Future of Southern Yellow Pine?

[Okrafarmer]

As I was taught geography in the early 1960's, things may have changed a bit since then, but I thought THE Continental Divide in North America was the one running roughly North and South along the Rocky Mountains. I've never heard of the term being applied to the Smokey Mountains chain, although I suppose it does divide that section of the continent into northern and southern watersheds...

Just struck me funny, using that terminology in this case.

Herb

[Okrafarmer]

It's amazing how much the landscape has changed since the 1960's! The Rockies are no longer THE continental divide, unless you live there. . .   :D

I think it all depends who you ask, but I do know there's a sign up north of me in North Carolina that says you are crossing the Eastern Continental Divide. We're a lucky continent to have so many divides.

If anybody asked me (which they didn't), I would say that the Continental Divide (for North America, and South America, too) is that line that divides water runoff from flowing into the Atlantic Ocean (system) and the Pacific Ocean (system). Which means, in the US, the Continental Divide would go along in the Rockies. Of course, there are places in Canada and Alaska where rivers flow toward the Arctic Ocean, too. Possibly even North Dakota? Not sure.

I find it more helpful to think of the various watersheds. There are several huge watersheds that drain the bulk of the continent, and there are numerous smaller watersheds along the coastlines. The bigger ones include the waters that empty out from the Mississippi and the St. Lawrence in the east, the Columbia and Colorado in the west, and the Yukon (among others) in the north. Smaller rivers, such as the Potomock, Enoree, Kennebec, and so on, form smaller watersheds along the coast.

[captain_crunch]

Personaly till the 2012 thing is over me aint planting anything :D :P :P :P

[Okrafarmer]

Personaly till the 2012 thing is over me aint planting anything :D :P :P :P

:D :D :D

We won't have long to wait, will we!

[Magicman]

I sawed a few "super trees" today and they were terrible.  The growth rings were ½"-¾" with a few being less and some even more.  Some of the 2X4 & 2X6's had only 2-3 growth rings passing through them and many times I had to flip the cant 180° after each cut was made.  No way would any of it have passed SPIB.   :-\ 

I have trees growing that fast on my place that I see no way that they could ever make Chip-N-Saw or saw logs in the future.   :-\

[Okrafarmer]

I am carefully guarding all the immature shortleaf pines on profdan's property. They are nice and straight and tall, and no branches to speak of in the lower 2/3 of the tree. On the occasions I have cut shortleaf pines, I have found very tight growth rings. I am trying to harvest the virginia pines and use them for stuff (non-certified, of course).

Somebody tell me. For softwood for structural purposes, what is the optimum number of rings per inch? How much advantage is there, say for every additional 5 rings per inch? If they get too close, does that start to be a problem structurally?

I been told that the late-growth wood of the rings is the stronger portion. That trees with wider growth rings are stronger than those with narrower rings, because the late-growth is the portion that expands wide, where the early-growth is never very wide. Maybe the strength thing is only in hardwoods? This goes counter-intuitive to my previous training, which said that the closer together the rings are, the stronger the wood is.  :P ??? :P ??? :P ??? :P ???

[WDH]

What you say is true in hardwoods like oak.  Fast growth is manifested in a wide latewood band which has denser cell walls.  But not true in softwoods, primarily speaking of SYP.  In fast growth SYP, the fast growth is manifested in a wide earlywood band, and the wood is not as dense and strong as a slow growing tree where the earlywood and latewood are of comparable thickness.

[Okrafarmer]

Is it more important (in pines) for the two growths to be balanced, or to both be small?

And so am I right about the slow-growth pines like our shortleafs here, that they are "precious" as far as SYP's go? (They seem to account for less than 5% of the pines in my immediate area).

[WDH]

Slow growth results in ring balance in SYP, and that is what you are seeing in the shortleaf.  Here is very fast growth in loblolly.  Notice the width of the earlywood band.



 

[Okrafarmer]

 

What's that, about a ten-year-old tree, about 12" ABH?  ???   

I hope that isn't the future of SYP. If it is, they better be thinking pulpwood, biomass, etc.

Would have made for some interesting live-edge slabs in another 10-20 years. . . .  :

At that kind of growth rate, they better harvest them fast before they grow so big they get out of hand!

