Log Prices?

[livemusic]

Not a logger...

What are examples of exotics?

[YellowHammer]

I agree it's odd.  The KD we buy is at the very high end of FAS, 95% to 100% clear, with a minimum wane, same as for all our wood we have to buy.  So there is a premium markup there, buts it's still sold as FAS.  One of the reasons I can't purchase FAS locally even though there are a lot of mills here is that they grade to minimum specs of FAS at 83% and we reject unless it is 95% our better.  The logs we buy in RO are basically veneer butt logs but when we run out of wood I've sawn, I have to buy elsewhere.  I asked one of the mill owners to grade higher for me and he said that was his margin so wouldn't do it.

H

Here is the little jag 8/4 rock maple and 6/4 red oak delivered Wednesday.  Basically zero knots, minimal wane.  As I mentioned, we are out and need some supply for the Thanksgiving weekend shoppers.

Here is the reminder of a pallet of 4/4 soft maple here, on top. Again sold as FAS but with very few defects.  This came form Pennsylvania:




Here is the one that really lit me up last week.  I saw and sell non steamed walnut but also sell steamed walnut (some customers prefer it to match existing furniture) provided through a big distributer, who usually gets it from Missouri.  Anyway, they were completely out of 4/4 steamed or unsteamed 4/4 walnut, but the last price I paid was $8.80 per bdft.  So I had to backslide and get some steamed from a local source near Nashville, 2 hours away, and they send FAS grade, for about $7 per bdft.  Well, I got what I usually get from "normal" walnut mills here, which is why I don't like buying from them, FAS with a lot of sapwood.  I know sapwood isn't a defect (up to point) in NHLA rules, but woodworkers will not buy it.  When they buy walnut, they want purple, not white.  So we don't sell sapwood, and we had to clean this mess up yesterday and will lose a lot on edge drop.  Total net price?  I don't even want to think about it.



    

 Exotics are purple heart, mahogany, red grandis, zebra wood sand such.

[mudfarmer]

Looking at a price sheet from one buyer, last month and this month--
hard maple, soft maple and white oak down a bit ($25-75 per Mbf depending on grade), some staying the same (cherry, ash, red oak), yellow birch jumped $50 on all grades.

Looking at a different buyer, hard maple and ash are down, but again with yellow birch taking a bump up.

Checking my records I sold #1/#2 hard maple last winter for $50 more per mbf than what prices are currently, which is what the price was last month. Prime HM price is the same as I sold for last year.  Cherry is $50/mbf more now than it was then.

Love to follow this thread, always learning

[stavebuyer]

 I understand if you need the best of the best, a premium would be involved but take RO for example. In green lumber there is only about a $300 spread between 2&3 and FAS. They can pull the premiums for you and sell the rest of the FAS for flooring at half what you are being charged. Somebody somewhere has an I-dry or needs one to sort and dry you some lumber.

There are mills right now that can't even get a PO for FAS RO green. I'd be joining some state associations or take a few independent lumber brokers fishing. There are small mills around that would be perfect suppliers for those kinds of orders.

[YellowHammer]

Maybe lumber brokers, but the ones I've talked to are not ones I want to have a business relationship with.  At least the ones I know.  I'm sure there are some good ones, bit we haven't crossed paths yet.  Id would love to find one, me shopping for logs and lumber consumes a lot of time.  Since I don't buy from them, they tell me how they push and pull other mills to manipulate prices.  I don't want that, I want an "honest" broker, who I haven't found yet.  Yes, we are a very high grade lumber buyer and seller, so that does skew prices a little.  

I don't want fishing favors, I want to do business with an operation who can do a quality business at my level of requirement.  I want professionals as lumber suppliers, dryers, and business associates. Hobbiest people can't hang, been there did that.  I can't tell you how many phone calls I've made back to independents who put "lower grade in the middle of a pack."  

I do have several independent mills (3) that can send me green wood, and are honest, but we have 47 different species, and they are erratic at best and only do mainstream, vanilla wood.  I do mainstream and specialty.  That's why I have no cedar right now.  However, the reason I buy KD red oak, or other vanilla wood, is because my kilns are chokepoints, and I shouldn't have to saw and dry a species that any competent operation should be able to do.  So if they can meet my grade both in quality and moisture content then I will do business with them, until they get complacent and rip me off, then I move on.    

