Ford V-10 vs Powerstroke Diesel

[pappy19]

For those of us that work in the woods, many have diesel pickups and a few gassers. I recently switched from a Ford Powerstroke diesel to a V-10 gasser. I found this article in a major diesel magazine and it confirmed my thoughts on the ford V-10.





Can a V10 put more power to the ground than a PSD? Through the use of gearing could the superior revving capabilities of the V10, along with the torque multiplication of lower gears, overcome the low end grunt of a diesel? The common consensus among diesel owners is that the gas motor has no chance at towing as well as a diesel. However, I suspect this opinion is based in personal bias. As such I decided to try gathering some empirical data in an attempt to determine whether a V10 can be competitive with a PSD.

Well first we have to think about how the trucks are used and optioned. For this experiment I'm going to look at the truck I'm personally interested in, and the most popular sales wise, a SRW CC. I'm also going to assume the trucks have an auto tranny and 0% drivetrain loss. I know factoring in no drivetrain loss requires us to step out of the real world for a moment, but it's consistent. Still, factoring in drivetrain loss would give the same outcome with different numbers because each combination should have roughly the same amount of parasitic loss. I'm also going to assume the truck is running at highway towing speeds (wanting to maintain between 65-70 mph). I am also going to assume that both trucks are unmodified. Since anything is possible with modding assuming the trucks are stock is the only way to be fair and consistent.

With the aforementioned conditions in mind we must first determine what speeds are possible in each gear. The 6.4 is pretty much out of breath at 3200 RPM, but 3000 RPM is the practical limit. The V10 makes its peak power at 4750RPM but pulls strong all the way to 5200RPM. The following speed determinations are made with 275/65R20 (stock size with 20 inch wheels) tires. These are the speeds that would be run in each gear, with the given rear axle ratio, and the given RPM:

5R110W - 3.55 gears at 3000RPM
1st (3.11) 27mph
2nd (2.22) 38mph
3rd (1.55) 55mph
4th (1.00) 85mph
5th (0.71) 120mph

5R110W - 3.73 gears at 3000RPM
1st (3.11) 26mph
2nd (2.22) 36mph
3rd (1.55) 52mph
4th (1.00) 81mph
5th (0.71) 114mph

5R110W – 4.10 gears at 4750RPM
1st (3.11) 37mph
2nd (2.22) 52mph
3rd (1.55) 75mph
4th (1.00) 117mph
5th (0.71) 175mph

5R110W – 4.30 gears at 4750RPM
1st (3.11) 36mph
2nd (2.22) 50mph
3rd (1.55) 72mph
4th (1.00) 111mph
5th (0.71) 152mph

ZF – 3.73 gears at 3000RPM
Low (5.79) 14mph
1st (3.30) 24mph
2nd (2.10) 38mph
3rd (1.30) 62mph
4th (1.00) 81mph
5th (0.72) 113mph

ZF - 4.30 gears at 4750RPM
Low (5.79) 19mph
1st (3.30) 33mph
2nd (2.10) 53mph
3rd (1.30) 86mph
4th (1.00) 111mph
5th (0.72) 155mph

4R100 - 3.73:1 gears at 3000RPM
1st (2.71) 30mph
2nd (1.53) 53mph
3rd (1.00) 81mph
4th (0.71) 114mph


2008 V10 (362 hp – 457 ft/lbs): produces about 80% of its peak torque (peak 457 ft/lbs, 80% of which is 366 ft/lbs) between 1000 and 4750RPM.

2008 6.4 (350 hp – 650 ft/lbs): produces about 80% of its peak torque (peak 650 ft/lbs, 80% of which is 520 ft/lbs) between 1300 and 3000RPM.

2004 6.0 (325 hp – 560 ft/lbs): produces about 80% of its peak torque (peak 560 ft/lbs, 80% of which is 452 ft/lbs) between 1300 and 3000RPM.

2002 7.3 (250 hp – 500 ft/lbs): produces about 80% of its peak torque (peak 500 ft/lbs, 80% of which is 400 ft/lbs) between 1200 and 3000RPM.

