighten and loosen you can see the band stop moving just as it becomes taunt.  At this point I tighten 1/4 turn more and lock it down.  I had for some time when I was new to the saw, turned it 1/2 a turn past that point and it used bearings and I had to replace a shaft once, a 1/4 turn is critical on my saw.  The saw in question may react differently.      Tim

[shinnlinger]

Ill take a shot at tension myself...I'm with moonhill...just a whisker over tight enough to take the slack off. I have nothing to go by other than feel myself.  I have seen somewhere around a here a post on using calipers and a sharpie to measure distance between two line before and after tensioning if you want to get scientific about it.

I' took a different aproach than you.  I bought my machine used, lubed it up and and went for it with good results.  I didnt find this forum (well you told me about it , Norm)till after I had most of my house frame cut.

Yeah. I wasted peices of some nice sticks that I still cry about but it worked out OK in the end.  i Have no idea if my wheels are in alignment or not.  The mill cuts straight with a sharp band and is within 1/16 of square on a 8x10 so I didn't mess with it.

Back to the tension.  When I first got it I would crank the tension bolt to the point I began to deform the whole unit.  My thinking was a tight band would wander less as it gets dull...wrong. After reading a post here, I learned that just barely tight enough allows even dull blades to cut straight for me.   But I wouldn't reccomend dull bands, especially with an 11 horse motor.

Have fun!

[logwalker]

Norm,

As I mentioned I had the same saw for 5 years and cut a whack'o logs with it. The machine has several weak points that you need to be addressed.

1. The guides have been changed to a machined roller and that is a big improvement over the phenolic blocks it came with. But now the issue is alignment. The movable arm on the idler side just does not cut the mustard and flops around too much. It helps to adjust the rollers down below the bandwheels about 3/16" so the roller is pulled up tight. That helps keep it from moving around. I lined the receiver that it slides in with UHMW plastic. I improved it only slightly. The rollers have to be adjusted so they hold the blade as level to the bed as possible. The saw must be level to cut straight. Bottom line. First get the wheel close as possible to vertical and then adjust those rollers. Get the blade adjustment tool form Woodmizer or Cooks and use it to set both guides level to the bed. Adjust the tracking so that the blade rides nearly centered on the wheels, just slightly forward. Then adjust the guide rollers so the back flange is less than 1/16" from the flange. Clear as mud, eh?

2. The tension needs to be pretty tight. First back off the bolt by a couple inches or more. Slide the battery shelve and idler shaft towards the engine and check for rust and buildup beneath it. Lubricate the frame and shelf so it will slide freely. If there is a lot of friction under there it will be hard to get accurate tension on the blade. Lube the nut and bolt that adjusts the tension so it turns freely. Get a 1/2" speedwrench with the right socket to make the adjustment. I think it is a 3/4" bolt. With the speedwrench you tighten it so it is hard to move any more. The speedwrench is good because you only get a small leverage so it is hard to over tighten. It needs to be tight.

3. I made new clamps out of Jorgenson pipe clamps. I first welded two tangs of 1/4" steel to the side of the bunks with a hole large enough to hold a 3/4" pipe. I welded an arm to the sliding body of the clamp that was about 7 or 8" long. Welded a 3/4" bolt to the arm and used threaded rod with a handcrank welded to that. The pipe goes thru 1 tang and the the clamp assmbly goes on the pipe and the pipe goes thru the second tang. Then put a threaded cap on both ends and tighten so the clamp pipe will rotate but not slide back and forth. When I needed to clamp something I would swing the clamp up into alignment with the cant or log and slide it into contact with the wood. A couple turns would secure it nicely. This was the best thing I did for the saw. Made a big difference. If this doesn't make sense I will get some pictures for you. The saw is in the area.

4. I used the urethane belts that Art at Suffolk Saw sells fit tight to the bandwheels. They work well and are easier to install than v-belts. I don't like loose belts. I think it is hard on blades. V-belts will work also. But I recommend running them tight.

5. The blades could be sped up a little with good result. Around 5000/5500 s.f.p.m. is ideal. I posted on the bandblade speedometer a couple years ago. Very useful to tell what is going on and if you are slipping in the cut. $10 well spent. Walmart has them as do any bike store. Drill the idler wheel with small hole to mount the magnet. Takes 20 minutes to mount.

6. Unbolt the bunks and weld an angle iron base on bottom. Then have a pin on the bottom of the bunk drop into the holes on the track and just set there instead of bolting down Then you can just pick them up and spread them or bring together depending on the length of the log. Never had one move while cutting or loading logs.

7. Only use 1 1/4" blade with 7/8" spacing. Use .022 to .026 on the set. Keep sharp at all times. Change often at first sign of diving or when it gets hard to push along.

That's it for now. Just ask if you have more Q's. I will be glad to help.   JOe

[StorminN]

Thanks Joe, very helpful!

In #1 in your reply, you say "First get the wheel a close as possible to vertical and then adjust those rollers." Is the "wheel" you're talking about the band wheel? So the two band wheels must be as close to vertical as possible (or as close to perpendicular to the bed of the saw), and the band wheels must also be as co-planer (to each other) as possible? That's the idea, right? And then you're saying, "adjust the roller down about 3/16" so the band pulls it up tight"... that's 3/16" down from a line drawn tangent to the bottom of one band wheel to the other? What is the "blade adjustment tool" you mention... I looked on the Cook's and WoodMizer web sites, and I can't find it. Is it basically just a big square? (or could we improvise with a big square?)

