not quite a timber frame

[Larry]

I don't know what I was thinking last night...there called lookouts.

[dukndog]

Might want to mix up some vinegar and spray on the mold. It should "kill" it. If not, then I know bleach will...I just hate the ammonia smell!!!
Glad the heavy equip guys are running behind for ya!! Sometimes being slow is a blessing!!!! I used a lift painting and trimming some time back, rented it for the weekend, paid for it in advance, called em on Monday to pick it up, they showed up the following Monday!!! Got 10 days rental for 2!!! I tink I had to put diesel in it twice!!
Good Luck!!

Rich Miller

[Magicman]

Mine came from Reed's Metal here in Brookhaven.  He has several other outlets, but I'm not sure where.  Will you screw it down to the OSB, or use lathing to create an air space?

[ljmathias]

Yeah, guys, it's great to get a little lagniape (sp?) now and then, and I am sure using the forklift to get more roofing on...

MM, I'm of two minds about the strapping on the roof under the metal.  Several metal supplier sites online indicate that it's not needed.  On the other hand, the air space should help cool in the summer and the lathing makes it a lot easy to screw down- definitely screws, but trying to find the truss tops under the felt will be a real time waster even if I snap lines. Any comments from others out there?  What's been the recommendations from the manufacturers and what's been your experience?  Any advice would be welcome.   

Son whose a plumber just installed an LG individual room heat and cooling system- 3 room unit with very small and quiet units hung on the walls like large picture frames plus the almost silent compressor run about $4,000- considerably less then the ducted system we'd been pricing with an HVAC installer.  Anyone have experience with these? More energy efficient (as claimed)? Definitely easier to install (he just did one and could help do the new house easy), and with individual room controls, seems like it would save a bunch on utilities.  Again, any advice or comments are welcome.

Lj

[Magicman]

Lj, I would want to talk with the roofing people.  I do know that when metal roofing is placed over asphalt shingles they always use 1X4 lathing.  I know for smoothness, but to me, ventilation is very important.

In my instance, I used 2X4 lathing nailed to the rafters.  The reflective backed foam was nailed to the underside of the lathing.  This provided 1½" of ventilation space under the roofing and also prevents the fiberglass insulation from contacting the roofing thus impeding ventilation.

[Larry]

I've been using Central States 29 gauge metal for the last 10 years.  26 gauge reserved for commercial and boat docks due to wider spaced purlins.  I picked them because they have a state of the art plant just down the road a bit, the price is right, and the warranty while not the best is close with 40 years on paint.  Kynar (sp) paint is the best but expensive...used it once on a shed roof.  The metal must be installed per manufacture guidelines so they will honor the warranty.  They will have a pdf with guidelines and I notice they change over time and with each manufacture.

House roof last year was installed over 30 pound felt into osb with screws on the flat.  Shop roof was installed 8 years ago over Dow Blue Cor into 2 X 4 purlins 2' OC.  Again screws on the flat.  Both the house and shop are the same metal...the shop shows the same color but is a flatter pitch and dust/pollen doesn't wash off as easy with the rain.

First house roof I did was about 20 years ago with real standing seam.  Screws went into the seam with a metal cap over the screws.  Roof sheathing was osb.  The roof still looks near as good as installed with no leaks (as of a few months ago).  Minor chalking because we use grey.  I can't remember the gauge or who made it but I do remember the cost...about the most expensive roof you can buy and it took forever to get it on.  I would never spend that kind of money again but it was impressive.  Probably a pic in my gallery.

Only advice I can give is pre-drill and don't mash the washers down on the screws.  Just a little pucker is needed.

Can't help on the HVAC...the house I'm building now is my first on a slab and I've found out they perform a lot different than a house with a basement.

[Holmes]

I just went to a class on Mitsubishi mini split heating / ac systems and I installed a few Daikin units last year. These units would be a great way to heat and cool the new house.  They have been doing this in Europe and Asia for years. They are very efficient and you may get some tax credits or rebates.

Son whose a plumber just installed an LG individual room heat and cooling system- 3 room unit with very small and quiet units hung on the walls like large picture frames plus the almost silent compressor run about $4,000- considerably less then the ducted system we'd been pricing with an HVAC installer.  Anyone have experience with these? More energy efficient (as claimed)? Definitely easier to install (he just did one and could help do the new house easy), and with individual room controls, seems like it would save a bunch on utilities.  Again, any advice or comments are welcome.

