Confused about all this AD and KD talk! HELP!

[Schramm]

Look after a year of looking at a mill before buying I thought that I had the answers that I needed to make a logical answer.  Now I am not sure that I know if I made the right choice.  Why?  Well let me explain, I really do want to cut and dry new lumber but primarily want to cut up barn wood the problem now is that with all this talk about PPB and them coming back after I pay to get the wood kiln heated and dried, I actually worry about putting this wood in my house.  I have gone through all the wood that I have and it shows NO tell tale signs of PPB activity.  My plans was to rip the wood in 1/2 (6"), joint it and then run through a planer and at that point load it on my trailer and drive it up to a mill that has a kiln to rent to kill the bugs and kiln dry it.  So now I see a post started by DOC which seems that it contradicts everything that I thought that I understood.  I planned on cutting down barn beams starting in 2 weeks and have hired a mill to kill the bugs and kiln dry it as well as turning it into tongue and groove flooring for $1.35 per ft and now I do not know if any of this is worth the trouble.  Some one please explain to me if what I want to do will work?!

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

PPB can infest any grainy hardwood that is not under 8% MC about.  Even if the wood has been kiln dried, the kiln drying process if done hot enough only kills existing populations and not future populations.

What you suggest is fine.  What you need to do is after the wood has been kiln dried, keep it very dry and away from any potential sources of the PPB...away from untreated wood, especially.

I would expect that every large oak flooring company has had PPB claims that they have had to pay...I have worked with many of them in this respect.  But in these cases it is often next to impossible to determine where the PPB came from...the flooring mill, the storage facility, the builder, or the homwowner's furniture.  Sometimes we can eliminate the flooring mill if they have good kiln drying and prompt manufacturing after kiln drying.

Also the PPB affects grainy hardwoods...lots of your barn timber might be softwoods?

[Ianab]

Yeah, the wood that you get out of the kiln will be no more at risk than any other wood, that you might have sawn from a tree a week ago.

Main thing is proper storage, keeping it dry and away from infected wood. If you find infested wood around your property, then deal with it. Have a bonfire, kiln dry it, spray some borate or something.

Once your reclaimed boards are nailed to someone's living room wall, with a coat of varnish on it, then it's pretty safe, unless their house is already infested.....

Ian

[Schramm]

Ok, I feel better now.  I have a building that I store the untreated wood and I have another building that I will storing my finished product.  Most of the wood that I am re-claiming is heart pine, red pine, douglas fir, hemlock HOWEVER I just bought but have not picked up 1500 board feet of 9/4 x 11" Chestnut barn rafters.  These I have been searching for and am excited to get but have me the most worried.  The wood is going to start at my wood shop to be worked, then when it goes to the kiln mill I will bring in new material as well as be milling some NEW green Black walnut logs.  Once then are kiln dried I have a building that I plan on storing in but when I build something I of course carry that wood back to my wood shop to do the woodworking.  I hope this makes sense.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Iana and Gene,

I would appreciate if you could refer me to any new research on the re-infestation probabilities of wood once dry below 20% MC. I was a state certified supervisor in general and commercial pest control for a number of years.  During that time, what I knew of, and had learned about most wood infesting Coleoptera, was that it could not survive viably in any wood that was below 20% MC or below, or in a fluctuating environment with less than 75% to 80% humidity.  There are a few desert dwelling subspecies that can survive less, but they present as species specific to only certain tree varieties.  I have never read any viable research about them re-infesting wood under 20% moisture content or wood that even had the slightest of treatment of even general furniture polish.  Any treatment by most varnishes, oils or related wood finishes would leave the wood protected.  I know all cases I came in contact with for the state of Connecticut was larva, that was already present in the starching sap wood, and not from a new infestation, this included pieces in several museums and in private collections of antiques.  I did have some cases of wood that was kept in a very moist and humid basement present with what appeared to be new infestation but the humidity was casing the piece way more damage that the insects.  Any reference research would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jay

[Ianab]

Jay, I don't have any scientific research, just real life experience.

Furniture, and even house structures here in NZ can be attacked by borer beetles at normal house humidity levels. That would be a wood moisture content of maybe 13-15%  Borate treated timber or resistant species like cypress and the heartwood of a lot of species resist them, but they will chomp into the less resistant stuff.

