Log Prices?

[Walnut Beast]

Ask most guys that have put land in CRP! It ends up being more work than they thought from maintaining. With the use of labor, equipment and chemicals!!! And they do checks to see if you are following your contract! It's not a money hand out by far!!! And did I say you pay taxes on the payments received from the contract. 

[BargeMonkey]

There's 3 examples I've dealt with in NY, Creps isn't typically looked down on or "welfare" farming here but we arent big "ag" like out west, it is paid so that farmers wouldn't drain / clear off swamp or wet areas. There's 480A here, forestry tax abatement plan that puts your 50+ acres into the state forestry bank, you have a managing forester and follow his plan, very strict looked after plan. I cut a fair amount of these jobs. Landowners typically save 50-80% on the taxes being in the program, if you want out of it a kidney wouldn't do it. The true deal with the devil where I'm at is selling your developmental rights to NYC / DEP, they fork over a fairly large amount of money, typically the land is already in 480A, and basically yeah you own the land but they tell you where you can ever build or do anything on it. Basically sold your soul, never getting out of it, was a popular thing here for a few yrs, again NYC owns 30% of the town where I live, the state owns probably another 20%+, you get further down by OldGreenhorn and its even higher. 

 

[so il logger]

Ask most guys that have put land in CRP! It ends up being more work than they thought from maintaining. With the use of labor, equipment and chemicals!!! And they do checks to see if you are following your contract! It's not a money hand out by far!!! And did I say you pay taxes on the payments received from the contract.

Maybe I worded it where you didn't understand or maybe you aren't telling me directly. But I agree

[Walnut Beast]

These programs are put in place for different reasons some better than others but telling me Or anyone else in a government contract program that it's collecting welfare is not accurate! 

[Walnut Beast]

Just remember when you get into one of the contracts. Your in. If you want to take it out it's going to cost you. The deeper you are in ( the more money that's been paid through payments and incentives that's all calculated with penalties and interest if you want to take all of it out or some of it.

In my case, why would I want out of such a short term contract to allow trees to grow on useless ground?

I just was using a example if you were wanting out of the contract or a portion of the land. A example is I took six acres out for two three acre lots of CRP and at the time I was into the contract for three years and it was close to five thousand dollars for the six acres of paid payments, incentives, interest and penalties I paid back. No free ride or welfare!!

[customsawyer]

I said most not all. I planted enough trees, for landowners in the program, some were decent programs, some not so much. 

[nativewolf]

Point here being that yes, farmers all over the country sign long term contracts on land management and they are contracts with teeth.   Our forestry contracts are not so different.

The Conservation Easements- where one sells the development rights to another entity (govt or private) are a big deal in Virginia and in some counties 30% of the county is in the type of easement.  I think every county in the state has at least a landowner or two.  

Barge- for what it is worth conservation easement land owners make good clients for our long term management type of contract.  

Forest land use is another type of agreement, we have several properties where we are writing the management plans and updating them for tax purposes.  Here the exact discount varies by county.  Some counties it is a 90% discount on tax.

[Peter Drouin]

We have the same thing in my town, gov buy the rights to the land. we have a family that has 1000 ac in town. They just sold 50 ac for $100.000. The farmer is still cutting hay and selling it.
Just can't build on it. [Open spaces] and the land will be in the family forever. The farmer never wanted to do anything but cut hay on it. 
In NH we have a thing called current use, where you get $$ off your taxes. A lot of people go for that too.
I myself have nothing to do with any of it. I could, but, no.

[bigblockyeti]

We have a couple different routes down here in SC, at least in Spartanburg county.  I've got a 6 acre, mostly wooded lot I'll eventually build on or sell it after pulling out a few select trees, the neighbor across the street also has just over 4 acres that's mostly field with woods toward the creek.  She's paying almost $950/yr vacant and adjacent to her lot where her house is, I'm paying under $8/yr with an ag exemption because I'm growing trees on over 85% (or 90%, can't remember) of the undeveloped land.  There's another lot down the street that's ~7 acres, he's also paying ~$8/yr and it's classified as "undeveloped" so there's routes to saving a bunch on property taxes.

[livemusic]

I have seen pics of 'improvement' lands where trees were planted along streams and they were planted in straight rows, like a plantation, and, to me, that is NOT ideal because it looks anything but natural. I would think they could get the density for whatever they are after, be it for less bank erosion, wildlife habitat, etc. without planting them in perfect rows. The aesthetics are not good. I would want it to look more natural. I dunno, I just don't like the plantation look at all. Even in pine plantations. It's bad enough it's a monoculture of one species, but planting in rows just ruins the forest for me.

[Ed_K]

 Ma is like N.H. We have what's called Chap 61, 61 is forestry land, 61a is farm land and 61b is recreation land. I have 10 ac, in 61 I'm required to have a 10 yr forestry management plan. With this I get reduced taxes this yr I paid $36. The NRCS is in charge making sure that I do what's required by the management plan, but that's over the 10 yrs. Right now I'm signing up for an additional plan ( NRCS-CPA-1202 ) CPA is short for conservation program agreement. This program is for help with non-native invasive plant eradication. 1 yr program where the FSA watch's over it. And we can sign up next yr too. It pays me back for work done. On the chapt 61f if I want to get out of it, if it's less than 5 yrs I pay the whole taxes, if over 5 yrs we pay tax on each yr over 5yrs. While we're on it we can't build a house but can build farm out-buildings. Also they have different payment for the tax schedule, using the Connecticut river east is higher that west.
 Oh, spf mbf is $478.50 this morning  ;) .

