Possible barn restoration project.

[Piston]

I have an old barn on my property in NH that is in need of a "little" TLC.

Here is a pic:



I'm not sure exactly when the barn was built, but my grandfather bought this property back in 1964 and it was 'old' then.  They're is a mixture of rough sawn 2X4's for studs, rough sawn timbers for the framing (a few are hand hewn), and some of the roof timbers are only sawn on one side.  I know very little about old barns compared to many of you, so I'm hoping you guys may be able to tell me more about it, and maybe where to start.

I believe that sawn lumber wasn't readily available until sometime in the mid 1800's when sawmills became more prevalent, so I'm assuming that this barn was built sometime between the mid 1800's to 1900.

It appears to me, that whoever built the barn, didn't have a whole lot of experience building timber framed structures.  The joinery is very basic, there are no real mortise and tennon joints, and there are no knee braces in the frame. 
However, it's not too often that you see a chimney in the barn.  I'd really like to line the chimney and put it back in use with a woodstove, if it is found to be in good structural shape.  The foundation of the chimney is a very large boulder underneath the barn, either that or ledge, it's tough for me to tell. 

For quite some time, the roof was in horrible condition.  Not completely open to the elements, but in need of repair.  About 5yrs (?) years ago, my father and I stripped the shingles off the roof......
 

 
.......put new sheathing on...



  

 
....and reshingled it. 



Since then, the roof no longer leaks, but some of the timbers had started to rot on the ends from when it was leaking in the past.
This is the southeast corner....
 

This is the south wall, if you look closely, you can see a peg holding the rafter and tiebeam joint together, the tiebeams are just half lapped into the top plate.



 




For the most part, the roof rafters/purlins are in decent shape.  These few pics show roof framing and loft, looking east....
 

  

  

 ......and here is the loft looking at the west wall.



I'm glad we at least got the barn fairly weather proof.  I want to minimize the chance of completely losing this barn altogether.  Before I started reading this forum, I thought that barn was worthless, I figured we'd tear it down and level the spot with a dozer    Thank god I didn't do that.  Now, I want to turn it into a space that I will spend a lot of time in.  It now has some 'sentimental' value to it, well, for me anyways.  :D

Aside from the south sill, the siding is probably my biggest worry.  It is really in need of repair/replacement as water is able to blow in through the sides during a rain storm.  To make matters worse, there are a lot of trees close to the barn on the east end, not allowing a good amount of sunlight to hit the barn until afternoon, same goes for the west end. 
Here is a better view of the siding on the west end.


and here is a close up.  Do these shingles look like they are hand split?  They appear to have been shaved at the bottoms with an adze.  Is this so water will run off better?  Why did they shave the bottoms like that?
 



You can see in the first picture that I posted, that the roof is obviously sagging quite a bit.  It appears to me that most of this sagging is caused by the south sill rotting out and settling into the ground.  The south wall of the barn was originally propped up on rocks to support it, however over time, it has sunk into the ground, and is now making contact with the soil, which of course has rotted it out. 

The west end sill is in a similar situation, however, the north and east sills are in good shape, and for the most part elevated off the ground.
From what I can see under the barn in the NE corner, the majority of the floor timbers are still in very good condition.

Here is another picture that shows pretty well, how the sill is sitting right in the soil, not the entire length of it, but a good portion of it. 


My plan would be to jack up the south wall of the barn, replace the sill, level out the roof line, and replace the siding.  Of course, I make it sound like a "simple plan" but I know those are major tasks. 

What do you suggest that I do first?  Where should I start?  Does it look like this barn is repairable in place, or do you think it would be best to take it down, put in a true foundation, and errect it again using as much of the original components as possible? 

I'm open to any and all advice  ;D

[Jim_Rogers]

Your plan sounds like a good one.
One thing you could do right away is remove the soil next to the barn to create a water run off area.
You want the soil next to the sill to be the high spot and everything else lower, if possible.
In order to stop the water from rotting the wood you have to deal with it.

