Messing with Sketchup - my cabin idea

[Rooster]

Brother Jay,

There's that Asian influence we have heard so much about!!!   ;)

Those tie-beam to top-plate connections are gravity held...correct?

Also, is your definition of edge rule the same as square rule? or different? 
(If the answer to this secondary question is longer than "it's the same", feel free to start a new chapter...I mean, "thread". thanks! ;D)


Rooster

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Rooster, and John,

John, I though about a few things after Rooster jogged my memory.  Lap Joints, particularly House lap joints are in a classification of gravity joint, but it truly is a misnomer.  In a seismic or wind event you do not get an exact load on the joint and they cam together even tighter.  When even trying to take them apart after many year, (or centuries,) they only come apart one way, any other cams the joint tight.  Also know that I just gave you two quick and easy samples of that family of joint from a overworked "brain," that is faltering me in my winter days.  There are multiple ways to also lock them together with spline and tenon, one being a version of the  "hell joint on a teasel tenon," and with modern timber framing having mechanical and thermal enveloped incorporated into the structure; these exterior joints are further locked and stiffened. Which is also what I was explaining about frame stiffening as well.

Yes Rooster "edge rule," and "square rule," are synonymous with each other and very similar to "mill rule," all relatively new methods, (less than 300 years.)  "Scribe rule" is the oldest with a close second being "Line rule," those two have been around for almost 3000 to 5000 years, depending on the literature/research sited.
/
Till later my friends,

jay

[Ljohnsaw]

Ok, Jay,

I won't say I gave up, but I tried your 3/4/5 and re-drew the rafter and braces.  Take a look.  I will admit that it is more pleasing to the eye.  :  On the west end above the door, there will be two big windows on the second floor.  On the left half of the bent will be a big window or two.  Between the girts placed at 3'6" and 7' will be a window in every bay.

I did NOT recalculate the rafters and beams  I may be able to downsize but probably not much.  I have yet to design the second floor joists so they "fit" with the other timber sizes.  The first floor will remain dimensional lumber since it will only be visible from the basement.  That's all for tonight!

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi John,

In short, I think you have found the style that fits you.    You seem to have found a theme I would describe as contemporary, "Germanic-Eastern European."  At this point of the exchange I think I shall fall silent, and be just an observer.  I can not really give anymore design advice that I think you would find useful, that I haven't already shared.  The frame is so over built that I can't imagine any PE with, or without, timber framing experience having much difficulty with the frame, so you should have not difficulty getting the design approved from a structural integrity perspective.

I thought you would be happy with the 3-4-5 theme component and you took that to heart.  I really do like the overall shape and layout of the frame.  In closing, if I was to critique the frame it would be as follows:

Roof pitch excellent in all regard: traditional theme, roofing longevity, percipient shedding and head room for second floor.

From the Gable end with the cathedral ceiling, I would replace the Gable and the next two bents in with a "Cruck Frames," as there is no need for all the other work as there is not second floor in that location.  In addition, it would add statement to the theme of the building with out adding work or cost.

It you are going to have this many braces you do not need to design wall purlins into the timber frame system, they will come naturally with whatever mechanical/thermal envelope system you choose.  That additional timber framing only adds cost and  work.  The opposite is true in my design system, I use the purlins to stiffen the frame, having no obliques, and any additional rigidity that is required by PE is contained in the mechanical/thermal envelope of roof and wall diaphragms.

In closing, I think you are doing well in finding your "voice," design wise. 

Good Luck,  ;D  ;)

jay

[Ljohnsaw]

Jay,

Thank you for your pesistence in opening my eyes.

In regard to the open frame in the front portion:  I may mess around with that a bit. As drawn, I can easily add more second floor area if I choose to in the future. I like the feel of big timbers so I'm not oppressed by their presence. But I will explore more.

In regard to the wall purlins (girts):  they are present for two reasons, a place to anchor the 1x wall boards (wrap and strap) and to frame out the windows. If there is a simpler, faster way, I'm all ears.

Jim has been strangely silent, I hope all is well. Perhaps he is just letting you express yourself.

[Ljohnsaw]

OK, for all you SketchUp users - I thought I saw it once but now cannot find it.  Where is the Xray toggle?  Is it only in the Pro version??  ???

