I got my homemade mill running but need help, please?

fishpharmer · February 06, 2009, 07:55:00 PM

Okay, I have spent the last couple of days working diligently on the homemade mill. I got the engine running. Came up with a solution to raise and lower the cutter head. But I still have not come up with a better blade guide, yet. This may be my problem.

Maybe it was wishful thinking but I couldn't help my self. There was an old half rotten pine log near the mill. I rolled it up there. Got it dogged down. I started to cut. Soon after the blade entered the wood not over an inch or two (maybe a 12 inch wide cut) the blade started to dive.

Then it started to smoke.

I suppose it was from the added blade friction of pulling up against the wood, maybe three inches into the cut.

I backed out slowly. I feel like it was a combination of things.

1. I think the plane of the blade is not parallel with the plane ot the log bunks or track.

2. I think the drive band wheel (tire) has a slight downward angle (if that makes sense).
Let me say it like this, the drive shaft on the drive wheel has a slight downward slope on from the back end to the front (drive wheel side). I will try to insert photo here:

Now that I look at the photo close, it seems to be apparent (the slight downward angle back to front.

I can adjust this by sliding the pillow block bearings up or down in the slots.

I will try this tomorrow.

3. My homemade guides are near worthless. Only good thing that happened today was they kept the blade from being pushed off the back of the tire.

I was under the impression that good adjustable guides could remedy any slight odd blade angles.
(I am not sure how to define slight).

Is this true?

My plan is to upgrade to some heavy Cooks guides After I upgrade the guide support system. What I have now is made of thin one inch tubing. The drive side is quit rigid yet has no real angle adjustment, only forward and back and/or up and down.

The idler side is the same flimsy tubing and is essentially worthless as it appeared to put alot of downward pressure on the blade.

I took it off when attempting to cut today.

3. I have alot to learn about blade tension. I am now able to put all the tension that I think I need.
I will do a search on tension.
The blade seemed to have an everslight vibration. Maybe a sixteenth of an inch.
Will guides fix that vibration?

Any help would be appreciated.

I got a lot to learn about sawmilling.

Thanks,
James

Fla._Deadheader · February 06, 2009, 08:46:49 PM

Tubing is not a good material for the guide arm. It flexes too much.
We used 1" square solid bar, and made the idler guide adjustable. It runs in close to the log or cant, the closer the better.

You have such a wide mill design, it will be tough to remove ALL the vibration, unless you make the arm adjustable. That will also hold the blade much more steady, and help guide the blade.

The face of the wheels need to be parallel to each other, and 90° to the bed bunks. Any angle from 90° and you are fighting the tracking of the blade.

To adjust the parallel from horizontal, wheel to wheel, we use a stout string and pull it tight from the outside of each wheel or tire wall, and see if it touches the inside face of the wheels or tire walls. It's like setting toe-in, toe-out on a vehicle. This is very important.

Once you get all these adjustments correct, your problems will be behind you.

Then, you set the guides and the tension.

When I first saw your mill, I just couldn't understand why you went so wide ???

Table slabs are usually 36" wide, and 2 or more pieces. We have sawn many 36" wide pieces, use trailer wheels, and have no problems, once things are aligned and adjusted properly.

sawmilllawyer · February 06, 2009, 11:51:21 PM

fishphamer, looked at the Cooks guides and think they are the best buy out there for the money. Stick with it you get the mill running right. Best of everything.

mike_van · February 07, 2009, 06:07:17 AM

fish, looking at your first pic, it's more than a "slight downward" angle, it's a lot. Like Harold said, all this 'stuff' has to be aligned just about to perfection before you'll make lumber. I put a pic. of my moveable guide on, it's double 1" round steel running in lineal motion pillowblocks. Lots of adjustment room built in too. That guide needs to be out close to the log/cant. Also, please put some guards on that machine, I wouldn't want to be near it when it's running, I've seen too many blades break. Early on in my building process, I had a 24" dia. cast wheel let go, if I had no guards - I might not be here typing today, as some good size chunks left some good size dents in my guards.

fishpharmer · February 07, 2009, 06:43:07 AM

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on February 06, 2009, 08:46:49 PM

Tubing is not a good material for the guide arm. It flexes too much.
We used 1" square solid bar, and made the idler guide adjustable. It runs in close to the log or cant, the closer the better.