Lj

[beenthere]

Holmes
Do you have a link to the split system?

[Qweaver]

I've used metal roof on our cabin and the 6 sheds that we have built over the last five years.  I now wish that I had used standing seam on the cabin.  We have had two leaks on the cabin and getting up on the steep cabin roof is a real challenge.  I'm seriously considering replacing the cabin steel with standing seam.  I don't want to deal with a leaking roof in my old age.

Quinton

[ljmathias]

Quinton: I've had a leak in my metal covered barn but it was my own doing- left too much gap at the top for hot air venting and water blows up inside during a storm.  Do you know where your leak is and from what?  I put a metal roof on my son's house- about a 5/12 but no breaks other than vents- and it has worked perfectly.

After reading more on the subject and taking into account the need to be able to walk and work safely during install, I'm going to put down 1X4 lathing as fastening points and to allow better air circulation.  I'm assuming the ribs on the metal allow enough air to flow up and out the ridge vent during hot days- anyone know if that's true or not?

Anyway, the forklift will leave today so I'm off to try to finish up as much roof sheathing as possible before they claim it.  It makes a world of difference hoisting the sheets up to just where I need them rather than having to arm-power them there, especially considering it's a 7/12 slope that I can just barely walk on, although not safely enough for my taste- always have one hand ready to grab the sheet that's next to me except when I'm lifting one to flop down in the spacers, and that takes two hands, two feet and a skyhook!

Lj

[WDH]

I am having a metal roof put on my house.  It will be put down with 1x4 lathe on two foot spacing like you described.  The air does circulate up through the ribs.  Supposed to make for a cooler attic and better energy efficiency.

[Magicman]

Quinton: I've had a leak in my metal covered barn but it was my own doing- left too much gap at the top for hot air venting and water blows up inside during a storm.   Lj

Lj, I don't have a picture to illustrate but the top edge of the top sheet (under the ridge cap) should be bent up.  The result is a ¾" "flange" that is vertical and will stop wind blown rain.  I have a special handheld tool that is used to bend that edge up.

I'll try to remember to take a picture this week.

[Magicman]

I'm going to put down 1X4 lathing as fastening points and to allow better air circulation.  I'm assuming the ribs on the metal allow enough air to flow up and out the ridge vent during hot days- anyone know if that's true or not?  Lj

Absolutely.

[pineywoods]

Safety tip for metal roofing. Wear soft sole shoes and always put your foot on top of a screw head. The screw will dig into the soft shoe and keep your foot from slipping. For rain blowing up under the roof cap, my supplier has soft foam 1 inch X 3 ft strips with notches cut out for the ridges. Goes between the top of the roofing sheet and the ridge cap. 3 hurricanes and no leaks yet.

[witterbound]

I'd spray the mold with a mixture of 50 percent bleach and 50 percent water. 

[Larry]

I've used the foam strips three times.  The first time the adhesive failed and the strips blew out with the wind.  They got that fixed now.

7/12 pitch is scary for me.  I use a safety harness on osb and won't tread on metal.  The pros have no problem with 7/12 pitch.  It gets a lot slicker when covered with pollen and that's hard to see/detect.

Couldn't get the metal up on one side of our house without kinking because it was way to long.  A trick is to roll it and fasten with a rubber tarp strap on each end.  I've also have a modified vise-grip with a rope loop welded on.  Grip the metal just on the edge and pull it up.

[Magicman]

Piney, that "top closure" material will also eliminate your ridge top ventilation and only allow air and moisture to escape out of the gable ends.  Personally, I would rather flair the roof ends up and maintain the ventilation along the entire ridge cap.

I use "bottom closure" above the fascia to prevent wasp from entering, but I install vents underneath the eves to provide an entrance for fresh air.

[ljmathias]

You just answered two questions I was about to ask- but for the life of me, I can't see how to bend the ribbed metal that I use- one reason it's strong and wind resistant is that it doesn't bend easily, and if it does, it's a mess.