I re-finished an old dresser that belonged to Lil's grandparents, so probably 50 years old. The imported Oak was fine, and the local Rimu secondary wood was also fine. But the pine plywood of the back and mirror support was basically sawdust held together by paper thin remnants. The borers had hollowed it out over the years. I used some treated pine ply, and reclaimed oak to replace the bug eaten bits, so it should be good for at least another 50 years now.

So I'm thinking that they can live below 20% MC, but there is probably some lower limit for the various species? I think I have read ~13% for some types?

Ian

Edit, we may also be talking about different species of bug here too? These ones sure attack dry(ish)  softwoods.

[Schramm]

Honestly from what I have read and understand there are many maybes and all environments and different, what is common in 1 area may not be common in another.  I can only speak of Illinois & Florida as those are the 2 states that I have lived in and what you find in Florida is really not present in Illinois.  Sure PPB could always be a issue but then again so could carpenter ants or termites depending on how and where you store.  I guess if you kiln dry then stick the wood in an open lean-too laying on a dirt floor you could end out with all kinds of messes.  Before tonight I felt confident in my purchase and I must admit that I was a little intimidated in both buying a mill and drying wood but honestly thought that I had a great grasp on it until these posts came up.  I have been working with wood for 30+ years and in all that time I think that I have only seen termites 3 times and I have renovated over 40 homes in some of the worse conditions.  While I trust what you are saying could be true to your area it may be something I dont have to worry about as much here.  I have cut into over 100 slabs of barn siding and have found nothing but solid beautiful wood (red pine).  In fact the MC is less then 5% but to be safe I am having it heated to 140 in a kiln and dried.  By no means am I the smartest person but by far I am not the dumbest and I believe what I have read is true.  Jay is certified as well so I trust him.  I do appreciate the additional comments as everyone should chime in but I guess my point is that the way I see it is there a different moisture level in Illinois then Mississippi and other states as well.  I will let you know how things are going once I take the first 1000 bf to the mill.

Rob

[Schramm]

 

 

Ok read this and explain this to me.  The pink or red area is where PPB are mostly prominent in the USA, these states are much more humid then here in Illinois.  I did find PPB a lot in furniture in Florida but have never found then in Illinois (not to say that they are not around).  Termites and carpenter ants are in Illinois pretty heavy.  Doc you are in WI have you found PPG in your wood?

Rob

[Ianab]

One thing to consider.

This barn wood you are buying has sat in a relatively open barn structure, in your local climate, for the last 50-100 years right? So the chances of it suddenly being attacked by bugs because it's moved to your place and been re-sawn is probably not that high?

These bugs DO exists, and given the right conditions DO attack relatively dry wood, I've seen it myself. But by the same token my 50 year old house has not been eaten, yet..... 

I suggest you just carry on with your plan, just be vigilant about the possibility of wood eating bugs. Proper storage, general tidiness etc.

Fresh sawn green wood is not a risk as the PPB beetles that we are talking about do not infest that. It may contain other bugs, but they are species that die off as the wood dries out.  Heck, sometimes you can even hear bugs munching on green pine logs if it's quiet. But get it sawn and dry, and all you find is mummified remains, or the empty holes of the ones that got out in time.

Luckily there seems to be no species that infests both green and dry wood, otherwise wood working would become a real nightmare.

Ian

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The anobiid PPB, which the map shows, prefers wetter wood...12% MC or higher.  We find this in ash lumber oftentimes.  It is a big problem in KY and OH, so I do wonder about the map.  we even have them inWI.  But it is not what I was talking about. 

Note that I used the term "lyctid" PPB.  It is the lyctid PPB that likes dry wood.  Check the USDA Wood Handbook for "proof" that the lyctid likes very dry wood.  There are also a few African PPB that like dry wood.  And there is the old house borer too and it likes dry wood.  Lyctid is the one that damages dry hardwoods.