The following maximum torque output was calculated by multiplying the torque by the rear axle ratio and the transmission gear ratio:

2008 V10 w/4.10 (366 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1065 ft/lbs
2008 V10 w/4.10 (366 ft/lbs) in 4th gear = 1500 ft/lbs
2008 V10 w/4.10 (366 ft/lbs) in 3rd gear = 2326 ft/lbs
2008 V10 w/4.30 (366 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1117 ft/lbs
2008 V10 w/4.30 (366 ft/lbs) in 4th gear = 1573 ft/lbs
2008 V10 w/4.30 (366 ft/lbs) in 3rd gear = 2439 ft/lbs

2008 6.4 w/3.55 (520 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1311 ft/lbs
2008 6.4 w/3.55 (520 ft/lbs) in 4th = 1846 ft/lbs
2008 6.4 w/3.73 (520 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1377 ft/lbs
2008 6.4 w/3.73 (520 ft/lbs) in 4th = 1940 ft/lbs

2004 6.0 w/3.73 (452 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1180 ft/lbs
2004 6.0 w/3.73 (452 ft/lbs) in 4th gear = 1686 ft/lbs

2002 7.3 w/3.73 (400 ft/lbs) in overdrive = 1044 ft/lbs
2002 7.3 w/3.73 (400 ft/lbs) in 4th gear = 1492 ft/lbs


If we look at the maximum practical numbers (lowest gears possible to maintain highway speeds along with the lowest rear gears) the V10 puts down 20% more power to the ground than the 6.4, 31% more than the 6.0, and 39% more than the 7.3. Based on these numbers it appears that the V10 has the ability to put down significantly more power than the diesels if its greatest advantage, the ability to rev much higher, is exploited.

Does this mean that the V10 will "out pull" the diesels? On paper it would appear that it can tow just as well, if not better. But these are just calculations. Real world testing would be the only true way of determining such a feat.

*Truck Trend actually did a real world towing test back in 2008 that included all gas trucks, and all diesel pickups towing the same bumper-pull trailer. The V-10 beat all commers except for the Ford 6.4 towing up an 11% grade and then only by 50 feet.


SID297

[Brad_S.]

What is overlooked in this test is the fuel consumed to accomplish the same task. When my 7.3 was in the shop for any reason, I borrowed a friends V10. While I was thankful to be able to use his truck and keep working, at the same time, I dreaded it because it would cost me so much extra to run his truck. The gas engine got significantly less mileage per gallon than the diesel. Add in the added maintenance costs and I don't even think there is a contest here.

[Gary_C]

Wow Pappy, you sure did a lot of analysis on that. 

A guy here locally that wanted to get into the business of hauling cattle with a gooseneck trailer bought a new Ford F350 with a V-10 engine because he was afraid of the starting problems with a diesel in the winter. He had it about three months before he took a big hit financially and traded for a new Powerstroke version. Said he just could not compete with the others because of the reduced fuel economy of that V-10.

And as far as pulling power, yes you can get more power by reving an engine higher since HP is determined by torque times RPM's and a gasser with shorter stroke can be revved higher. But what is most important in pulling loads with a truck is the torque that diesels excell in producing, even at lower RPM"s. The torque is what will pull you down the road up hills and down at a steady speed. Gas engines just cannot match that type of pulling torque at any where near the same fuel economy.

So yes you can say the V-10 will out accelerate and out pull a diesel, but for long term pulling down the road at a steady speed, you just can't match a diesel. And I don't know much about the longevity of those larger gas engines, but my semi with a Cummings M-11 engine has one million and thirty thousand miles on it without an overhaul. It's had a head gasket replaced, some injectors replaced, and oil leaks fixed, but no major work. Don't know if you could ever match that with a gasser.