The tension reply is right on. I like the idea of the speed wrench... we'll have to try that.

This afternoon, I welded up a couple more of the Western Sawyer-style "clamps" pictured above, so my friends would have more than one "clamp" to use... but your Jorgenson pipe clamp trick sounds like the way to do it, and I think I have a few of those pipe clamps bouncing around somewhere... got some scrap steel I can drill out with a 3/4" hole, too... the trick will be getting the welder to the mill, or the bunks to the welder... but you say they unbolt? I'll have to check that out, I'm going to the mill tomorrow morning. I agree, this is a key thing to do.

Thanks for the info on the urethane belts... I'll pass it on.

I'll tell my friend to buy a bike speedometer... he might even have an extra, he's an avid biker.

I like the bunk idea, too... not sure if they will need it or not, most of the logs they are cutting are 16' or longer... my friend is having someone price out welding up 30' more track so they will have 50'? total of track to do long logs for this house they're building.

Thanks for the tip on the blades... while we're at it, what blades would you recommend for old, dry cedar (like 50 years old, but never milled)?

Thanks a ton, Joe!

-Norm.

[StorminN]

Hey Joe,

I found the link to the Cook's blade alignment tool... thanks!

Cook's blade alignment tool

-Norm.

[logwalker]

Norm,

Bandwheels need to be perpendicular to tracks and co-planar. That is the starting point.

Yes to the guide rollers being 3/16" below the line of the bandwheels. It is a necessary evil in that it creates a very small radius for the blades to have to go around and that puts stress on the band body but it gives the rollers control of the attack angle of the blade.

The blade guide tool is a straight edge that clamps to the blade itself and allows measurement to be taken of the angle of the blade. Think of a metal u-shaped saddle with a slot machined in it for the straight edge. An adjustment bolt tightens the assembly on the blade and you check the blade angle at each roller. Cooks knows what it is if you call them. It is less than $20 and would be hard to duplicate for that amount.

That track is very easy to duplicate in 20' sections. I built one for mine. Just be sure that you weld carefully to prevent pulling the section into a curve.

Joe

[logwalker]

Norm, you posted while I was writing. When you use the tool you need to put the straight edge on the side opposite the burr left from the grinding process. It will not be accurate otherwise. Joe

[StorminN]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the note about the burr... duly noted.

I noticed on the Cook's site that their roller guides all use a zerk bolt so that the bearing is greasable. The first thing I noticed about the guide rollers on this Western Sawyer mill was that they were loud... and they don't have any sort of grease fitting, so I oiled them first thing. Are most of these roller guides greasable, and should I have my friend buy a couple of the zerk bolts, or do those just work on the Cook's guides?

Thanks,
-Norm.

[shinnlinger]

Joe,

Would you think Norms friend should put his ear out for a bigger moter?  I mean do you think the mill could handle an 18 horse if they stumbled on one for cheap? Like in an old garden tractor or something?

I also like your speed wrench idea for band tension.

Thanks.

[logwalker]

The larger 18 horse, (I think), Honda will likely work as the frame seems well made. Mine had the 13 hp as I remember it and it was adequate. Sharp blades like to eat wood..

I did go to the grease-able bolts. Don't over grease though. Joe

[StorminN]

Hi Joe,

I'm wondering if you've got a pic of the log clamps you made... or at least if you could tell me what you put on the end of the threaded rod that contacted the log? Did you just sharpen the threaded rod, or did you have a shoe on there that contacted the log?

I scavenged a couple of "Pony" brand clamps and I'm going to weld a setup like you described, but all the logs these guys are milling are already peeled and pressure washed (think log home building) so I'm not sure what is the best end to put on the threaded rod... I don't want something too pointed or destructive, since they're just making flat cuts on the logs and the rest of the log will be visible in the finished home... I don't want to mar them up too much.

Thanks,
-Norm.

[logwalker]

Hi Norm, I used a 3/4" all-thread rod. On the end I took my die grinder and hollowed it out to form a cup with sharp edges. It leaves a little sucker mark on the log but does a great job of grabbing the slick wood. I will try to make a drawing of the setup. Joe

[StorminN]

Hey Joe,

Thanks a bunch for the drawing! That's what I pictured you meant, I just wasn't sure about the end that contacts the log... but I like your die grinder idea... I'll try it... thanks!

-Norm.

[StorminN]

Here's some more pics of the Western Sawyer mill, in place on the deck of the log home my friend is currently building...

I stopped by to check out the custom log timber / SIPS panel home that my friend is building for some clients. My friend is the one that recently bought the Western Sawyer band mill, they've been using it to flatten some of the logs for floor joists and roof purlins. Here's some pics.

[bandmiller2]

Norm,the guide rollers likely have sealed ball bearings relitively cheap and easy to replace, for light use they are fine.If your going to install a zerk bolt remove the inner seals so the grease can reach the balls.Usally when their noisy they need replacement.Frank C.