[Walnut Beast]

I understand what you mean on these plantations. But for some people it's beautiful. Several guys on here have them. A few years back I went about 30 miles from me to a meeting/ lunch good time to a retired Forester place that was trying to get the state Black Walnut Council more active.  Him and his friend had some small Black Walnut plantations and the one had a Christmas tree farm. Pretty interesting how they cut and form Christmas trees with a long razor sharp knife. It's amazing people that have their little slice of heaven or make it into their little castle!! We had a little tour of his place with his plantation. He did a lot of work keeping it very nice. He talked and had records on Black Walnut trees he harvested of the number, size and total price of what he sold three different times over the years from his farm.  Not from the plantation yet.  Had a really neat old cabin and very elaborate outhouse that was like a little house and a semi trailer that was used for a bridge across a creek to his Cabin that has seemed to work for years.

[Woodfarmer]

This topic should have its own thread!

[OH logger]

Around here ag is king and we have ditches to drain the ground. Some are DEEP. What kills
Me is some of the ditches have "buffer strips" along em to keep pesticides and other runoff out I suppose. Which is all well and good. The problem is some of those same ditches have been dipped and cleaned out (and dirt barely spread out away from the banks)so many times that there's a heck of a rise of the elevation to get in the ditch. So unless the pesticide laden water goes up and over the berm it ain't never gonna get in the ditch but yet WE are payin the farmer to not farm the berm that's full of rock from the last 10 times they dipped the ditch. 

Wasteland or lowLand never brought any money here so why should it be bought for next to nothin then the government pay to not plant crops on it? Good dirt goes for $15,000 an acre here. Sounds like river bottom in the flood plain would be a better investment. Let the govt cut you a check and sit on it. To mE that kinda goes against what should be the proud American attitude. If you really want wildlife why not plan and pay for that yourself? MYbe I'm all wrong but the handouts is part of the reason why this country's in the shape we are in right now. No government assistance for loggers and here we are survivin

[Southside]

Dairy is absolutely huge in New Zealand, and it was government subsided forever. I think it was in the '90s that the government said "hey we're broke so you're on your own" to the dairy industry. Guys were in complete panic, they knew it was the end. 

Guess what, today they kick our butt when it comes to profitability, output, etc. and all those same guys agree, they will never go back to farming for the government again.

I would say it's for the best that the government stays out of the logging business. 

[Peter Drouin]

Hand outs are the new normal. :D :D :D :D :D :

[Old Greenhorn]

Well this is a tiny thing, but it kind of fits in this thread. I got an unusual call today from a guy in Ontario looking for Ash logs. Now I don't sell logs and rarely buy them and at that, just a few here and there, never a load.
 But this guy called and left a message, so I returned his call after checking with my friend Bill who does sell logs on occasion.
 The fella had an odd accent that was hard to pick up over a bad cell connection. It did not sound French or Canadian, but I could be wrong. Frankly I thought it was Asian. We chatted briefly. He would buy anything over 10" diameter and said they would send a truck or container. My spidey sense went up on full. His only criteria was 2 clear faces and that the trees could not be EAB killed. I told him he was 15 years too late. :D But he could try cutters over in Delaware or perhaps Schoharie counties where they still had a few trees that were clean and green. What I should have done was asked him the price he was offering. Dumb move on my part. Bill is ticked at me for that. ;D
 I thought it was weird that a guy from that far north was making cold calls for logs down this way. I am pretty certain it was for export (send a container?), and as I have read here several times, the Chinese buyers are pretty notorious, and getting paid is not always a sure thing. The whole thing just struck me as weird and smelled a little funny.

[Ianab]

Dairy is absolutely huge in New Zealand, and it was government subsided forever. I think it was in the '90s that the government said "hey we're broke so you're on your own" to the dairy industry.

I think it was before the 90s that the Govt dropped the "Supplemental Minimum Price" scheme for agriculture in general. The original idea was that a levy would be paid in the "good" years, and that would prop up farmers incomes in the bad years. Turned out that most years were "bad" and it just ended up as a Govt subsidy. :

As you say, it was better for the Govt to be more hands off and just set the broader regulations, while letting the farmer owned companies adjust operations to suit the market (not adjust their operations to the suit Govt subsidies). 

Other difference is the main dairy Company is a farmer owned co-operative. That removes that "who's making the profit here?" squabble. The more profit the company makes, the more the farmers get paid. The company can't increase profits by forcing down raw milk prices, like a sawmill can make more money by paying less for logs. It's more like if the forest owners formed a company to operate their own mill.