I will get rid of the tubing. Solid bar sounds like a good idea. Also, with the wide throat Maybe I should have two anchor points.

You have such a wide mill design, it will be tough to remove ALL the vibration, unless you make the arm adjustable. That will also hold the blade much more steady, and help guide the blade.

I will make the arm adjustable similar to what I have now but with two anchor points

The face of the wheels need to be parallel to each other, and 90° to the bed bunks. Any angle from 90° and you are fighting the tracking of the blade.

The face of the wheels are parallel, just not at a perfect 90 angle from bed bunks. The drive wheel can be adjusted in any direction. The idler side has toe in and toe out adjustment but the height and angle are set (welded). But I just thought of a possible way to add verticle adjustment.

I think you can see it on this picture:

To add idler side vertical adjustment, I am thinking I could pull the tire and hub off the spindle first. Then pull the pin out of the hinge for toe in/out adjustment. I would be left with the plate and spindle unit. Next I could put a hinge on the top of the plate/spindle and hinge to (on the top)another plate between it and tensioner slide. I could tap and thread a couple of holes on the bottom of plate so that vertical angle can be adusted with the turns of some large bolts. I am not sure if I explained this very well.

What do you think?

To adjust the parallel from horizontal, wheel to wheel, we use a stout string and pull it tight from the outside of each wheel or tire wall, and see if it touches the inside face of the wheels or tire walls. It's like setting toe-in, toe-out on a vehicle. This is very important.

In my ignorance when building the mill I thought the guides would correct everything. Great idea with the string technique, I will try it. But this brings another question up.

Does the band blade need to be a perfect 90 degree angle to the log bunk track (if you could look straight down from the sky onto blade and track? If that makes sense.

Once you get all these adjustments correct, your problems will be behind you.

Then, you set the guides and the tension.

When I first saw your mill, I just couldn't understand why you went so wide ???

The following picture shows the type logs I had the delusion of cutting.

Also, my redneck mentality is at fault.
I think the Rake plans call for a 24 inch cut. My intelligent self thought if 24 is good than 48 would be twice as good. Sad but true.

Table slabs are usually 36" wide, and 2 or more pieces. We have sawn many 36" wide pieces, use trailer wheels, and have no problems, once things are aligned and adjusted properly.

I was truly inspired by your mill deadheader. I really appreciate you taking time to comment on my mill.

One more question. Would a wider blade (I have a 1.25 inch on there now) like a two inch wide, allow me to put more tension and be more stable with my superwide cut? Provided all the above are corrected.

Thanks again everyone. I apologize for asking so much in one post. Hate to make for a tiresome read.

fishpharmer · February 07, 2009, 06:52:15 AM

Thanks Mike. I like your design. I will try something like that.

Also, I am nearly finished with the gaurds, i think. If I make the above changes my guards may have to be changed :(. I will try to post pics. The gaurds presently cover top, outsides and bottoms. Front and back next.

Thank you.

fishpharmer · February 07, 2009, 07:00:45 AM

Thanks to you too Sawmlllawyer. And thanks to everyone for looking.

I am running a 1.25 inch blade now. Do you think a wider blade would be more stable with alot of tension on my 48 inch wide cut?

bandmiller2 · February 07, 2009, 07:43:20 AM

Fisher your almost there,that 1" thinwall just won't cut it.You need guides near boath tires,1 1/2" thick wall square tube would be fine,have the side twords you adjustable.Run the tube inside a larger piece of tube with a sliding fit.Put a t "T" handle screw on the corner of the big tube to lock it in place.Align tires as mentioned,a little bit means alot.When cutting have the guide as close to the cut as possible.Frank C.

