Gripes my @$$

[Don P]

Just to make sure were on the same page. NHLA is for factory use as in cabinets and furniture. It is a grade for how many clear cuttings can be gotten from a board. A grader there is an individual I believe.

 The graders for construction uses are stress graders, verifying the strength of the board. NELMA handles most strength grading in hardwoods. I was quoted I think $275/ day plus expenses


We as a nation are moving toward adoption of one model building code. Thus far we've basically had three, most of the country is slowly adopting the International code. This is the one I've been referring to because we've just adopted it in VA.

R-502.1  General. Load-bearing dimension lumber for joists, beams, and girders shall be identified by a grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section shall be accepted.


 Deadheader, check the SPF and SYP values on the beam calculator. These tables specify the allowable design strengths, by grade, for species. Span tables account for SYP's increased strength by allowing similar sized yellow pine to span further than SPF. The reason I'm bringing this up is another point on my mind. We should be able to provide a local inspector with good numbers with regards to the sawmill lumber we wish to use. The numbers In the calculator are now from a National Design Standard publication that the International Code references. If you find strength for your particular species and grade and design accordingly, any of these species should be allowed.
  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Good point, Don. I keep forgettin that them calculators are there. : : :

[Don P]

I meant that we should be able to use other woods besides just the few that are on the "big 7's" tables. I've got lots of different trees than that that I want to use. What the inspector should only need is E and Fb numbers and any species is used within its limits. These trees have no reason not to be used in construction they just don't fit into the "pipeline" well.

I guess I keep coming back to where the rubber hits the road. If an inspector wishes to check my grading fine. I can calculate the load based on his tables and can mock it up and throw on sacks of concrete to proof load the board. If the deflection amount passes, it is good for the members they specified as needing a stamp.
On "where do we learn to grade?" I think you can go through the seminars at SPIB or one of the other agencies  ???.  But that will not a grader make.

[woodmills1]

All said, If I sold a load of 2x i would be willing to accept the liabilty on a strength issue because I would sell reasonable material for that use.  I do know that if the building failed for bad construction or design I would also be sued.  That is just the nature of the game.

Now on the building with local lumber issue.  As I have said before I think only NY and NH have something in place.  I bet that there are no real laws against it but at least in areas like mine, where the local legislative bodies really pay attention, it is hard to get the building permit using local lumber.  DanG even here in NH I have to remind them and show them the legislation and my certificate every time.  The stamp just makes it easier from ther point of view since they have so much else to concentrate on.

Now, I bring up good and bad.  A good sawyer with knowledge will cut lumber that is suitable for its use, stamp or not.  A bad person, I won't say sawyer, with a stamp will put that stamp on lumber and not care what it is used for.

Aand last, a straight grained 2x with major wane is a pain to work with but is very close to the strength of one with no wane.  A cross grained clear 2x will break at a much lower value though it looks quite nice. :P

[Frank_Pender]

If go the Western Wood Products Association   on line you will discover the opportunity to purchase a variety of publications on grading of lumber.  If I am not mistaken you will find books on both soft woods and hardwoods available for purchase.  

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Most of the rules are not that complicated and just describe the wane and knot rules.  There are grade rules for looks as well as load specs.  My stamp will just address the looks and soundness of the board as do most construction lumber does.  There are load bearing specs for each type of wood and if a contractor uses the wrong wood it theirs or the someone esles fault not the boards.
    I went to a large mill in south Arkansas and they cut 100 to 150 mbdft per 8 hour shift and have 5 graders.  That means that each grader looks at no less then eight 2x4x8's per minute or one about every 14 seconds.  That is on a slow shift and if you kick it up some then they have just 10 seconds to look and grade a board.  No blinking or scratching nothing.  I now know how them boards and many more got through.   Now in a given year I saw over 200,000 bdft of lumber and about 1/2 of that is SYP.  I come from a long line of carpenters and my son is a carpenter.  Been around lumber all of my life and know a good board when I see it.  One of the reasons I bought a mill is to make my own boards because of the crap that I was asked to build houses out of.  I would wager a months earnings that I could learn to grade boards by the rules and do so with the best of them.  It is just a racket and a way to keep a white boy down.
ARKANSAWYER         SSMU

[woodmills1]

Remember I almost failed the Nh #2 grades course because I wanted to reject most of what was a marjinal passing board.  I will repeat what I learned there was about cross grain.  The white pine we have up here will fail very easily when the grain runs to around 30- 40 degrees off the length of the board.

How about if I institute the woodmills whack test.  That is Ifin i give it a good whack right off the mill and it don't break then it gets a stamp. :D

[Bro. Noble]

James,

That's how my son, Tom,  grades pallet boards :D :D ------leans any questionable boards against a stack and stomps on it.

I went with him once to deliver a load of cutstock.  I told him I wanted to go watch them assembling pallets.  There were several automatic pallet machines banging away.  The guys feeding the machines would periodically pull out a board and stomp on it :D   Made me feel good to know we are using the same high-tech quality control as the big guys :D

[Paul_H]

Noble,

We have Canadian version up here.

Stompin Tom

[VA-Sawyer]

Woodmills1, wacking won't work. You will have to use a different term. If you say that you " went through a wack of wood today " we won't know if your talking about quanity or quality.  ;D  
Besides no building inspector will be impressed if you are wacking it. Instead use the phrase " stress testing it".  ;)

Just my two cents worth.
VA-Sawyer

[Percy]

Noble,

We have Canadian version up here.