There is one circle hardwood mill that does very well for us, they grade my wood green with a "no knots" grade, and I spend quite a bit of money with them.  They are good, but they can't do my variety (don't saw bassood, hickory, any maple) for example, and doesn't do any 8/4.  They do 4\4 at 40Mbf to 60 Mbf a day.  They broker their good logs, won't even saw it.  I do occasionally buy green vanilla wood from them, but it just backs up my kilns, which are filled with my specialty wood.

So I purchase sassafras, basswood, walnut, Osage, hickory (nobody saws hickory here) even the mega mills, pecan, sycamore, QS white oak and red oak logs among a bunch more.  I have to mill and dry all of these myself and that's what cycles and occupies my two kilns.  So those are our choke point.  I'm not getting another kiln.  

So it's doesn't do me any real good to buy green red oak, poplar, etc because I don't have the kiln space anyway.  Since 6/4 and 8/4 take so much longer to dry, I don't want that green anyway, I want it KD 8/4 ready top sell.

The local contract kiln dryers, big and small, around here are a joke, they rip off everyone around, don't take responsibility for badly dried wood and if I had another kiln, I could make good money drying for others.  The professional, big operations don't contract kiln dry.  The little kiln operations, including a few Idry's are very poor, but good for my business because they rip off customers, who get mad and come my way.  So the more they dry for others, the more customers I get and I won't buy from an independent unless they can prove their wood has been dried to a proper MC and sterilized.  None so far have met the challenge.  I need a paperwork record.  I get this from pro kilns, never from the independents.  They don't because they can't.  

So I only work with above board pro kilns so I don't have to wonder if they did their job right.  

Anyway me chiming on on this isn't to tell people about my operation, I'm doing what I do, and buy and sell what I sell.  My point was simply to provide the other side viewpoint.  I am an operation that buys relatively decent quantities of KD vanilla wood from professional operations who serve large, multi state areas.  So I am just providing information on what I am paying for vanilla wood, to provide a little information to the people who may find it useful or interesting.  I competitive price shop amongst professional suppliers, and these are the prices I am paying this week.  I'm simply providing food for thought, a different viewpoint as a high grade KD lumber buyer and retailer.  Many of the price sheets I get are spreadsheets, they are not necessarily to me, just general prices to a range of wholesale customers.

I thought it would be interesting for people to know what I'm paying for some species, not to start an argument or hijack the thread.  

[stavebuyer]

Fishing trips and golf scrambles are organized with the intent that people in the field can build connections and develop relationships with others in the profession. 

I often donated firewood to people in need, sawed for free, and overpaid for junk logs I didn't want to help people who were less fortunate. People with an attitude got the opportunity to do business somewhere else.

[YellowHammer]

Yep, that's my point. 

[moodnacreek]

Y.H., How did you wind up with some of my walnut? 

[nativewolf]

The input is different and appreciated YH.  Thanks

[stavebuyer]

Advice was given that networking might benefit procurement.
My mistake as the network works both ways.


















 

[YellowHammer]

As it was said earlier, log prices are falling, or at least not going up, but actual retail lumber prices, or even wholesale KD premium lumber prices I see are not dropping, or only dropping in terms of grade.  There is a huge disconnect between what a logger gets paid, or even the landowner, what the HMR reports, and the end retail user has to pay.  I'm not involved with the inner workings of the distributers who supply me, but I feel they are being professional and fair, and I pay what I think their services are worth.

As I said before, I don't know why there is such a disconnect, I'd like to get a better picture of it, and understand why so I can account.  In some ways it doesn't make much difference in the business, I call up suppliers, they tell me their sale price, and I can either agree or not.  Or I can buy green off the mill lumber, or mill it myself, then sticker it, air dry it for 6 weeks, kiln dry it, sterilize, then plane and edge and sell it.  There is a huge time delay in such a process, and I can't sell it if I don't have it.  So when I get in a bind, I put in an order.  Most of my distributers run trucks during the week, with everything from lumber to flooring, to plywood, (we also sell that on occasion) so if they have it, and I need it, I can get it in a day or so.  