Kelvin · February 07, 2009, 08:26:24 AM

Howdy,
I'll tell you that even w/ a production mill, woodmizer LT40 in my case, i still have to sort through a lot of monkey business to make sure everything is coplaner and square. you need to start at square one and work backwords. The blade needs to travel flat to the log bunks, the best way is to make sure your band wheels are square to the log bunks, i wouldn't count on the guides to correct errors. The guides are usually set with downward pressure on the bands, maybe 1/4"-1/2" down from flat accross. didn't know if you were aware of this setup. You can make good guides, they can be simple bearings with flanges. I think the store bought ones are expensive and overkill for your machine. You can put too much tension on the blades, i would buy a tension gauge on ebay to save guessing. It will help to know you are correct

I built my own bill reeks bandmill from scratch before i bought a woodmizer. First it was just goofing around, but when i wanted to do it for a business i knew i needed something reliable. As people mentioned. I could make money sawing instead of engineering. I would suggest bringing your bandwheels in. They will cause you trouble constantly. Just buy an alaskan chainsaw mill to slab with. They cost $200 some bucks and use a big chainsaw. This is what i do. Make the flat cuts on your bandmill then switch to alaskan. You can even make a seperate carriage for the chainsaw mill!

Good luck. Lots of guys here with good engineering skills.
KP

Banjo picker · February 07, 2009, 09:11:52 AM

Hey James good to hear you are making progress. Has the golden retriever crawled back under the bushhog any more? :D :D :D When I saw it standing in front of the log, it jogged the mind a little. I thought we would have to hook it to the tractor to get it out. Tim

fishpharmer · February 07, 2009, 09:47:31 AM

Bandmiller-I like the idea of thick wall 1.5 tubing as well I will compare cost of that to solid bar. This is a low budget saw.

Kelvin in hindsight I think I should have bought a manufactured mill. Heck I don't much about sawmills now. I knew zero when I began the idea of sawing my own wood.

I probably got another thirty of forty hours and about 300 dollars more in it after this week. I really want to exhaust all possibilities before I give up on my mill in its present state. I think if I had to make the band wheels closer I would just start from scratch. I kinda like a challenge.

I will try to make the adjustments suggested and go from there.

Tim, thanks, I even got a push button starter on the engine. Thought I had everything behind the bandwheels worked out. I failed to mention that I was using an old rusted, but I think still sharp blade. I am a bit frustrated but sooo close.

She got under it once yesterday, and got under the other bushhog thats hooked to the Massey earlier that day. She loves to kill a rat. She did the same howling deal. I knew she could get out and she did. Dogs are funny.

Okay I got sawmill on the brain and am heading out to see what I can do to fix it.

Thanks and keep it coming.
Fish

fishpharmer · February 07, 2009, 12:11:11 PM

New pictures

Deadheader I did what you said about the string, cept I used a cable. There is a slight, maybe quarter inch toe in. By toe in I mean the inside edges of tires that are near eachother have a gap of 1/4 inch from cable. With new gaurds its hard to tell, but it look likes the faces are parallel.

New control console, throttle, starter and cutoff toggle switch.

I bet if I fix this it will work better. The driveshaft has no small angle. Not sure why I didn't notice this before. That is easy to adjust. The other side is not. Right now I think they line up. But I think I can fix the idler side with what i wrote in green above in this topic.

Thanks for the help everyone.
I appreciate any comments or critiics. Keep it coming.

Fish

Fla._Deadheader · February 07, 2009, 12:22:36 PM

If you have a 1/4" difference on BOTH inside tire walls, that's too much .

We have NO hinge mechanism for adjustment on the idler side. When we tighten down for blade tension, I can change the blade tracking, IF I go too strong on the tension bolt. This is strictly by twisting the frame a LITTLE with the tension bolt.

Are you making all the changes without using the blade guides. If you use the guides, you will never get it sawing right. Adjust the guides as the last thing.

Make SURE the blade is exactly parallel to the bunks, and all bunks are level and parallel.

After you get that crooked shaft aligned, I would bet another hour and you should be making decent boards. 8) Stay with it. 8) 8)

Kelvin · February 07, 2009, 12:36:23 PM

Oh, i wouldn't give up on your mill. I think you will have fun with it, as obviously you like tinkering with things. you'll get there. it helps to have the dynamics in mind when making modifications. I bought Bill Reeks kit, and it was a little light on some of the pointers that i got info on here. Plenty of guys have already done most of what you are having trouble with, so it is a good place to get help.