I was going to end seal with the gasket stuff and use the hardiboard soffit with pre-drilled holes for ventilation- that stuff is a pain to put up, and you absolutely must have two people to do it or you end up with lots of broken pieces, but it lasts forever, is fire and bug proof, and seldom needs re-painting once you have it finished: trade-offs, but I've seen what carpenter bees can do to wood soffits, even painted ones, at my daughter's house.  They are riddled with holes and tubes, and the whole set of soffits will need replacing before she can sell it.  More work but other things first...

Lj

[ljmathias]

Just an update on metal roofing- talked to the local supplier and he sent me to their main website: centralsteelmfg.com, or you can go directly to the pdf file of the results of a USSteel study:
http://www.centralstatesmfg.com/UserFiles/File/ACQ%20Pressure%20Treated%20Lumber.pdf

Key points are these: do NOT apply metal roofing over pressure treated lumber- corrosion is accelerated, as shown in the article above; and it is better to put down 1X4 lathing for air circulation, otherwise the heat is reflected down into the sheathing and attic, and this reduces the life of the underlayment as well.

Lj

[Magicman]

- but for the life of me, I can't see how to bend the ribbed metal that I use-  Lj 

I'll try to remember to take some pictures.  You do not bend the rib, just the flats.

[Larry]

Lot of different ways to skin this cat.  Might also depend on how your trusses are made...mind are tailless and flat out to the end which made it simple.  I made 6" "V" panel pine for the soffit and was planing to vent with 1 1/2" aluminum extrusion.  At the last minute I got cold feet because of my age and the maintenance issue.  Next idea was to brake aluminum and use the pre-formed aluminum vent panels.  I backed out on that idea also because matching aluminum on the gable end looks...so aluminum. 

Finally just said do it.



Hardi boards under the gutter match Hardi boards on the gable end...and it looks like rough cedar to tie in with the deck.  Aluminum vents from the Hardi to the brick.  Could have used vinyl.  Either way it's an easy install.  I knocked together a thingy to cut the aluminum.  I may have a picture if your interested...worked as well as the thousand dollar thingys.

Central States is where I mentioned earlier that I have been getting my metal.  I've visited in there factory and they said they will brake me any shape I desire if I have a unusual situation.  Real nice folks.  They do have a distribution network called Metal Central along with private distributors.  If you can, get price quotes from both but make sure you don't tell Metal Central as there may be a non-compete clause in your area.

MM, I don't know what they sell your way but what I used on the ridge most definitely vents and is rainproof.  They make one brand that is corrugated that you can actually see through but keeps the rain out.

[ljmathias]

Thanks for the great update on metal roofing- still got some investigating to do but plan to order this week or next at the latest.... got to finish roof prep first.   >:(

Speaking of which, been so busy that I haven't had time or energy to post... and that's pretty tired.  Trying like crazy to get water protection so we can stop the mold and let things dry out on the inside- got a little shower last night and more predicted for today, dang it.   :(

Anyway, the beloved forklift wandered away on Monday, leaving an empty place in my heart and lots more muscle work to finish up the roof... last pictures of it hoisting up sheathing for the north side roof.  Also used it to get the first two rows down on the south side- what a life saver!  Drop on that side is 12' straight down and I really, really don't like having my toes on the edge of a roof that high while I wrestle a 4X8' sheet of OSB into place.  Using the forklift, I could stand back from the edge some and slide the sheets into place- slow and professionals would have laughed their heads off, but I'm still here and in one piece, no broken bones although lots of cuts and splinters...   :D



Seems hard to believe we only had the forklift for two weeks and went from first floor frame only to having the bent up and all the trusses raised and braced.  Just goes to show what modern machinery can do for you. 8)  Also strange that, while I had the forklift which was pretty darn expensive to rent, I felt unending urgency to maximize use of it for everything I could think of, and actually did pretty much.  Would have liked to finish the roof decking, but at least got a good start on that.  Now that the forklift is history for this house, a new urgency to get it dried in has taken over.  Seems like it's one urgency after another, but that's the way houses get built, in my experience...   

Next picture show the flying barge rafters done on one side of the house.  These were a real pain, standing at the top of an extension ladder, holding the unit up in place with one hand, hanging onto the ladder with one hand, and hoisting up the nail gun to get that first crucial nail in place so I can let go of it and hang on with both hands...   Anyway, got those done and they look pretty straight and flat.