I think it's also important to know the true high retail price points of some of these vanilla species.  For example, it you look on the Lowes website, a red oak 1x6"x8' long board currently sells for $53.  That's $13.25 per bdft.  It went up since this summer where it was $11.75 per bdft.  I post their prices in my showroom so people know what the big box store retail prices are.    

Poplar 1"x6"x8' is $34.  These are the stores I'm competing against, and these are the types of places the average retail buyer purchases from.

There is a huge disconnect, time delay and price insulation between log prices in the woods, and the lumber that that average retailer has to pay for.  So much so that as log prices drop, loggers quit, supply goes down, and the actual retail price sometimes goes up.

It also translates to businesses who use lumber, but don't want to deal with wholesale purchases of it.  For example, I'm not sure what maple logs are doing, but I have a professional cabinet maker driving up tomorrow from Meridian Ms, 8 hour round trip, to buy that jag of soft and hard maple I showed in the picture.  I asked him why he had to drive that far, and surely he could find it closer, because he shouldn't have to drive that far for maple.  He said he had called everybody, all the home supply stores, wholesale building supply places in his area and as he said "I just can't get maple here, I used to, but not now."  He has an order for cabinets, and needs the lumber and didn't hesitate to say he was driving 4 hours here to get it.  That's why I had the picture to post on the Forum, I had just sent it to him.

Anyway, I'm just providing a different viewpoint.  

         

[Peter Drouin]

I try to buy good logs, working with some loggers can be a pain. After one load of logs from some, I buy no more from them.
Looking for wood is harder than just cutting it, sometimes. :D :D

[so il logger]

I try to buy good logs, working with some loggers can be a pain. After one load of logs from some, I buy no more from them.
Looking for wood is harder than just cutting it, sometimes. :D :D

Meh, paying a premium price still on the stump then having to make it marketable for what it is. All the while keeping good relations with landowners, and believe me some can be tough. Then having log buyers drop the price by 50% over night after getting said stumpage fell, skidded, and hauled. Anyone is welcome to try this path instead of buying the woods finished product ready to go

[so il logger]

30 years is pretty ambitious, don't know how anyone could sweet talk a landowner into a contract tying up their land for that long.

Yeah, never happen here either...  ;D

[customsawyer]

I buy in #2KD 4/4 pine by the semi load. Normally around 14,000 bf per semi. I buy one every couple of months. A year ago I was getting it for $700.00/M. Then it went back up to $750.00/M and now it is back down to $700.00/M. That is what I paid for a semi load last week. If the price has only changed 5 cents per bf. when buying semi loads at a time it shouldn't be changing much in the log woods. The most I paid when pine was through the roof was $1200.00/M and the lowest I have gotten it several years ago was $585.00/M. So with the change in fuel prices I would say I'm getting it about as cheap as I have ever gotten it but it sure isn't reflecting what y'all are saying you are seeing in the log woods. Like YH I'm just trying to share what I'm seeing on my end. I find all of this very interesting.

[Peter Drouin]

so il logger, I pay what the big mills pay and more sometimes.
And like W Pine, I buy 8' and 10' that the big mills don't want.
Because of that, I get loggers want to sell logs to me.
When I call a logger for wood, I tell them the price up front and keep it. I don't bs no one. And I pay the next day in full. 

I could hire men and cut a lot of wood if I wanted to. But, At my age, I don't want to work that hard anymore.
Money is good to have, but, It's not on the top of my list.
I get by just fine.
Good luck to you, sir.