Next thing to do is any other emergency stabilization needed to stop it from falling apart. Such as supporting that tie or supporting the ridge until you can fix the sills and foundation areas.

You will need to start at the bottom and work your way up to repair and replace the sills and post bottoms.

I can teach you how to cut a scarf in a post to repair the bottom.

Like this:



In order to repair the sills you'll need to understand what length they should be.
To do that you measure the frame fairly accurately at the place where the frame hasn't shifted because of the rot. Usually this is done at the plate level for the eave wall and at the tie beam level for the gable ends.
Don't be surprised if you get different measurements from one plate to the other or one gable end to the other.
But this is what you have to do.
Then you take those measurements and make the timbers at the bottom of the walls the same dimensions, in length.

This should give you a good footprint of the structure.

One challenge you're going to have is that you guys put the roof on with the sag in it. And these new pieces of plywood may fight you when you try and jack up the roof and straighten it. Only time will tell.

When you do start jacking it don't think you're going to do it all in a day. You may need to jack it an inch or two and wait a while and let the building shift and get accustom to the new position. Then jack it some more. It took years for it to settle into this shape, you can't rush it to put it back straight.

Jim Rogers

[Chilterns]

Hi,

This is a small but perfectly formed timber-framed building with butt purlins and a ridged roof, fully sarked with vertical boards but no wind braces.

Before going too much further I would like to recommend that you make a complete set of dimensioned drawings for each wall, floor and roof frames including measurements for each of the timbers used to make the frame. Try also to identify if any timbers that appear to be missing. This will force you to study the building in some detail.

Once you have a complete set of drawings you can mark these up with any observations regarding decay, insect attack, structural deformations and failures, etc. If you are proficient with 3D Sketchup then it will prove to be very useful to make a model of your house frame. You could then post this here and then a more informed opinion could be given by Jim and others on how to go about your restoration.

Chilterns

[Piston]

Jim,
Thank you for the info.  Those post scarfs are pretty impressive.  When I met Dave Shephard at the TF class he was showing me some similar pics, up until I saw his pictures, I didn't even know you could scarf structural members like that.  I thought it was only for a top plate that had support underneath it. 
The advice about moving the dirt away from the sill, to cause the water to run away from it, is very much appreciated. I'll do that next time I get up there and have some time. (Next time up is strictly a hunting trip  ;D)

Chilterns,
You gave some great info. 
I am very proficient with Sketchup and have spent many hours using the program (too many  :D) 
I'll take your advice and make some detailed drawings before taking things apart and doing more damage than good  ;)

Thank you guys for the great advice.  Keep it coming  ;)
-Matt

[Holmes]

Chilterns that is a great idea. What a great way to get to know and understand the project.

[Jim_Rogers]

Once you have your measurements done, as I have mentioned, then is should be quite easy to create your sketch up model. After the model is drawn then you can print out views and other drawings to take with you to the barn and label them.

When we did this, at a guild function, back in 02, the instructor used a high lighter pen to color the timbers on the paper that needed work/repair/replacement.

I was given a set of these to use for me to cut replacement parts for the barn we were restoring.

It was very helpful to have.

After you replace your sills then you will need to secure them to the existing floor framing so that they won't move again.

The fellow who did the work shown above, used a threaded rod through the sill and had the other end welded to a piece of angle iron. The angle iron had holes drilled through it so that it could be secured to sleepers under the floor system. This prevents the sills from spreading out and off dimension when the load from above is again lowered onto them. Similar to a tying joist that secures two long eave wall sills to each other.

The nut and washer on the threaded rod was recessed into the outside of the sill so that it wouldn't effect the siding.  And once the floor was re-installed you couldn't even see it.

Like this:



If you can't get your threaded rod welded to a piece of angle iron, there are some other brackets you can buy that can be used. I don't have the exact part number right now but it's easy enough to find. Once you have the part number you can also find a supplier and have them order it for you. By supplier I mean a local lumber yard that normally handles Simpson StrongTie parts.