[WDH]

This was an 11 year old first thinning on my property.  Amazing growth for sure.  I suspect that the future will be in biomass and mass fiber.  Lumber will be reconstituted from the basic wood fiber, kinda like Engineered Wood Products today.  Progress  .

[Ianab]

This was an 11 year old first thinning on my property.  Amazing growth for sure.  I suspect that the future will be in biomass and mass fiber.  Lumber will be reconstituted from the basic wood fiber, kinda like Engineered Wood Products today.  Progress  .

Don't write off the fast growing trees for timber. This is how Radiata pine grows here in NZ.



About 13 years, and had to cut from both sides with a 20" bar. Still makes good sawlogs, although it's usually  grown to about 25 years before harvest.

A lot of research went into developing strains of trees that grow that fast, and still yield good lumber. The trees being grown now bear little resemblance to the original Radiata pines in California.

Ian

[Magicman]

Danny's example is what I was dealing with yesterday.  The DBH was about 15", with the 16' tops being about 12".  My opinion was that I was sawing some relatively weak 2X6's.   :-\

[SwampDonkey]

It's amazing how much the landscape has changed since the 1960's! The Rockies are no longer THE continental divide, unless you live there. . .   :D

I think it all depends who you ask, but I do know there's a sign up north of me in North Carolina that says you are crossing the Eastern Continental Divide. We're a lucky continent to have so many divides.

In 1670, Charles II grant royal charter to the Hudson's Bay Co. Its limits of ownership encompassed the head waters of all streams that headed to Hudson's Bay. This was from Labrador in the east, south past the 49th, west through Red River to the peaks of the Rocky Mountain divide. York Factory was to be the head office and established in 1684. Ships anchored at Five Fathom Hole , 7 miles down stream. This went on for 249 years and was closed in 1957. You can see the building from satellite photos.

Continental Divide must be an American term because there are several divides in Canada. Heck going from Alberta to the west coast there are at least 4. Rivers flow to the east, north, south and west between Alberta and BC alone. :D

Here in NB we have one, pretty much smack dab in the Christmas Mountains. Everything flows from there. ;D And it's all been cut off those mountains or blew down by now. Satellite images show a pretty bare bunch of mountains.

[SwampDonkey]

Up here fir is far weaker than spruce. A fir will snap off like a match in the wind, until a spruce is rotten it usually uproots from wind. Fir also grows about twice as fast as spruce. Especially so when compared to black or red spruce. White spruce grows quicker. I walk by a white spruce plantation that was put in 30 years ago, maybe a little longer and it has way under performed. It's on good soil, but the leader growth if you look is quite short year to year. Spacing was a little wide it seems. I think the stock was not matched for the location. I have wild white spruce that grows faster and looks nicer.

[Okrafarmer]

It looks to me like Ian's radiata has more even distribution of early growth and late growth, so if that is the important thing, then it should be relatively strong, I guess?

Is that your MS 310, Ian? I used to have one.

[Dodgy Loner]

I sawed a few "super trees" today and they were terrible.  The growth rings were ½"-¾" with a few being less and some even more.  Some of the 2X4 & 2X6's had only 2-3 growth rings passing through them and many times I had to flip the cant 180° after each cut was made.  No way would any of it have passed SPIB.   :-\ 

Au contraire, MM. Every commercial sawmill within 100 miles of you saws thousands of tons of that stuff day-in and day-out. The primary reason the wood would not make a certain grade would be due to excessive knots. Since the SuperTree seedlings have been bred to grow fast, straight, and to self-prune effectively, they are highly desired by mills and loggers alike. The old IP land (SuperTrees are an IP development) in this area has some of the nicest plantation pine I've ever seen. SuperTree plantations, due to their superior form, also have a much higher percentage that make poles, which will get you about double what a good sawlog goes for. The worst stuff is the old unimproved Forestry Commission seedlings. Crooked, limby, ugly. Now that is some low-grade wood.

The primary shortcoming of fast-grown plantation pine is not in its strength, but its stability. Anyone who has nailed down a treated 2x6 only to watch it bow or crook a foot as it dries can attest to this. However, no matter how quickly you grow a loblolly pine, it will still be as strong or stronger than spruce, just due to the nature of the wood.