A neighbor bought my old mill i built, mine was portable on an axle with leveling jacks and all, and hes used it quite a bit, but he's a better engineer then me. I'm more of a woodworker, and my welding sucks!

A sharp blade that rusts will be dull, unless the teeth aren't rusty. Rust is micro pitting, and i'd wager you are going to be fighting an uphill battle with that blade. I'd keep them stored off the mill and run some lube/ WD40 on the blade before you are done running the mill so its coated well. Rust will kill the sharp point. Just like on a plane iron, or chisel. You want all the possible bad elements out of the equation when testing new adjustments. you need a good blade. Bad blade will make even the best mill seem bad, but a good blade will make a crappy mill run better.
Have fun, and good luck,
KP
Keep up with the pictures.

Tom · February 07, 2009, 12:55:28 PM

bandmiller2 · February 07, 2009, 02:01:41 PM

Fish,wile we're at it you should have more belts between the engine and the drive pulley.If the belt is slipping wile your cutting it can cause the band to want to dive and do strange things ,none of them good.When you build your own mill consider it a double dog dare to get it working right.Ask anything you want alot of us have been there too.Frank C.

barbender · February 08, 2009, 08:57:55 AM

When you get everything aligned, you will also need some sort of blade lube, especially with pine. It's actually not lubrication you need, but something to keep the pitch off the blades. I've had blades dive exactly like you describe from pitch buildup.

fishpharmer · February 08, 2009, 10:27:55 AM

A few more photos after some tinkering

gaurds almost complete, 1/2 inch ply will go in the frames front and back of band wheels. 1/8 steel sides and bottoms. Top is lightweight twelve inch wide c channel, about 3/16 thick.

The angle welded on the ends of track if for self propelled cutterhead system I am working on. Looks curved in photo, it isn't, maybe from curve of camera lense.

I thought I had this straight. NOT. I am thinking that maybe my engine tightning and belt drive may have put upward force on the shaft making the bolts slip in the slot. Probably happened before painting. This may exlpain why it cut straight soon after i built it, but not now.

FL deadheader was right on. Thanks to him and all.

Thanks for the links Tom.

Now straight.

Okay ,so my phone battery died or I would have shown wood cutting shots.
The blade still dives but not nearly as bad.

I think it may be the blade now. I am ordering more on Monday.

I have a 1 1/4" blade

What do you think about going to a 1.5 or 2.0 blade? Why or why not?

I know they cost more but if it helps I would try it.

Thanks everyone.

I discovered another issue with bandwheels. The drive side is set almost an inch behind the idler side. Not sure if thats clear.
I mean the drive side bandwheel is an inch closer to the cutter head than the the idler side.

I noticed the I couldn't get the blade to track in the center of both tires at the same time. So I measured from the same point inside each tire.

I can fix this too, just ran out of time yesterday. Will this cause the dive?

Man I Love this forestry forum. 8) 8) ;D 8) ;D

Thanks

Tom · February 08, 2009, 12:03:45 PM

You'll find, as you go along, that stuff is either lined up or it isn't. That goes for the wheels, the band, the bed and the rest of the mill too. You can compensate some with alignment guides, but it sure is easier if you are as close to "right" in the beginning as you can be.

The wider bands may or may not be necessary. I would shoot for the use of the 1 1/4 bands first. Going to wider bands means that you have to consider wider guides and band clearances.

If you can get it to cut with 1 1/4 bands, you are that much money ahead. Keep in mind that the extra money for bands is taken from your bottom line every time you put on a new blade, for the life of the saw.

Blade guides will go a long way toward helping to saw straight. But, don't fall for the trap of "that's good enough" when you feel you can do it better.

fishpharmer · February 08, 2009, 11:16:37 PM

Thanks Tom and everyone. I was hoping I could show some shots of new boards. I didn't have as much time to spend on it today as I planned. I moved the drive side bandtire in and out by sliding driveshaft forward and back thru pillowblocks. Never could get blade to track both tire centers.