Jim Rogers

[Warbird]

That's a cool project.  Is the foundation in good shape, overall?

[dukndog]

Great thread Piston!! I look forward to following your progress.

Rich Miller

[thecfarm]

I wonder if someone lived in that for awhile. There was a piece of land my grandparents brought that had a house on it. They had hay in it and someone wnated to rent it,so they took the hay out and rented it. House is long gone,but foundation is still there. This was a long time ago. I don't ever remember any of the house being there. Good luck with your barn.

[Piston]

That's a cool project.  Is the foundation in good shape, overall?

The foundation, or rather lack thereof, is not in good shape.  The barn was basically set on rocks, but not like a stone foundation you see in Sobons book, like just some random rocks. 
This barn, like many old barns, will eventually fail because of the poor foundations. 

I will need to address the problem of the 'lack of foundation' at some point in the near future.  I am thinking that once I get the sills replaced, and I have some good strong supporting timbers to work with, I will be able to jack up the barn and put in a proper foundation.

This brings me to many more questions that will need answers down the road.  ;D  However, one of my thoughts was that after the sills are in good shape, the building is secure, and I have some extra money laying around  :D I want to try and add a foundation. 

Let me know if I'm crazy, but one way I thought of doing this, was to place some cribbing all around the outside of the barn, then place some cribbing all around the inside of the barn (opposite of the other cribbing mentioned) which would of course entail taking up some floorboards (needs to be done anyways.)
....Then, I could slowly jack up the barn a foot or two (or more) and using heavy timbers or steel beams, support the barn on these beams where one end would be resting on the cribbing on the inside, and one end resting on the cribbing on the outside, then I would be able to dig, and pour, a proper footing and foundation wall.

Does this sound crazy?  I would hire a professional to help me set it up, and go over my plans prior to trying this. 

Great thread Piston!! I look forward to following your progress.

Rich Miller

Uh oh, this makes me feel like I have to actually make progress with this project  ;D
I'm good at planning and thinking things through, it's actually DOING the work that scares me.  :D

I wonder if someone lived in that for awhile.

I wonder the same thing.  I found it odd that there would be a chimney in a barn? 

[Holmes]

 Piston  I raised a couple of my sheds with steel beams, 6"x8"s. If you can get 2 or 3 beams 4 to 8 feet longer than the width of the barn, slide them under the new sills {front to back}then jack up each side slowly and have cribbing set up to support the beams.  There is more to it than that  like cross tying inside the barn corner to corner and up and down and setting up the cribbing so you can use the jack inside the cribbing and only go an inch or 2 at a time.
  I work with a company that does barn restorations. It is scary ,neat, cool, what they do.  So some of those small junk logs could make some great cribbing.
    You may need to go 2' to 3' high with each set up of cribbing, 50 to 60 pieces total.   Dana

[Jim_Rogers]

The problem with jacking this up to put in a foundation is the chimney. You're going to have to un-do all the flashing around it so that the roof can "slide up" as the building is jacked up.

It can be done.

The long timbers or steel I beams when passed through a building to lift it up are called "needles".

When planning on lifting a barn from below the sills would take it all up at the same time.
When lifting a barn from above the sills you could do that first so that you can then install new sills.

You'll have to lift by the tie beams or some other part, then you'll need to make sure that all the framing will come up when you jack it up.

To make cribbing stacks the guys use 6x7 timbers usually 4' long and they stack them with the 7" dimension being up and down.
Then when they want to slide in a timber to set the jack on they roll one to the side and it slides in between the stacks like this:



The gray pipe in the middle of the stack picture is suppose to represent a jack.

Here is another useful picture:



They have cross braced the frame so that it won't shift while jacking.
You can do this on the inside so that you can see where to attach it to the studs of each wall. This should help you to hold them all while it's being lifted.

Jim Rogers

[grweldon]

Jim... cool picture.

Am I mistaken or does the image show that the barn is being jacked up by lifting up on the plates?