[Ianab]

The primary shortcoming of fast-grown plantation pine is not in its strength, but its stability

The issue is probably juvenile wood. Those first 7 or so growth rings in the centre. In a slower growing tree that juvenile wood concentrated in the 1 or 2" around the pith, and everyone knows it's going to be unstable.

With a fast grown pine it may be 6" either side of the the pith. Where you would be expecting more stable mature wood.

So although the trees could be harvested and sawn at 10-15 years, they are generally thinned to waste, and the best ones grown to ~25years, so they can lay down some good stable wood . Pruning the lower branches off means this wood is both clear AND stable, even with growth rings 1" apart. The branch stubs and knots are all left in the central core, which is low quality juvenile wood anyway.

Other strategy is use seedlings from cuttings, not seeds. By tanking cuttings from a 7 year old tree, the seedling is then genetically 7 years old. It produces less juvenile wood. Also lets the cuttings be taken from the saplings showing the best growth and form in the nursery.

The wider "early wood" in the NZ pines is probably the long growing season. The trees basically grow for 10 months, then a couple of months of winter where the late wood is laid down.

Ian

[Magicman]

Dodgy Loner, you made me feel a bit better about my plantation.  I was thinking that with this fast growing stuff, I would not have a market other than for pulp.  Mine was planted in '05, and I know that I have some 12" trees.  Not most, but some.

Yesterday, I did have to flip my cant 180° sometimes after every cut.  I guess that this was the first time to get involved with this stage of growth.  I know that I have never sawed logs with this wide growth rings.

[SwampDonkey]

Tree improvement is a big deal in forestry. Even up here, $millions invested by both government and industry. Some forest companies have better seedlings than others. Government here has good seedlings and only government seedlings get planted on public lands in NB. Here, our silviculture program funded by government requires a certain quality seedling to and not just dug up from the road ditch to transplant.

[braggforester]

Look into Longleaf pine, at 10-15 years you could start selling pine straw.

[Okefenokee_D]

Where do you see the market for yellow pine heading in the next 25 years?  Is planted pine a good investment nowadays, with all the engineered and "green" wood being so popular?  What species would you plant (south Georgia)?

Definately Longleaf. Slash in lower wet areas.

People like Loblolly because it generally grows quicker and people can do a faster rotation on it.

[Okefenokee_D]

Look into Longleaf pine, at 10-15 years you could start selling pine straw.

Even earlier than that if your soil is good.

$200/acre for longleaf. Hearing some folks getting around $300/acre if they sit there and account for every bale loaded on trailer and sell per bale.

Irrigated farm land is $300/acre+ last time I heard.

[WDH]

There are consequences of baling and removing pine straw.  Much of the recycled nutrients available to the trees are in the needles.  As the needles break down, the nutrients are released and again available for tree growth.  Repeated, frequent removals of straw removes these nutrients and will impact the site fertility over time.

I worked for the largest private (corporate) timberland owner in North America and no pine strawing was allowed on any of the property.  Not to say that you should not do it, but you might want to consider some supplemental fertilization with some of the straw sales proceeds. 

[nativewolf]

There are consequences of baling and removing pine straw.  Much of the recycled nutrients available to the trees are in the needles.  As the needles break down, the nutrients are released and again available for tree growth.  Repeated, frequent removals of straw removes these nutrients and will impact the site fertility over time.

I worked for the largest private (corporate) timberland owner in North America and no pine strawing was allowed on any of the property.  Not to say that you should not do it, but you might want to consider some supplemental fertilization with some of the straw sales proceeds.

While transitioning to grad school I did some research on pine straw raking and disposal of treated municipal biosolids to replace the nutrients and organic matter.  However, LL pine sites are used to pine needle removal anyway so maybe it is not needed.  In fact, if you are raking that's the real cash crop, not the trees.  
I think W concerns on raking were not well thought out, the old coastal LL pine forest were fire ecosystems, that organic matter mostly coooked off every other year or every 5 years anyway.  The fires not only volatilized organic matter but also changed nutrient content of the topsoil.  But that's just LL pine's story.  Lob was just a wetland/swamp oriented pine with a limited range on the coast, compared to ll pine.  Some people rake lob straw but I never got that as it rots so quickly.