[ehp]

the bought a head bushes here may turn out to be not a good thing , I know I got 5 already bought from last winter with out this years amount of timber so I most likely will be cutting timber cheaper than I planned cause log prices went down . Only bush I am kind of worried about is a bush full of beech and if it drops by $100/1000 in price that will not be good 

[OldTimbercutter]

It's bad when you cut a four  ft on the stump northern read oak slick as a gun barrel and the top log with 8 in limb knots brings the same as the butt cut .
Tie logs are bringing the same as prime here. Every three weeks a new price sheet comes out ,with Prices dropping, then trucking getting higher .
I was getting more for red oak 30 years ago when 5 gallon of hydraulic oil was 10 bucks and diesel 70 cents a gallon.
I'm about ready to park it all and set by the wood heater with a good book and a cup of coffee this winter.

[ehp]

Old-timer..   I see and hear quite a few guys saying the same thing here .  If this keeps up no one will be left but good old Barge .  And I cannot see very many other people getting into logging as the cost of equipment is threw the roof and very little profit at the end and lots will have zero profit 

[barbender]

Even if you log because you love it, you still need to have a couple of nickels to rub together at the end of the week.

[nativewolf]

I try to buy good logs, working with some loggers can be a pain. After one load of logs from some, I buy no more from them.
Looking for wood is harder than just cutting it, sometimes. :D :D

Meh, paying a premium price still on the stump then having to make it marketable for what it is. All the while keeping good relations with landowners, and believe me some can be tough. Then having log buyers drop the price by 50% over night after getting said stumpage fell, skidded, and hauled. Anyone is welcome to try this path instead of buying the woods finished product ready to go

It is funny you mentioned it, we have been in discussion on 6k acres on just that sort of agreement not too far from you.  Slow discussion,  we are not in a hurry, too much on plate already.  Also had inquiries/ requests from NC LA CA HAwaii MD WV.

[nativewolf]

the bought a head bushes here may turn out to be not a good thing , I know I got 5 already bought from last winter with out this years amount of timber so I most likely will be cutting timber cheaper than I planned cause log prices went down . Only bush I am kind of worried about is a bush full of beech and if it drops by $100/1000 in price that will not be good

Our fingers are crossed for you here in VA.  
Hope beech picks up!

[so il logger]

I try to buy good logs, working with some loggers can be a pain. After one load of logs from some, I buy no more from them.
Looking for wood is harder than just cutting it, sometimes. :D :D

Meh, paying a premium price still on the stump then having to make it marketable for what it is. All the while keeping good relations with landowners, and believe me some can be tough. Then having log buyers drop the price by 50% over night after getting said stumpage fell, skidded, and hauled. Anyone is welcome to try this path instead of buying the woods finished product ready to go

It is funny you mentioned it, we have been in discussion on 6k acres on just that sort of agreement not too far from you.  Slow discussion,  we are not in a hurry, too much on plate already.  Also had inquiries/ requests from NC LA CA HAwaii MD WV.

Would love to know where this 6k acres is "near" me. If you want to play here it costs big money. To cut valuable timber that is.. I been in this my whole life, and it's a multi generation occupation. Nobody will sign a 30 yr contract on shares around "here". It's money up front and 3 yrs is about the max contract you will get

[stavebuyer]

Westvaco signed up to manage a large chunk of West KY/West TN/So IL and helped landowners clearcut their hardwoods and plant pine. That didn't work out so well.

[Walnut Beast]

I try to buy good logs, working with some loggers can be a pain. After one load of logs from some, I buy no more from them.
Looking for wood is harder than just cutting it, sometimes. :D :D

Meh, paying a premium price still on the stump then having to make it marketable for what it is. All the while keeping good relations with landowners, and believe me some can be tough. Then having log buyers drop the price by 50% over night after getting said stumpage fell, skidded, and hauled. Anyone is welcome to try this path instead of buying the woods finished product ready to go

It is funny you mentioned it, we have been in discussion on 6k acres on just that sort of agreement not too far from you.  Slow discussion,  we are not in a hurry, too much on plate already.  Also had inquiries/ requests from NC LA CA HAwaii MD WV.

Would love to know where this 6k acres is "near" me. If you want to play here it costs big money. To cut valuable timber that is.. I been in this my whole life, and it's a multi generation occupation. Nobody will sign a 30 yr contract on shares around "here". It's money up front and 3 yrs is about the max contract you will get

He will let you know when he has the contract signed