[Rooster]

View---Face style---xray

[Ljohnsaw]

View---Face style---xray

Thank you!  I thought I was going crazy!!!

[Jim_Rogers]

John:
I haven't taken the time to download your latest version.
I may some time, but kind of busy now.
I spend 24 hours plowing snow the other day as we got 24 or 25 inches here in one storm.

I still don't have all my sawmill yard cleaned up yet.
I spent several hours out there today, pushing it back, scooping it up and hauling it off.
There is always something to do.

Rained today on top of all this snow.
Very heavy now.
Suppose to be 40° to 45°F every day this week, so it should melt a lot of it.

Jim Rogers

[Ljohnsaw]

Jim,

Good to hear that you are just really busy.  Don't download my plans from above.  I will be posting a new-and-improved plan shortly, perhaps tonight.  I spent a lot of time in x-ray mode clearing up some of the joints where braces were coming in.  I think I've master the "component" idea so I can work pretty fast now.  I need to do some sections to make sure I have enough wood left in the posts to support the load.

John

[Ljohnsaw]

OK, here is my latest plan.  I've added the flooring and spent quite a bit of time getting some stairs to work.  The stair to the basement will be framed out and have a door do seal out the cold.  While the upstairs could be turned into bedrooms, I plan on just leaving as a sleeping loft for when we have guests with kids visiting.  The extensions on the front foundation are meant to hold beams for the deck.  Next I will be framing out the two bedrooms, bath and the kitchen.  Comments and suggestions always welcome.  To get better views, I've used layers pretty extensively so try turning different things on and off.

[Rooster]

John,

Welcome back!

It is really starting to come together!  Here are some comments and concerns.

Your stairs are a bit steep...you have almost an 8" rise and only a 8.5" run.

Have you thought about moving the the stairs one more bay closer to the front of the house (towards the end-wall with the door)?  This way you could have the top of the stairs end or attach to the second floor tie-beam,...it would run parallel to the front loft area, and you wouldn't have to cut through the upper floor, making a more open area up in the loft.

Could you timber frame the supports for the porch, instead of using concrete?...could be a nice accent and not so monolithic.

I also came up with an alternative to the lowest girts or nailers.  If you secured a 2x4 between the outer posts, flush to the outside of frame wall, and then raised the joists to be flush with the top of that 2x4, you could then nail the bottom of your first outer layer of sheathing to that 2x4 instead of the girt.  It's an easy change and eliminates a large number of joints to cut. If you really needed to, you could adjust the length of the posts to keep the same tie-beam elevation as before.

Lookin' good!

Rooster



 

[Ljohnsaw]

Rooster,
Great ideas...

Regarding the lower girts:  I was thinking of just nailing into the floorboards but that would give me end grain on the bent ends. Your plan also simplifies the floor joists.

Regarding the porch supports:  there will be some back fill around the cabin. I'm also looking to keep the snow off the basement entrance. 10' is not an uncommon amount of snow at my location.

Regarding the stairs:  they are only 43 degree!  I could slide back in the bay a little now that I have repositioned the basement stairs and go with a little lower slope like 40 or 38.  I don't want to move into the second bay as that would complicate the kitchen entrance (north of the stairs) and break up the great room.  I'll take a look, however.

Thanks
r

[swampfox]

Good Looking Frame.  So what's the Ponderosa running per bd/ft?  Frame looks like about 18,000 bd/ft.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi John,

It's look'n good, Dido Roosters observations.

Regards,

Jay

[Ljohnsaw]

Good Looking Frame.  So what's the Ponderosa running per bd/ft?  Frame looks like about 18,000 bd/ft.

Swampfox,
Wow, that is a scarey number!  Since I will be harvesting my own trees, it will be free (since my time is free) :D

I plan to use three species of wood (not counting the oak pegs):  Beams, posts, joists and rafters will be Ponderosa, wall and roof boards will be incense cedar and flooring will be quaking aspen. I have plenty of each.

I'm guessing I will need somewhere between 300 and 400 pegs. I guess I could fill my time next winter producing them - or do any of you purchase pegs?