This picture shows the fill-in rafter work to bridge from the north side trusses to the south side ones over the stairwell- still haven't figured out why the truss engineer couldn't have done this but it was no big deal- had plenty to nail to on either side.  Used three strong backs made up from a 2X4 nailed to a 2X6, with the east end squeezed in between truss components and nailed to two of them and the west end butt joined to the trusses on that side.  Both sides had doubled trusses for strength.  Laid 2X4's on top of these, screwed them tight with 8" log screws and ring-shank nails, and they were nice and solid.  Had a 34" bridge on the south side of the ridge board, and that also helped make it strong.  Got a row of sheathing laid on top of this section and everything felt rigid under foot.



Also got the last two dormer trusses that had been missed by the manufacturer- they whipped them up within hours after my call, another good reason to use local sources if possible.  Went and picked them up Friday afternoon, used my "extra" time on the forklift to hoist them up and get them in place but didn't finish nailing and screwing them down till Monday morning.  They're the two on the outside, the gable trusses for the dormer roof and absolutely necessary for adding on the flying barge rafters (I like that term- combines the two names I've run across for these and sounds like something substantial, doesn't it?) for the dormers to keep rain from hitting at the intersection of the dormer wall with the roof.



Here's the really good news- started putting down felt and lathing on the north side on Monday.  Really need to get this place dried in as soon as I can.  Enough for today, off to get a start on finishing up the decking and felting and lathing, then maybe things can settle down some.  Found out last night that my grandson's Boy Scout troupe is making a trip to Florida to watch the last shuttle launch... ever. :  So we're going along to watch history in the making, and maybe to relax a few days.  Problem is, I have to have the roof prep finished before we go so when we get back, metal roofing can go on... but at least that's an urgency that can move with slow, deliberate haste.  ;D

Lj

[ljmathias]

Forgot to mention our newest animal visitor, one we haven't seen in years and really can't have around with all the grandkids out playing all day.  As they get older and explore more, it's more likely they would run across such critters.  Sad to say, like too many Americans, local extermination seems to be our only answer and this is actually leading to a sad situation for these poor creatures- they're disappearing from the landscape, and we really do need them around for pest control and because God gave them to us for a reason...   :P



Here's a close up that you would almost never see in reality- they are shy creatures, who would rather run away than stay and argue domain possession with humans.  The picture shows a tiny hole- Son is a good shot with a 22 pistol.  Since this is such a rare occurrence on our land, son Josh decided to try and preserve as much of him as he could- skinned him and nailed the skin to dry (and will treat with borax to harden it up), cut the head off and put that someplace very safe to let the flesh decay away after which he'll bleach and very, very carefully detail it (their venom can remain active for years, we found out), and put the carcass with the skeleton in a fire ant bed, hoping to have them finally do something useful and clean the bones so he can mount the whole skeleton if it stays intact.



Back to decking and roofing... yesterday was a good day even though we took off for a family lunch.  Only got 3 hours in on the morning shift, but came back later as it cooled and did a bunch more.  Result was that the northern half of the roof is completely decked, covered in felt and striped with lathing for the metal roof!  Finally getting somewhere!   8)



I'm not sure how you all do these steps but I think I mentioned that I use glue and hurriquake nails to get the decking down secure.  The combination should be much more effective at preventing that initial motion caused by major wind (which we have) or earthquake (which we haven't had for a hundred years and then not around here).  If you can keep everything tight and stiff, they don't get worse, but if that little bit of initial movement takes place, it just gets bigger and bigger with each gust of high-energy wind till things are really shaking and moving around.  Anyway, despite the trouble of working with too-hot and drippy glue running everywhere and leaking out of the glue gun between sheets, the decking went down well.

Tried two approaches to trimming the edges, both of which I've used before with less confidence: put the decking on and trim in place, or measure the last piece carefully and have it just fit to the edge.  My increasing dislike of heights was apparent when I put down the east run up to the peak: found myself very uncomfortable snapping lines and running the skil saw down to drop the extra off.   :  Went back to the more time consuming but much more comfortable for me process of taking careful measurements, going inside to cut that piece and then hoisting into place and fastening it down.  Even careful measurements can sometimes be off a little, especially when you're urgently trying to get 'er done, and I did have to trim a little off two pieces over the course of the day, but well worth it and much easier when you can see and feel the extra sticking out.  