[so il logger]

In the case of my small acreage crp tree program it is all 100% flood prone land. That said, even after contract expires it can not ever be dozed to make ag field again. Same with any other low laying woodlot here. So following the handout or welfare theory how is receiving a measly sum for trees to grow different than receiving money from a farmer to cash rent it? Around here most all farmers are receiving big gov subsidies, so it would after all be welfare money? I do have expense and labor maintaining this crp whereas I wouldn't by cash renting it for corn. Guess I just never thought of it as welfare and it pisses me off that I would be considered a recipient of such. Have worked hard for everything I got in this life

[BargeMonkey]

I told him he was 15 years too late. :D But he could try cutters over in Delaware or perhaps Schoharie counties where they still had a few trees that were clean and green. The whole thing just struck me as weird and smelled a little funny.

DEP probably owns the largest concentration of ash left in the state down around the reservoir, Ashoken, Pepacton, drive around the Gilboa dam and every 100ft the guard rail is smashed from the ash falling over. Unless it's a big bag of money there's to much risk even getting involved with them. Foresters can't get jobs cut fast enough to save it, he couldn't even get a bid on this one a couple weeks ago, I'm 4-5yrs out now at the pace I'm going. 


 


 
  🤦‍♂️. 

[Walnut Beast]

In the case of my small acreage crp tree program it is all 100% flood prone land. That said, even after contract expires it can not ever be dozed to make ag field again. Same with any other low laying woodlot here. So following the handout or welfare theory how is receiving a measly sum for trees to grow different than receiving money from a farmer to cash rent it? Around here most all farmers are receiving big gov subsidies, so it would after all be welfare money? I do have expense and labor maintaining this crp whereas I wouldn't by cash renting it for corn. Guess I just never thought of it as welfare and it pisses me off that I would be considered a recipient of such. Have worked hard for everything I got in this life

Don't sweat it! Nobody is 💰 your taxes!  Do what's best for you! Anybody can say what they want but you can bet they are looking out for themselves and their land 

[OH logger]

I'm not knocking anyone receiving government subsidies. The farmer or landowner that refuses em puts himself at a disadvantage to the other landowners and farmers (competition) that are receiving them. I'm blaming the government for starting all
This . All industries should be able to survive on their own without the government "help". My family farms and dad said years ago that he wishes he could just sell
His crops for a fair price and keep the government out of their business.

[nativewolf]

I am surprised some loggers don't join up to do a coop sawmill.  It's worked well in many industries.  Tillamook dairy is a good example.  Big dairy farmers in Oregon but they make darn good cheese and icecream.  I buy that in my local foodlion whenever the pocketbook allows.  

Back to log pricing.  Domestic YP veneer is much slower than last year.  I only have a couple of orders- too bad because I have some nice logs.  Since we don't do the trucking the overall profitability on the YP veneer loads is double that of a regular YP sawlog load.

Our YP sawlogs loads run about 4X00 feet (can be up to 5k) and are paying out at just about $0.70 a foot through 2 sided.  The 1 side or no side logs go to a low grade market.  The buyer is sending butts out as export I think.  YP veneer is just $1/bdft but cutting the $ on trucking drives profit up considerably.  It really looks like China opens up this spring and if the govt bails out these large apartment companies we will see the export market pop next winter.  That would drive the veneer pricing in something like YP up 20% and push the grade down into logs that are less white.  

I still find it interesting that there is such a thing as a YP veneer market.  I'll post pics of a few in the what are you cutting thread.

[logbyr]

Most of the poplar v logs I'm seeing exported this year are going to Europe.    China wants some but the Europeans have been pretty steady last few years and are more "comfortable" to deal with for most westerners.  
I am not saying china is inconsequential but they have a lot more headwinds than the western world at the moment.  The wood manufacturers r having a tough time adjusting to a world where the govt is not juicing everything.  The # of players over there continues to shrink.   Capitalism adjusts faster than socialism.   

[moodnacreek]

Well this is a tiny thing, but it kind of fits in this thread. I got an unusual call today from a guy in Ontario looking for Ash logs. Now I don't sell logs and rarely buy them and at that, just a few here and there, never a load.
But this guy called and left a message, so I returned his call after checking with my friend Bill who does sell logs on occasion.
The fella had an odd accent that was hard to pick up over a bad cell connection. It did not sound French or Canadian, but I could be wrong. Frankly I thought it was Asian. We chatted briefly. He would buy anything over 10" diameter and said they would send a truck or container. My spidey sense went up on full. His only criteria was 2 clear faces and that the trees could not be EAB killed. I told him he was 15 years too late. :D But he could try cutters over in Delaware or perhaps Schoharie counties where they still had a few trees that were clean and green. What I should have done was asked him the price he was offering. Dumb move on my part. Bill is ticked at me for that. ;D
I thought it was weird that a guy from that far north was making cold calls for logs down this way. I am pretty certain it was for export (send a container?), and as I have read here several times, the Chinese buyers are pretty notorious, and getting paid is not always a sure thing. The whole thing just struck me as weird and smelled a little funny.

Canadians looking for wood down here has been going on for a long time. A logger friend had to take the signs off his pick up and keep his machinery hidden as best he could as they would be knocking on doors trying to offer a land owner more and take the wood lot. When the market heats up there is a lot of competition some of it welcome.