Log Prices?

[nativewolf]

Westvaco signed up to manage a large chunk of West KY/West TN/So IL and helped landowners clearcut their hardwoods and plant pine. That didn't work out so well.

The contracts were common all over the SE,  then mills discovered genetics, improved pine, did better management and they could not process all the pine they grew.  The contracts were not the problem but the focus on pine.  Tens of thousands of private landowners with no contracts did the same exact thing.  They all made mistakes.  Heck we have pine plantations west of Winchester VA that will never produce merchantable sawlogs.  When the local mill closed they were SOL and now beetles slowly but surely wipe them out and oaks and hickory replace them.

[so il logger]

Contract or no contract I call bull on 6k acres in Illinois. I guess a gov contract on Shawnee forest land is a possibility, with the right contacts to the left at current standings. But locals will inevitably burn the equipment though. If it's outside of Illinois it is not "near" enough to me to care. @nativewolf better cruise it before trying it

[ehp]

So logger , I got kind of the same thing here but not as big, got a bush of 600 acres to cut if I want and mill called BS until they seen a picture of the area and oh my god your telling the truth lol  lots of white oak and red oak are the normal tree types , bit of hard maple but that stuff will not be great cause of the clay its growing on, there should be alot of walnut but never seen a single tree but figured it got cut 40 years ago when bush got logged last time

[Peter Drouin]

so il logger, who will burn the equipment? Tree huggers?

[nativewolf]

I didn't say IL and the point wasn't if you did or did not care... but that landowners all over are willing to engage in that sort of contract.  Stavebuyers  brought up the point that the mills had in fact signed up tens of of thousands of acres in your neck of the woods in long term contracts.  Those style contracts were the basis for ours- I have reviewed dozens of mill contracts to find out what did and didn't work.   I like long term management as it takes decades to grow a good hardwood forest.   Pioneer forest in the ozarks is  exemplary management and is now struggling with success as regeneration has changed as the forest avg diam  has become larger.  Freaking ozarks.  The point here is that just because it is a long term contract doesn't mean problems end.  It just lets us address some of them so we can focus on growing forest.  You have to be agile in your management.  

Farmers all over your county have signed up for long term CREP style agreements.   I am a big fan of long term  management designed to grow great forests.  That's what I'm about.  When people say they have not had luck with it I suggest trying it a different way, don't give up.  

To argue that it can't be done when it has been in the past and is being done in farming today is to argue against facts.  For us the harvest are a means to grow a better forest.  We spent all the money on CTL so we could grow a forest; do a harvest and TSI simultaneously and not go broke.  

[Southside]

FWIW CREP ground is generally considered waste land and not making any money for the farmer, so the incentive is to get something.  

[Skeans1]

I didn't say IL and the point wasn't if you did or did not care... but that landowners all over are willing to engage in that sort of contract.  Stavebuyers  brought up the point that the mills had in fact signed up tens of of thousands of acres in your neck of the woods in long term contracts.  Those style contracts were the basis for ours- I have reviewed dozens of mill contracts to find out what did and didn't work.   I like long term management as it takes decades to grow a good hardwood forest.   Pioneer forest in the ozarks is  exemplary management and is now struggling with success as regeneration has changed as the forest avg diam  has become larger.  Freaking ozarks.  The point here is that just because it is a long term contract doesn't mean problems end.  It just lets us address some of them so we can focus on growing forest.  You have to be agile in your management.  

Farmers all over your county have signed up for long term CREP style agreements.   I am a big fan of long term  management designed to grow great forests.  That's what I'm about.  When people say they have not had luck with it I suggest trying it a different way, don't give up.  

To argue that it can't be done when it has been in the past and is being done in farming today is to argue against facts.  For us the harvest are a means to grow a better forest.  We spent all the money on CTL so we could grow a forest; do a harvest and TSI simultaneously and not go broke.  

Isn't what you guys call TSI a thin and part of a normal thin? Normally thinning there's plenty of stuff you cut that you don't get paid for it's part of the job as well as the land owners shouldn't be getting charged for. 

[nativewolf]

I don't think most farmers view forest much differently... at least it does not  seem like it, the analogy is one we use with farmers.  In most areas the forests are the truly marginal lands, that's why they have been allows to revert to forests.  

[Southside]

Not sure about that. Timber shows up on your balance sheet and tax bill as a valuable asset. CREP ground is taxed at almost nothing as it's too wet to crop or graze so the program is "found money".

[so il logger]

so il logger, who will burn the equipment? Tree huggers?

Absolutely, no way I would get involved in a harvest down there. Nutjobs

[so il logger]

Not sure about that. Timber shows up on your balance sheet and tax bill as a valuable asset. CREP ground is taxed at almost nothing as it's too wet to crop or graze so the program is "found money".