Stompin Tom

Good ol Stompin Tom, I dont think the Yanks know who he is, its a shame. They are missin out on my fave...Muk Tuk Annie"..... ;D ;D

[Paul_H]

Bud the Spud, Sudbury Saturday Night,and  The Man in the Moon is a Newfy.

                                 8)

Hey Percy, Have you ever been to Tilsonburg?

[Percy]

Bud the Spud, Sudbury Saturday Night,and  The Man in the Moon is a Newfy.

                                 8)

Hey Percy, Have you ever been to Tilsonburg?

Lukes Guitar, Ketchup loves Potatoes,The Hockey Song. :D :D :D


No, never been to Tilsonberg. Where is it?? scuse my ignorance...

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Stopped on my way back from MO this morning delivering cedar to order my stamp.  It will be here in a week or so.  I will be a stamping stomping fool then. ;D
ARKANSAWYER

[Frank_Pender]

I got a letter via snail mail today, bases on y request from a couple days ago.  What they sent me was an application to take one of their 3 classes offered this year in the Portland, Oregon area, on softwood grading.   The woods are primarely from this area of the country (West Coast).   The class runs 4 dfays in length and is said to be higly concentrated; like take a whole year course in 4 days.  What you receive from the class is a certificate indicating that you have taken the class and passed.   They will not issue you licence that says you are certified ti grade lumber, only that you have taken their class and passed, if you pass.  The hook will cost $ 695  and inclued a lunch for each of those 4 days.  I could travel the 75+ miles each day or find a hammock of some sort to lay my head for 4 nights.  They number of students in each class is limited to about 10 or 12 students, with several different teachers throught the 4 days course, that have expertese in various areas.

[ARKANSAWYER]

I am a stamping fool now.  Got my stamp today and stamped away.  If I smear it a bit it looks like one from the box store.
ARKANSAWYER

[Kirk_Allen]

Way to go Arkansawyer 8) 8)

What are the dimensions on your stamp?
Are you using red ink, blue or black?

For curious minds, I too am a member of SSMU 8) 8)

[woodrat]

Hi, Haven't yet plowed through all five pages of this thread, (slooooow dial up connection). Frank, what classes are you talking about? Is that from WFPA? I've been told that the only way to get a grader's license around here is to go work for a mill and get trained and tested. Was told that it would take about a year on the job to get past the test. Not something I'm willing to do. I took an 80 hour crash course in NHLA from a licensed hardwood grader a few years ago, and was grading tanoak well within the rules after finishing the class. I'd be interested in the softwood class you're talking about but 700 clams seems a little steep to not come away able to put a stamp on anything. I did find a grader nearby that will grade softwood for $35.00/hour, so I will be using his services when it comes time to build my place. Never had these kinds of problems in the back canyons in CA, there were no inspectors willing to come out there..

Like the stamp, Arky, lookin' reeeel official-like.

[Frickman]

Way to go Arky! Now maybe folks can get some good lumber for their projects.

[karl]

Been half heartedly following this thread. Today I took delivery of lumber from our local yard for a camp addition. Wish I'd had a camera! Wane, wormholes galore, red rot, one 2x8x12 split 7FEET! The real gem of the load was another 2x8x12 with a spike knot (cracked already)running 5 plus inches across with a grade stamp (#2) directly on the edge of the knot!!???  :oWTF!?!  ???Some of this _____ material shouldn't have made Utilityl!!! Sure glad we got graders to protect us dumb builders!!!  :
So Arky- since you now got a stamp- wanna start shippin' North? I'd prefer it without ice on it if possible ;) since everything we've used lately has plenty.

Ok, I feel better after the rant 8)

[ARKANSAWYER]

  My stamp is about 2 inches square and I am using black ink.   I am going to get some red ink when I run out of black.  Most of my lumber will go as it always have but there is times when folks ask for graded and stamped lumber.  I am going to get a grading book from the Southern Pine guys and get all knowed up.   They said that I had to be a mill in production for 3 years before I could apply for a grading stamp.  The mill owns the stamp.  So how can a grader come to my site and grade lumber and stamp it since only a mill can own a stamp?  There seems to be some fishy rules here.
   I had a guy come out in the snow today to get a 12 ft 2x4 that he could use with out knots.  So we brushed off some snow and dug one out.  He handed me a $5 and asked if that was enough?  I asked if he wanted his change and he said keep it as it was worth it to get a board that he could use.  I see that the quality of lumber is going down hill every where.
ARKANSAWYER

[woodrat]

My favorite around here is the nice Doug fir 2x6 with the pith and two bark edges in the same board. Guess they just couldn't wait for it to grow into a real sawlog...

[ScottAR]

Funny thing happened at work today. (funny sad)  I work at a big box home improvement place.  I cut some bands on a bundle of 2x8s the night crew left and the entire top row rose to salute me.   >:( :D   One bowed nearly a foot over 12' !!

I just shook my head and went on to move some OSB out of the rain...  I feel a cull package tomorrow to go with the other 5 outside...

[Frank_Pender]

Woodrat, I believe you are correct in the name of the people who offered th class.  I am sorry, I have been looking for the letter they sent but my office help must hve misplaced it for me. :D   They are located in vancouver, Washington, if ZI recalel correctly.

[beenthere]

There is a WWPA (Western Wood Products Association) located in Portland, OR that claims to grade about 1/3 of all softwood lumber.  Is that the one you are thinking of?

http://www.lumberbasics.org/