Glen

[Jim_Rogers]

Not sure on that one. I would say no, the cribbing is all below the tie beams which look like in this two story barn is what holds up the floor joists.

Jim Rogers

[Piston]

Great info about the cribbing Jim.  I'll mill some 6X7's 4' long next time I'm milling.  Should I try to use hardwood or would straight grain EWP work fine? 

I'll start keeping an eye out on craigslist for some long steel I beams. 

Regarding the chimney, when I was reroofing the barn, I redid all the flashing around the chimney, I could see about a 2" difference from where the roof was originally, to where it had settled at that time. 

I want to be really careful around the chimney, especially when jacking up the barn, I would hate to damage that old chimney. 


There have always been a lot of bats in and out of the garage.  I remember going in there many times and looking up at the ceiling and seeing bats hanging from the ceiling.  Because of this, there is a lot of bat guano in the loft. 

Should I be concerned with cleaning this up?  What would be the best way to get rid of all the bat guano?  Can I just sweep it up or is it like pigeon crap where it's unhealthy to breath? 
There is a bat box on the east wall of the barn, and ever since we reroofed the barn the bat's have pretty much stayed out of it and stick with the bat box. 

[Chilterns]

Hi Piston,

I have an early 1600's granary that I open to the public once a year and before this I sprinkle lots of very damp sawdust down over any mice / bat droppings and then sweep this up using a soft brush. This appears to be quite an effective way in both containing and preventing the rise of dust from rodent droppings. Recent events out west have demonstrated that mice droppings can prove to be quite hazardous.

Chilterns

[Jim_Rogers]

I think you could use just about any extra wood for cribbing. Oak will be heavy to stack. I think these guys either use EWP or hemlock.

I would follow the suggested method for dealing with clean up first.....

Jim Rogers

[Piston]

I'll bring some extra sawdust up with me to help clean up the bat quano next time I go up there  ;)  I'll also bring one of those snazzy looking dust masks as well. 

Question about the I beam.  I found one that is 36' long, only one.  The problem is it might be a little TOO big.  It has an 18" web and 7.5" top and bottom width.  Do you think that is way too overkill or would it be able to work?  I will have a tractor with front end loader and a full sized backhoe up there in the spring. 

[shinnlinger]

Im going to agree that the barn was built in the mid to late 1800's and those shingles are probably white pine.  I made pine shingles for my place at Jason Weir's  house in Chichester.  He has an 1880's shingle mill that is neat to see and is a member of this forum.

As jim said, Its kinda too bad you resheathed the roof with the sag because that will also hold the roof from going back into shape easily and something could tear or break in the operation.  I think unflashing the chimney and jacking and pouring a concrete foundation or slab, splicing in heathy sills and timbers is the way to go, but perhaps you could remove the floor and dig down inside and out?  Would a mini excavator fit in there? Rotten ends can be injected with epoxy to stiffen them up. 

If you want old timbers to splice I have some but also know where to get more if you have the desire.

Dave

[shinnlinger]

Another thought on the chimney is get some quotes on relining before you go to far.  It
May be way more than you want to spend and if so take the chimney down and save the bricks.  Would be a shame to work around he chimney only to find later it is unsaveable. 

As far as being cautious about taking on the repairs yourself, you noted how whoever built that wasn't the most skilled carpenter, but it has still stood 150 years and what better project to tackle than a barn you considered bulldozing.   Safety considerations aside, What do you have to lose? 

[Piston]

....As jim said, Its kinda too bad you resheathed the roof with the sag because that will also hold the roof from going back into shape easily and something could tear or break in the operation.  I think unflashing the chimney and jacking and pouring a concrete foundation or slab, splicing in heathy sills and timbers is the way to go, but perhaps you could remove the floor and dig down inside and out?  Would a mini excavator fit in there? Rotten ends can be injected with epoxy to stiffen them up. 

If you want old timbers to splice I have some but also know where to get more if you have the desire.