This exactly

[ehp]

here we also got to watch your equipment as things can happen to it and most times its not loggers that do the harm , its other people .   I hope things stay like there are and do not drop the price any more cause that will be bad for a lot of people besides me , lots of guys have payments to pay each month and its not good if they cannot make ends meat to stay alive , If enough guys are not working and the mills cannot get enough logs then the mill closes for good and that does no one any good in the long run , everyone seems to be out just thinking for themselves but sometimes its alot better to think as a group and keep everyone a live so then everyone makes enough money to keep going , I agree its a risk letting others know what your plan is but its also I feel that people like the mill knows what your planning and the amount of logs they can count on getting  cause when the crap hits the fan like it is doing now the mill will count on you alot more than a guy they cannot get along with , he will be at home watching Maury while your working

[nativewolf]

here we also got to watch your equipment as things can happen to it and most times its not loggers that do the harm , its other people .   I hope things stay like there are and do not drop the price any more cause that will be bad for a lot of people besides me , lots of guys have payments to pay each month and its not good if they cannot make ends meat to stay alive , If enough guys are not working and the mills cannot get enough logs then the mill closes for good and that does no one any good in the long run , everyone seems to be out just thinking for themselves but sometimes its alot better to think as a group and keep everyone a live so then everyone makes enough money to keep going , I agree its a risk letting others know what your plan is but its also I feel that people like the mill knows what your planning and the amount of logs they can count on getting  cause when the crap hits the fan like it is doing now the mill will count on you alot more than a guy they cannot get along with , he will be at home watching Maury while your working

Agree with you, hope prices stay up.  Some good news on fuel that barge shared .  We have seen it, gas below 3 again.  Diesel still high but on road 4.99 so it broke 5.  
Our overall pricing is frankly not terrible.  

[nativewolf]

Not sure about that. Timber shows up on your balance sheet and tax bill as a valuable asset. CREP ground is taxed at almost nothing as it's too wet to crop or graze so the program is "found money".

Fair points but here the crep lands are just ag, all taxed on crazy DC area pricing with it being a requirement to keep on land use or pay full boat on land valued at 8-10 an acre.  Forest are always taxed at a lower rate than any grazing land.  

[so il logger]

The crp land here is mostly made up of river bottom flood ground. The same land that the gov paid to be cleared for ag use in the 60's and 70's and my dad worked ahead of the clearing operations harvesting timber for free basically, they are paying again but now to have trees planted on. To me this is wonderful, a vast majority of the river bottoms that couldn't get a crop to market due to flooding is all going to be timber again. I own land that is in this program and planted the trees 20 years ago. I'm into my 2nd contract because the first expired and why would I turn down another 15 years of getting paid for the trees to grow. There is however, no stipulations that they can come in and harvest the timber when it's ready. The contract is only for allowing it to become a woodlot to prevent erosion, I maintain the fire breaks and when the time comes and it is ready for harvest it is my call

[Hogdaddy]

I know a lot of some of the best land around here (which is not saying a lot) was signed up in CREP. Total waste of tax payers money as far as I'm concerned. 

[so il logger]

Is CREP the same as what we got here? I'm talking ground that floods and they furnish the saplings and pay for planting then pay a yearly sum by the acre of trees growing. What would otherwise be flooded out farm fields basically

[beenthere]

The Conservation Reserve Enhancement Program (CREP) is a part of the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP), the country's largest private-land conservation program.

Partner

 

[Walnut Beast]

Just remember when you get into one of the contracts. Your in. If you want to take it out it's going to cost you. The deeper you are in ( the more money that's been paid through payments and incentives that's all calculated with penalties and interest if you want to take all of it out or some of it.

[customsawyer]

In my mind most of these programs are another form of welfare. Most of it falls under getting paid for doing nothing. 

[Walnut Beast]

This is one that could fall under that. I've talked to some guys that have done this and I thought about it but never checked deeper into it. It involves maintaining your woods and many different variables. It's like a point system or basically the more aspects of the program you do and maintain you get paid

The Environmental Quality Incentives Program (EQIP) is NRCS' flagship conservation program that helps farmers, ranchers and forest landowners integrate conservation into working lands.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/programs-initiatives/eqip-environmental-quality-incentives

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/sites/default/files/2022-10/Conservation%20Incentive%20Contracts.pdf

[so il logger]

Just remember when you get into one of the contracts. Your in. If you want to take it out it's going to cost you. The deeper you are in ( the more money that's been paid through payments and incentives that's all calculated with penalties and interest if you want to take all of it out or some of it.

In my case, why would I want out of such a short term contract to allow trees to grow on useless ground? 

[Walnut Beast]

In my mind most of these programs are another form of welfare. Most of it falls under getting paid for doing nothing.

I guess all farmers are on welfare. I welcome you to come take care of my CRP!! And pay the taxes on the payments!!! No welfare there!!!  I could have made more money cash renting out for farming but chose to rest the land and give back to nature and wildlife. 

[so il logger]

In my mind most of these programs are another form of welfare. Most of it falls under getting paid for doing nothing.

Hmm... Welfare.
Ok

[so il logger]

Yeah, pay the taxes and maintain the ground. Lose out on cash renting the acreage for ag purposes, although it almost always floods that would not be my problem after being paid a by the acre yearly amount. Or let trees grow and collect "welfare" I chose the trees..

Come on