[beenthere]

Honestly from what I have read and understand there are many maybes and all environments and different, what is common in 1 area may not be common in another.  I can only speak of Illinois & Florida as those are the 2 states that I have lived in and what you find in Florida is really not present in Illinois.  Sure PPB could always be a issue but then again so could carpenter ants or termites depending on how and where you store.  I guess if you kiln dry then stick the wood in an open lean-too laying on a dirt floor you could end out with all kinds of messes.  Before tonight I felt confident in my purchase and I must admit that I was a little intimidated in both buying a mill and drying wood but honestly thought that I had a great grasp on it until these posts came up.  I have been working with wood for 30+ years and in all that time I think that I have only seen termites 3 times and I have renovated over 40 homes in some of the worse conditions.  While I trust what you are saying could be true to your area it may be something I dont have to worry about as much here.  I have cut into over 100 slabs of barn siding and have found nothing but solid beautiful wood (red pine).  In fact the MC is less then 5% but to be safe I am having it heated to 140 in a kiln and dried.  By no means am I the smartest person but by far I am not the dumbest and I believe what I have read is true.  Jay is certified as well so I trust him.  I do appreciate the additional comments as everyone should chime in but I guess my point is that the way I see it is there a different moisture level in Illinois then Mississippi and other states as well.  I will let you know how things are going once I take the first 1000 bf to the mill.

Rob

Rob
I think you have things very well sorted out, and what you just surmised is what I planned to post back to you. Am glad that you have it figured out and while so many want to add extra tidbits (which all in all is good but we want to sound like experts), often they can just add confusion to the issue at hand. I say go onward with your plan, and just keep your eyes open and let us know how things are going.

Life is such that if we took into consideration all the "dangers" or things that "could" happen, we wouldn't dare roll outta bed in the mornings. 

[Schramm]

DOC,

Seems to me with the info that you give that air drying lumber would be at the highest risk since it seems to sit in the open and would be at a 12% or higher MC for a longer period of time.  It is true that the PPB that I was referring to was the anobiid but honestly if you take into account the carpenter ants in the Illinois & Wisconsin you would think that would be an issue as well.  Then again I have bought plenty of wood from Home Depot over the years that had a MC of over 12%, simply stacked it ran a fan on it and allowed it to acclimate for a couple of days before using it.  No issues with bugs there either.  I think that you make many good points to be careful where you put the wood and follow proper heating and drying to a MC of 6-8% but I think to look into this further is like sitting around the house bummed out because you might end out with cancer.

[Schramm]

Beenthere,

I totally agree, how restricted would life be if we worried about each thing in life?  I think that if you go into everything with caution and forethought and do a little research you will be fine.  Right now and I laugh home shows are riddled with people using barn wood from barn to wall.  This has never been my intent, I have always planned on doing this with kiln drying and heating.  I have been in business for myself for *DanG near 27 years and in that time I have developed my business by knowing what I was doing before doing it.  My problem is "experts" without a degree.  I would definatly think that the people at WoodMizer would know what they are talking about and while they do warn of PPB, ants and so on they and others do not make it out nearly as bad as some.

Rob

[beenthere]

Rob
No need to worry about the ants, as they don't bother dry, solid wood. They are a good indicator that there is high moisture wood AND decay (i.e a water leak or unvented area that is rotting the wood). But carpenter ants don't eat good wood, only nest in rotted wood.
Look forward to your endeavor.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

I can add the following about most of our native ant species.  Ants are a variety of Hymenoptera (bees, wasps, ants, and sawflies) and most, (not all mind you,) are cavity dwellers.  As Beenthere said, "they don't eat wood in general," only chew it, and seldom new or solid wood. They are looking for a moist environment to build a nest. 

If you can take two solid pieces of any thing, wood, steel aluminum, and place it 5-10 mm (.25 to .375") apart, they will build a nest.  They are looking for voids of this configuration.  That is why you can find them in a thresh hold of a sliding glass door with metal framing.  They are also very territorial.  If they live in the door like that by a deck, they make the deck there territory and will keep it clean and other ant colonies away, not that most of us would want them there.  ;)  They colony would eventually "bud," and you have more ants, so getting them out of the house in a safe and effective manner, is usually a good idea.

Regards, 

jay

[Dodgy Loner]

I re-finished an old dresser that belonged to Lil's grandparents, so probably 50 years old. The imported Oak was fine, and the local Rimu secondary wood was also fine. But the pine plywood of the back and mirror support was basically sawdust held together by paper thin remnants. The borers had hollowed it out over the years. I used some treated pine ply, and reclaimed oak to replace the bug eaten bits, so it should be good for at least another 50 years now.