[pappy19]

I can not take any credit for the above statistics and information as it came from a diesel magazine and I just copied it. However, one reply above stated that the downside of the V-10 was the low gas mileage. He doesn't say what year his friend's V-10 was, but I can tell you all that from 2006 when the 5 speed TorqueShift tranny was used on the V-10, that normal mileage solo, is around 11 mpg with the 4.10 rear and 18" wheels. The new diesels with their "sootbag" and regen, they don't get much better mileage. I'm hearing 12-13 on a good day. When you figure that the diesel engines cost $7000 more up front than a V-10, I can buy a heck of alot of gas for that difference. Also, my oil changes run about $30, cheaper if I do it myself; fuel filter is $15 vs $100+ for the diesel. I don't have to worry about cold weather, water in my fuel or any other "normal" diesel issues that I used to contend with.

I know alot of folks like the diesel pickups cause their other equipment are diesels, and that's a good reason. While larger diesel engines definately have the longer mileage history, diesel pickups, in all brands, rarely make it past 200k w/o some issues. Cummins diesels are notorious for injector pumps going bad and cost $1500 to replace. I can get a totallly rebuilt V-10 for $2000 and have another 60k warranty for that kind of money. Look at the Ford 6.0 leaker, it has over 100 TSB's for problems with injectors, blackbox re-flash, etc. Duramax has also had it's share of problems. The V-10 hasn't had a TSB since around 2002 when Ford fixed the spark plug issue. I used to be a diesel engine fan, but I have been converted to a V-10 after 2 years and 50k on my 2008 F-250.

[Larry]

I bought my PSD new in '97.  Nephew bought a V10 year or so later...I think his truck would out pull my truck by a mite.  His mileage was half of what I was getting :( :(...he didn't keep his truck long...I'm still driving my truck...and hope to for quite a few more years.

I would most certainly go with whatever got the best mileage...$4 gas most surly is still lurking.

[ely]

we run the f350 at work, single wheel one ton.  it stays loaded heavy and averages 10 miles to the gallon.

i own the 8.1 liter gmc 3/4 ton and it is getting the same milage as that with nothing in it. i am sort of scared to hook up the airboat to it.

does anyone know if you get better fuel econmoy with a new chip in the 8.1 liter, or if they even make a chip for it.

[pappy19]

Couldn't tell from your post if your F-350 was gas or diesel or what year and I'm not familiar with GM engines but a friend of mine just added an Edge programmer to his GM gas truck. He hasn't had the programmer in long enough to give any advice.

[sprucebunny]

Maybe I missed something but the list of "ft/lbs" output (last list) only compared the V-10 with a 4.30 rear gear ratio to a diesel with a 3.73 ratio. That's not apples to apples.

In my personal experience, a Dodge V-10 got 5 miles a gallon towing a trailer weighing 12,000 pounds that my 1990 naturally aspirated Ford 7.3 International diesel F350 towed at 11 mpg.

[pappy19]

BIG difference between the Dodge V-10 and the new Ford V-10. Towing heavy, I have never got less than 9 mpg, and that's up mountains and doing 80 on the interstates. No bull. Solo, I have not gotten better than 13 mpg, but all things considered, that is still mo-betta than alot of diesels. Not knocking diesels as they have their place and if you have one, I am happy for you. I am just saying that the Ford V-10 gasser is one heck of a tow rig and isn't as finiky as the diesels that I have had in the past, nor is the maintenance and fuel costs as high as a diesel. Next time you want to get a new rig, just think hard on the V-10....if you can find one.

[shinnlinger]

Up thru 2007, Diesel was a more efficient  engine.  Since then, the EPA has mandated injecting fuel in the exhaust stoke and now diesels are getting gas job mileage.  I wonder why someone would pay the extra $$$ for a diesel these days when  the mileage is so bad. 

I understand Cat is ceasing on road engine production because they haven't found a way around the new EPA standards.  HOw will that effect all of us???

That said, I run a 02 f-350 powerjoke daily and it treats me right.  My cousin had a v-10 in his and he loved  his motor until he too got a powerjoke....  If you don't drive  it much, a v-10 will get it done just fine.

[pappy19]

When you say if you don't drive it much, do you mean more than 300,000 miles?? Actually, the average 6.8 V-10 goes over 150,000 w/o any problems and most go over 200,000. If you take care of it, I see 300,000 ,iles, no problem. I have talked to numerous V-10 owners with well over 150,000 miles and never had it in the shop. Not many diesel engine owners can say that, no matter what crate it came out of.