[Rooster]

I just did a search for California building codes for stairs and this is what I found.

http://www.bertramblondina.com/articles/4-stairbuilding-techniques/42-stair-building-codes

R311.7.4.1 Riser Height. The maximum riser height shall be 7 3/4 inches. The riser shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch.
          R311.7.4.2 Tread Depth. The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches. The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread's leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed  the smallest by more than 3/8 inch.

I try to stay close to 7.5" rise by 10" run...FYI

Also, your flooring will expand and contract with the seasons and the relative humidity.  Asking the flooring to pull "double duty" by making it also a "Structural component" may be unwise.

If you have the time...make your own trunnels.

If you have the money, after you get tired of making trunnels...buy your trunnels.

Pullin'for-yah  Brother,

Rooster
920-728-zero 3 five 3

[Ljohnsaw]

I just did a search for California building codes for stairs and this is what I found.

http://www.bertramblondina.com/articles/4-stairbuilding-techniques/42-stair-building-codes

R311.7.4.1 Riser Height. The maximum riser height shall be 7 3/4 inches. The riser shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch.
          R311.7.4.2 Tread Depth. The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches. The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread's leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed  the smallest by more than 3/8 inch.

I try to stay close to 7.5" rise by 10" run...FYI

Roger Rooster... ;)

Also, your flooring will expand and contract with the seasons and the relative humidity.  Asking the flooring to pull "double duty" by making it also a "Structural component" may be unwise.

Yeah, I kinda figured that so I didn't do it.

If you have the time...make your own trunnels.

If you have the money, after you get tired of making trunnels...buy your trunnels.

Pullin'for-yah  Brother,

Rooster
920-728-zero 3 five 3

OK, trunnels, not pegs, though my spell checker doesn't like it!  Obviously, the best way to make them is to split wood so the grain is not compromised with cutting on a table saw or such.  I think I read here that making them octagonal is really about all you need to do besides giving them a slight taper to get them in the hole.  Sound right?  As far as buying, I saw some for about 50 cents a piece - that can add up!!!  If I value my time, I'm sure I could get my price all the way down to $1.00!

Thanks all.  Back to SketchUp!

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hey John,

Peg or Trunnel we won't gig you for it.  FYU furniture is pegged, timber frames get trunnels, but language changes and there are different names in different culture.  Rooster's advice is very sound on all points, nothing to really add.  Having made many trunnels and pegs in my life, it can be laborious work. 

Now for round, octagonal or even round w/square ends, the strength of riven grain is true, and good manufactures of trunnels for timber frames know this.  Now one issue I have noted in recent years is they have begun using kiln dried wood.  If you are going to "draw bore," your joints they will need to be soaked in oil or water, I've seen both.  The trunnel needs to be somewhat supple, there by "bending," slightly as it draws the joint tight.  You will also need "draw pins," to do the job well.  By the way, it isn't a scientific test or proof, not by any means, but we always test out ideas, and on several occasions over the years we have set up trials to compare the two-"riven," or "sawn."  The difference, as long as you used straight grained wood, was none to marginal between the two.  Also use a striking cap over the trunnel as you drive them in, this can save you from miss hits, deformations, broken trunnels for glanced blows, or even dents in your frame because you have enlarge your target.  I use steel 3 lb sledge on both my chisels and my trunnels, but I have been told I can be a beast.  ;) :D :D

Keep us up to speed.

jay

[jander3]

I like to make my own pegs using a shaving horse; however, I am not into timber framing for production.   I cut 1" x 1" lumber on the saw mill, cut them down to pieces that are about 12" long, and then throw them in a tub of water to soak for a day or two. 

It takes a couple of minutes with a shaving horse to make an 8-sided tapered peg for drawboring.   At my place, peg making is normally done in the evening and it is closely associated with shooting the bull with friends and a beer or two.



 

Shaving horse...the seat is way too short for a tall guy, but that is what was around when I made this up.

[Ljohnsaw]

I<<Snip>>
Shaving horse...the seat is way too short for a tall guy, but that is what was around when I made this up.

Nice.  Actually another one on my to-do list along with the mare and colt.

[Ljohnsaw]

A little more work completed.  Spent a lot of time in x-ray mode adjusting joint positions.  Finished the stairs, raised the first floor 2" to make room for the perimeter 2x4 nailing sill, added walls for the bedrooms with closets (need to add the bath and kitchen) and added wall boards (need trimming) and roof boards.  And need windows!  See attached.