I could be wrong, but it certainly sounds like this was the result of silverfish damage, and not PPB. Silverfish are notorious for eating paper and glue.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I do think that the anobiid PPB map is a big error.  Notice that they have the entire state of AZ.  In truth, the only hardwood growing in that area is aspen but harvest is small.  The RH in that area is very low.  The northern part has snow and cold weather.  Further, the anobiid is found frequently in TN, OH, KY and WI I know and likely other states not highlighted.  In southern FL, what hardwoods would be at risk?  Note that WI is more humid than Columbia, SC, so humidity is not the issue.

When you read the text, they also say that it is 1/16 - 3/8" with a larger one being 1/4".  Interesting math indeed.

[Ianab]

I could be wrong, but it certainly sounds like this was the result of silverfish damage, and not PPB. Silverfish are notorious for eating paper and glue.

Nope this was untreated pine plywood and solid wood mirror frame. You could see some borer holes in it. All that was left was "paper thin" wood, inside was just dust. The mirror was the only thing holding it together. Took the glass off and the wooden frame basically crumbled.

But it was only the pine parts that where attacked. The other (more durable) woods didn't even have a single borer hole.

Ian

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hi Dodgy Loner,

Silver Fish Lepisma sp can't really cause any damage to wood at all.  Books, tapestries, silk, etc., and if they haven't' eaten in a year or so, they will do some damage to leather.  Very much a museum pest but relatively easy to deal with.

Doc,

I concur, that map is untrustworthy from what I can tell.  There are just to many species and to many conditional variables for a map like that to be accurate.

Regards,

jay

[Dodgy Loner]

I could be wrong, but it certainly sounds like this was the result of silverfish damage, and not PPB. Silverfish are notorious for eating paper and glue.

Nope this was untreated pine plywood and solid wood mirror frame. You could see some borer holes in it. All that was left was "paper thin" wood, inside was just dust. The mirror was the only thing holding it together. Took the glass off and the wooden frame basically crumbled.

Gotcha - I couldn't tell from your first post that the mirror stand was solid wood - it sounded like the plywood was the only thing attacked.

Silver Fish Lepisma sp can't really cause any damage to wood at all. 

I know that, but thanks.

[Schramm]

Here is what I know about everything in life and nature, that no matter where you are things are different somewhere else.  I do not know what part of WI Doc is in but I am literally 1 hour 30 minutes from WI and go there all the time as it is where I get the majority of my barn wood.  While I agree the map seems wrong how many things do you go at in life with the idea that you are going to fail?  If it is a lot then I see why all the worry about the bugs.  I have been comforted by the guy that owns the kiln that his kiln hits temps of 170 and he holds it there for 48 total hours on barn wood before he starts the dehumidifing.

On another note, today I took 2 of the worst looking boards that I had and cut them into strips and then ran the strips through my planer until there was 3/8" left and then I chopped that up into 1" pieces and all I found was A HUGE MESS TO CLEAN UP!!!!  Be knowledgeable about what you do, be cautious about what you do but follow the rules of proper drying and I dont see where you can go wrong.  I mean I am getting my wood from Illinois and Wisconsin not AREA 57!

[Schramm]

By the way today I did moisture tests on the barn wood that I have and its MC was 5%, by the info that I have been reading I shouldnt even need to do anything to it, right?  I still am going to but I dont think that I should have to.  I buy from the same guy all the time, until latley I have never even thought about anything but MC or EMC because it is old wood.  I am glad that I am aware of it now but it seems funny that I have never had issues, never found bugs of any type in any of this wood.  I only started reading about it because instead of barn siding I was going to cut down barn beams and wanted to get info on the beams themselves.  I am sad to say that in all the years fo messing with old wood that I never gave a thought to bugs.

[beenthere]

I think you are right. No need to do anything other than work it up into the product you want.

Forget da bugs.  8)

[thecfarm]

If it ain't broke,why fix it?  ;D

[Dan_Shade]

If you have old wood, you'll know you have powder post when you stick it in the planer