Did realize that of the two methods I'm experimenting with on flying barge rafters, putting the little shelf on the extension for a 2X to sit on and then be nailed/screwed into them is the way to go.  Just having the 1X6 soffitt hanging there is not enough support and doesn't give a nice clean nailing target- hard to hit when you're reaching out past your comfort level to fasten it.

Just to finish up on methods here, two points to discuss: tacking down felt and nailing down lathing.  I've used the button nails that a roofer friend said was the best way to hold down the felt till you get roofing on, but he only does shingle roofs.  With metal roofs and lathing under (which I did on my son's house), I found that the buttons were often in the place I wanted the lathing to lay flat on the roof.  Also, button tacks are a real pain to put down, both in the process and the actual pain involved- if you're not mindful, you rub the skin off the back of the two fingers you use to hold and position the nails, and since your fingers are right there and such beautiful targets, an occasional hammer blow to remind them of who's boss is bound to happen.  And finally, they're really slow...  >:(  With lathing going down immediately, and the need for a flat surface to put it on, I just use a coil roofing gun now to hold the felt in place: not cheap but what a time and frustration saver (not to mention safety and pain).  Holding down the trigger and popping the gun, I can put down three nails in a row faster than I can pick up a hammer- just have to be very careful not to "pop" a body part that might get in the way. :-\



The detail picture below shows the roofing nails plus part of a lathing strip- I nail these down with galvanized ring shanks so they stay in place till the metal roof goes on.  Thin boards like these (1X4's) are prone to warping with rain and dew, and I even nail the ends down whether they fall on a truss top or not.  Final picture shows the lathing jig I use, actually two of them for both ends of a board.  I set them up carefully to be exactly 2' between the middle slot and the top, and with a little overhang at the bottom to help hold them in place.  This way I can position exactly two boards at a time to nail down.  After one end is nailed, I move the spacer to the next truss and line it up with the nails on the rows below- allows fast and accurate nail-down to the trusses themselves and not just to the OSB.  Oh, and I only do one row of felt at a time so I can still see the nails above it showing the truss locations.  Last, I leave a gap between board ends so rain can find a path down without just sitting there warping the boards and trying to find a way in...  Sorry if you don't want all the nitty gritty details, but someone thinking about doing this themselves might benefit from all my mistakes and trials over the years...  :D





Time for work, and I missed dawn to get this down- if I don't do it every day, it becomes too big a task and hard to get back on track with it.  Someday my kids might like to read about this project, maybe, and perhaps try building on their own (if I'm not still around and bugging them, willing and able to help as well  :( ).

Lj

[WDH]

Sometimes you get help that you don't need.  Unfortunate for your unwanted visitor, but some places are definitely off limits, especially with the little tykes running around. 

As I mentioned, I am getting a metal roof, but I am too old, or maybe too wise, to do it myself  .

[ljmathias]

WDH- sure was sad to see that beautiful snake meet its end; found out it was probably more then 10 years old, which means it managed to avoid contact with automobiles and humans for a long time.  Oh, well, life goes on...

I sympathize with you on not wanting to climb around up in the air- and if your house is as steep or steeper than the one I'm walking around on with great trepidation (7/12), than you have good cause.  I was very nervous up there until I finally got a couple rows of lathing laid down- at least something to catch with my toes should gravity win the fight and pull me towards a more stable place closer to the center of the earth.    

Standing up with something to wrap your feet around or onto makes all the difference.  In fact, managed to get in 5 hours worth of work today before it got too hot and I got worn out.  Finished up two of four sections on the south roof- just have a small section 5' wide next to the west dormer and then the dormers themselves.  Still need to fab up the gable overhangs, then put down decking, felt and lathing... should only take a day or two and we'll be (mostly) in the black and mostly dry.  Only problem is the temperature- been at 98 since early after lunch and still that hot now at 6 pm.  So much for the "evening shift" in the cool of the afternoon- I can't drink fast enough to stay ahead of the heat.  Tried to give blood this afternoon- desperate shortage this summer- and my blood count was too low, either because I'm drinking too much and diluting the red cells or not eating enough iron-rich food.  Wife bought some chicken livers- yumm!  :D - so we'll have those for lunch tomorrow and maybe even breakfast.  Double yumm!  :D :D

Lj