Comments welcome!



 


Ops!  I saw the problem with the upper floor cut out not being big enough for the stairs - ignore that minor error!

[Rooster]

John,

It looks like you are setting yourself up for success!!

Here are a few problem areas:

The interior post diagonal at the bottom of the first-to-second floor stair case is in the way...when your wife cracks her noggin on it coming down the stairs you will feel her pain...haha

The second floor joists on either side of the stair case stringers are too close...Your stairs seem to be legal, but the floor opening may not be...could you push them to outside the stringers? 


 



The first floor joists that dead-end into the stairwell opening in the first floor are secured to a beam...this beam is attached to a doubled up joist on one side, but only a single on the other side...you would be asking that single joist to carry half of that section of floor.


 



The posts that frame out the front door look like they were cut off...could you extend them up to the tie-beam, wrapping around the lintel (top of the door frame)?  You could also put in a transom light/window above the door...eh?  Any other endwall girts?


 



The cut-out for the "garage" door in the foundation under the deck does not leave a lot of concrete above that door. I am afraid, especially in "quake country" that it will eventually crack.  Could you replace it with a steel I-beam or even another wood beam that can be covered and protected from the weather?


 

Well I hope i didn't beat you up too bad...lots of guys here who wish they could be doing what you are...myself included.

Rooster

[jander3]

Looking great! 

Looks like all the tenons on the post are cut with an offset of 3".     Normally, a tenon would be laid out 2" (tongue size on square) from the reference face.   The tenon would end be offset, but that works fined. 

The layout for the King posts and ridge are  done from the timber centerline. In that case you probably want the tenon centered.

Girt tenons are on the outside of the building. Where you just going to nail these in.   You can put the tenon on the inside and slip them in during assembly like you do for a knee brace.

I would drop some of the Knee braces in the open areas inside the building.

Knee braces with girts on the building end looks problematic. As you when you cut this you will not have two reference faces.   I would drop that upper girt and move the braces to the outside (reference face) of the building.

[Ljohnsaw]

John,

It looks like you are setting yourself up for success!!

Here are a few problem areas:

The interior post diagonal at the bottom of the first-to-second floor stair case is in the way...when your wife cracks her noggin on it coming down the stairs you will feel her pain...haha

Ops!  Well, it would just be me cracking my noggin!  I lost my wife 3 years ago now.  My son won't be hitting that for a number of years and my daughter is short enough that she would miss it! 

Can I just eliminate that brace?  ???  Should I reverse the measurements (3/4/5 to a 4/3/5)?

The second floor joists on either side of the stair case stringers are too close...Your stairs seem to be legal, but the floor opening may not be...could you push them to outside the stringers? 

I'll need to check on the opening.  I think the stairs are wide enough - this is a "non-living" area - just a sleeping loft.  Technically, I could get away with a ship's ladder!

The first floor joists that dead-end into the stairwell opening in the first floor are secured to a beam...this beam is attached to a doubled up joist on one side, but only a single on the other side...you would be asking that single joist to carry half of that section of floor.

Thanks, missed that one.  I still need to engineer the joist/beam to carry that load. 

The posts that frame out the front door look like they were cut off...could you extend them up to the tie-beam, wrapping around the lintel (top of the door frame)?  You could also put in a transom light/window above the door...eh?  Any other endwall girts?

Nice thought - I'll give it a go.  The other opening will be some large fixed windows, probably a pair of 4' sliding door panels.

The cut-out for the "garage" door in the foundation under the deck does not leave a lot of concrete above that door. I am afraid, especially in "quake country" that it will eventually crack.  Could you replace it with a steel I-beam or even another wood beam that can be covered and protected from the weather?

I haven't visited that area in a while.  It started out as a 2' beam.  I'm looking into Faswall block and it would end up with two reinforced concrete 4.5x4.5 "beams" in the blocks.  There will be VERY little weight on these and full of re-bar!

Well I hope i didn't beat you up too bad...lots of guys here who wish they could be doing what you are...myself included.

Rooster

Thanks for the pointers/ideas.