Maybe this is why I let it sit 3 yrs.

I am frusrated but still remember it cutting true.

There is tomorrow. Maybe the blade remains the problem. Will soon see.

backwoods sawyer · February 08, 2009, 11:31:19 PM

I like to have a new band on when ever I am making adjustments. It is just one less factor that could be causing the problem.

GF · February 09, 2009, 10:40:31 AM

I was able to set mine in vertical plane by removing the wheels and attaching a straight edge to the hub. Measure from the center of the hub to the top of the straight edge to make sure they are the same on each. Next attach the string with the plumb bob on the small section extended from the top of the straight edge. Measure the distance from the string to where its tied to the front edge of the straight edge on the top. Next measure the bottom of the plumb bob to the bottom front edge of the straight edge, make adjustments until both measurements are the same. Do the same on the next hub without moving the sawmill. This should make both wheels in identical vertical plane. (Sorry for the rough drawing below)

GF

york · February 09, 2009, 01:17:07 PM

Quote from: sawmilllawyer on February 06, 2009, 11:51:21 PM
fishphamer, looked at the Cooks guides and think they are the best buy out there for the money. Stick with it you get the mill running right. Best of everything.

OK,i agree 100%-new setup for my TH-the movable bar stock is 1 by 1 1/2 inch-you get what ya pay for in this world.....

trying to get photo of new setup but having trouble,getting into post..

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fishpharmer · February 10, 2009, 01:21:59 AM

Thanks to everyone again.

Didn't get any mill work done today. Seined catfish all day.

I did order 4 blades from Cooks. 2 Simonds and 2 Supersharp. And a blade alignment tool.
They backed up Tom's recommendation of staying with a 1 1/4 " blade. Said a wider blade could take more tension but needed more HP and was harder to make run true.

I was an easy sell for smaller and cheaper blades.

One thing that the Cooks fella said, was that the rubber tires could take the set out of the blade on the side touching tire and that could cause the dive. Sorta made sense since the set would be on the bottom tooth when cutting and and not the topside, therefore diving. Seems the rubber tire wouldn't be hard enough to take the set out of the inside teeth, to me. Anyway I will keep that in mind if the new bands cut okay and start to dive.

I am starting to get this alignment thing. It should be absolutely required to consult ForestryForum.com before building a sawmill. :(

I guess I am a slow learner. Okay I noticed something the last few days. Beside the fact that the driveshaft was out of line and the band doesn't track in the center of each wheel. I am thinking that my cutterhead frame may be warped a small amount in a diagonal way, I am jumping to conclusions at this point.

I did a little sketch that tries to show how the blade looks compare to the logbunks/tracks, here goes

okay preview is difficult to see.
The blade is not parallel to log bunks.

If everything else is correct, flatness, tension, sharpness , will the blade being a little offkilter from a straight down view affect the cut? Why or why not?

GF I appreciate this instruction, I am not smart enough to figure it out. Got a few questions..

Quote from: GF on February 09, 2009, 10:40:31 AM
I was able to set mine in vertical plane by removing the wheels and attaching a straight edge to the hub.

How do you attach the straight edge? Clamp, lugnut?

Measure from the center of the hub to the top of the straight edge to make sure they are the same on each.

From center of the hub to the top of straight edge on track? I am slow here. Or top of attached straight edge?

I think if I understand the above part the rest will register with me. If the tires are in the same vertical plane but still not 90 degrees from horizontal plane track won't I still have trouble? I know this if for my benefit and do apologize for not comprehending, maybe someone can put it in simpler terms

Next attach the string with the plumb bob on the small section extended from the top of the straight edge. Measure the distance from the string to where its tied to the front edge of the straight edge on the top. Next measure the bottom of the plumb bob to the bottom front edge of the straight edge, make adjustments until both measurements are the same. Do the same on the next hub without moving the sawmill. This should make both wheels in identical vertical plane. (Sorry for the rough drawing below)

GF