[stonebroke]

I went from a 1990 460 ford f350 to a 2000 powerstroke and increased my mileage from 6 to 12 1/2 miles per gallon, same trailer same loads. more hill climbing ability

Stonebroke

[ladylake]

There's no way you should run the V10 at 4700 RPM very long. It's the torque at normal engine speeds that counts, which the diesel wins hands down.   Steve

[shinnlinger]

Pappy,  what I meant was the economy of a v-10 vs diesel in the long haul.  The v-10 is a good motor, it just isn't as cheap to run as an 07 or older diesel, day to day.  If I only hauled a horsetrailer once a month I would say get a v-10.  In fact if I were buying  a brand new truck I would proably get a gas job for the reasons prevously stated.

[jesse]

$2000 for a rebuilt engine seems a little low just seen an ad in local paper for a 5.4 ford $2195. i do not see the v10 running 200,000 miles spending much time running 4750 plus rpm

[logwalker]

All this makes my 1994 IDI Ford w/ factory turbo getting 18 mpg look pretty good to me. I am going to keep my eye out for a low mile 7.3 powerstroke for my next victim. Joe

[Ironwood]

I hada 460 before my 7.3 PSD. I miss the quiet power of the gasser. I also miss the carefree nature of a gas engine (gelling, and now lubricity additive) I do think the older 7.3's are the best thing going, except perhaps a Allison behind a chevy diesel (good combo, just dont like the rest of the Chevy package). I almost bought a F-550 V10, needed an engine, after the mileage horror stories I opted out.

I plan on rebuilding or dropping a second 7.3 in when/ if mine goes.

        Ironwood

[Toolman]

I concur with Shinnlinger. These new diesels(2007 - present) are junk. Their mileage is no better than gassers. It's not worth the extra expense of the fuel. My 2003 PSD puts these new diesels to shame. The mileage and power can't compare to pre 2007 models....It's a Dang shame!

[shinnlinger]

I understand the 03-07 6.0 powerjokes aren't too bad either once you drop some ARP head bolts in them and new head gaskets.  With a emission delete kit the get 30 mpg AND can smoke the tires WHILE it pulls your house down the road.  If you find a screaming deal on an 6.0 you might think about it....

[rebocardo]

The last post makes a good point. The V-10s are at about their max. limit for power, for a gas V-8 engine it is pretty much impossible to get beyond 1.3 HP for each cubic inch N/A. The Ford diesels, 7.3 and up,  are seriously under tuned and it does not take much to make another 200 HP. The real limiting factor is the exhaust temperature.

A 7.3 with a 5 speed probably gets 20+ mph highway with no load.

[Norm]

I loved my 01 7.3 powerstroke. I'd get 16-18mpg without a load and not much worse with one. The one thing bad thing it was like all ford's and the front end sucked. I traded up to the 08 powerstroke and get if I'm lucky 15mpg but they finally made a truck that rides and drives like a dream. We took it on a long drive and was amazed at how comfy it was.

[james]

now less see , my truck empty gets about 7mpg loaded 3-5 mpg(depends if loaded is 80,000 or 120000 gross)07 kw ,cat c-15 ,475 hp 1850 ft/lbs torque (06 engine)  lt weight es 35k with a flatbed , 45k with the lowboy
james ;D ;D

[Gary_C]

now less see , my truck empty gets about 7mpg loaded 3-5 mpg(depends if loaded is 80,000 or 120000 gross)07 kw ,cat c-15 ,475 hp 1850 ft/lbs torque (06 engine)  lt weight es 35k with a flatbed , 45k with the lowboy
james ;D ;D

My old 96 Int with a lowly M-11, 330 HP gets almost 7 MPG round trip with anywhere from 80,000 to 92,400 lbs of pulp wood and 30,000 lbs empty.  :D :D

[amberwood]

Mack 1990 ValueLiner, E7 400hp, 48l/100km.20000kg empty including the crane.42500kg loaded.Funnily enough right on 7mpg.

DTR

[pappy19]

Yep, and none of those diesel engines are in pickups, that's my point.