Dave

Now that you guys mention the concern with the roof's new sheathing, I can see what you mean.  I guess when I jack up the middle of the barn, the plywood will hold all the rafters in the same spot, and not allow the ridge beam to raise up and settle out level.  I guess there isn't much I can do about that, shy of removing the sheathing, but then at that point, I feel like I'm not all that far away from dismantling the entire building and doing a total restoration.  Although, I don't think I'm ready to tackle that kind of project  8)

The mini excavator from the inside could work pretty good.  I have to replace some of the flooring anyways.  Is that something that should be done in sections?  For instance, should I try to dig down and pour a foundation and portion of the slab a little bit at a time?  Or is it better to jack up the entire building and do the pour all at once? 

By relining the chimney, do you mean installing one of those stainless steel liners?  As long as the flu is large enough I can do that myself.  However, I'm not qualified by any means to dertermine if the chimney is structurally sound.  Would this be a job for a chimeny sweep, or a mason? 

As far as being cautious about taking on the repairs yourself, you noted how whoever built that wasn't the most skilled carpenter, but it has still stood 150 years and what better project to tackle than a barn you considered bulldozing.   Safety considerations aside, What do you have to lose? 

Good point Dave!   ;D

I'm going back up there next week to take another look at the barn.  I'll take some measurements and take a closer look at what needs to be done, and where. 

[fuzzybear]

Here in the north with perma frost, just about every house is set down on cribbing and 10"x10" beams, just like Jim has shown. The cribbing is set on a base on white channel rock with PT pads and the cribbing is built up from there. The building will settle and are easy to relevel with some shims.
   Most every historical house has been move at least once in it's life. Each time it is set down on the same type of foundation. Each time the home is leveled off prior to moving and strapped from the inside. 
  Like Jim has said it is important that you deal with the water first. Trying to work in a muddy area replacing beams and sills is not much fun and can kill the project quickly.
  Once the area around where your working is dry then you can level, and temporarily patch concerned areas, and raise the entire building slowly.
   You may be only able to raise it up 2" at a time, because of the chimney. and you don't want to put stress on walls that are not fully tied together. Trying to raise to fast will make stuff go "POP" fast.  When raising a place, slow and steady is what you want.
  I look forward to following this thread.
FB

[shinnlinger]

Two more thoughts.   If you figured out your cut list this fall and milled them but let them weather for a while uncovered they will grey up.   Won't Match the old stuff but will look better than fresh wood 
On the rafters if you sawzalled the nailsfor the sheathing  from underneath it wOuld allow flexing.  You could renail under each shingle.  Might be more work than tearing off though if you decide on a complete dismantle. 

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Piston,

If you don't mind sharing, I had a few questions about the amount of time you have into the restoration so far.  I'm doing some writing currently on the subject of timber frame restoration, and if you don't mind, I'd kind of like to use your information as "blind control," for some statistics.  When your done with the project maybe we could talk more, I may need some crew members next year down in your area. I would have made this request directly but you personal message access for this forum appears to be off.  Look forward to hearing from you. 

[Piston]

Hi Jay,
That's odd that you couldn't PM me, I've received a couple PM's over the last week or so.  Anyways, to answer your initial question about how much time I have into this so far, it isn't a whole lot.  Mostly what I've done so far is what I think of as "emergency repairs".  Basically, just doing enough to make the building NOT fall into the ground  ;D  I was really worried about the roof as it was in horrible shape, it was leaking water which started rotting some of the rafters and top plate connections.  I wanted to stop the leak before further damage occured. 

So far I have only 4 days of work into the barn.  This was removing the old shingles, resheathing the roof (which I'm not so sure was the best idea, I should have replaced the rotted boards rather than sheath over them with plywood as mentioned earlier in this thread), reflashed the chimney area, layed down new tar paper and reshingled the roof. 

I've patched some of the walls where the siding has fallen off just enough to "get by" for now. 

I built the new sliding door (well it isn't really "new" anymore) as the old one was rotting off it's hinges.  The fact that there are no overhangs on this barn causes some problems as well.