Tree cutting

[rasorbackQ]

You guys make me laugh Those pics the trees are 15' apart at the butt.

Here are some pics of my forest




  

  

  

 

[rasorbackQ]

 I normally do just like the pics hang ups get tied up and pulled down with the atv  Great for a 8-12" tree But when the tree weight is more then the atv winch can pull  is where I am now. Once the woods dry up I will get the tractor and a long rope to get them down

[Ianab]

A real ratchet puller can provide more pull than even a tractor. An extra length of cable, some strops and a couple of snatch blocks and you will be able to rig yourself out of most fixes.

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=17435&catID=

[thenorthman]

Yep a portable winch or come-a-long tied low on a stump or tree has lots of grunt to spare, barring that you could use a snatch block to double your pulling power with the atv, rig the snatch block to the hung tree, tie one end of to something just off your line of pull, tie the other end off to the atv... get 2-1 gearing that way... just have to have a longer rope.

[rasorbackQ]

Remember reading it here somewhere........................ The back cut should be level ??? My back cut comes in at an angle .
Goes out tomorrow to get those last couple hang ups down and milled.

[beenthere]

My back cut comes in at an angle .

A reason why not flat? 

My guess would be because you are new at it, and are not using wedges in the back cut to control the tree.

Often see an angled backcut with newbies cutting down trees. No offense meant by that. I think some feel it helps to direct the fall of the tree, and others do it because they don't have to bend down to make the cut.

If the tree is for firewood, not a great loss. But if for sawing lumber, just means shorter boards out of that butt log on the mill. One reason that the humbolt cut is used for the notch, to not lose length in boards.

[CCC4]

My back cut comes in at an angle .

A reason why not flat? 

My guess would be because you are new at it, and are not using wedges in the back cut to control the tree.
Often see an angled backcut with newbies cutting down trees.

[/quote]

It just takes practice and familiarity with yer saw, such as knowing how to hold yer saw level. It has zero to do with whether or not you choose to use wedges or not. I have seen some ultra crap stumps and wedges were used...it is like it is "OK" to leave a crappy stump as long as you wedged the tree over...  My favorite stump to come across is when they slope the back cut and the face! Now that is stellar! Sometimes you wonder how people live through it! But hey...throw a wedge in it and it is all good!  :

[beenthere]

CCC4

That was a "misinterp" of what I was trying to point out, but I'll let it ride for what it is worth.
I don't view wedges as covering up for any marginal cuts.

;)

[CCC4]

I would like to offer an apology for my snippy reply. I put in a rough one today in this heat... sorry about that Sir

[WDH]

"To wedge or not to wedge?   That is the question."  (From a Shakespearean Woodcutter Play.) 

"To wedge is to show wisdom."  (Old Chinese Proverb.)

[Rocky_Ranger]

Back when I worked for a living I cut right of way trees for log roads.  Back then we built quite nice roads with crushed rock; for those that know what "Purchaser Credit" was, it was back then.  I didn't know what a wedge was until I went to Oregon and worked USFS.  I hung up trees all day - cutting ROW in dense timber that just wouldn't, or couldn't hit the ground.  Learned a bunch felling timber - always had a trusty Cat 518 (cut in the morning and skid in the afternoon) to help with those pesky hang ups.  Nothing like a good set of chokers and a mainline winch.......... 

[Wash. Tinner]

Wedges are cheap insurance for a number of reasons, 1- Tree wont set back on the saw and 2- If you have a hard time reading the tree or want it to go against the way that it naturally wants to go, you can persuade it to go where you want it to go and 3- THEY ARE CHEAP!!!

[Ianab]

All three points are true, and they will help you out of a lot of tight spots. Don't leave home without them.

But sometimes they aren't enough, then heavy machinery, or at least winches and cables are needed. Tight growing trees with interlocking branches are a pain in the butt.  Sometimes it's like a Chinese puzzle working out what order to take things down in. A Chinese puzzle with two ton pieces over your head  :-\

Ian

[Peter Drouin]

I think using a rope on a tractor to pull down a tree will get yourself hurt when the rope breaks.I think you should hire a guy that has a skidder and be done with it and live to tell about it. Just my 2 cents good luck with your trees

[Rocky_Ranger]

The point I was trying to make is you can't put a set of wedges in your back pocket and expect to become a faller.  It takes practice without wedges and with wedges; some trees can and will come back on you if you use the wedges improperly.  I prefer to not use them unless the situation says I should (as should always be the case); sometimes a full winch line and large vehicle is what is called for.  However, as old as I am and some of the practices I have used makes it a miracle I'm still in one piece......  I haven't knocked out power, nor tripped a primary yet - but there is still time  :D

[rasorbackQ]

 Well I can say now 27 tree hung up . Managed to get out and rescue/ recover 3 yesterday. Was a tough morning . Got with in 100 ft of the trees with the tractor. Had to pull 2 of them 30 ' before they were on the ground. and last one was 50' towards the pick up spot before it was on the ground.
Angled back cut ...... thought I seen pics on the web one time but didn't find any ref to it now.

[thenorthman]

Not to be hypercritical, Sloping back cuts are sloppy and dangerous, mostly dangerous, especially when using a wedge.

Most people that use them falsely believe that it will stop a barber chair (vertical and violent split), they don't.  Or they think that the wedge is supposed to push the tree over, causing the stump wood to split and the tree to fall over backwards, usually on the cutter.

If your going to start using wedges make you back cut level or as level as your ability allows... the idea behind a wedge is to "lift" the tree off the stump, using hold/hinge wood as a fulcrum.  With the back cut level the wedge is placed perpendicular to the grain being the strongest compression strength.

Now on to the back patting, ya got three down. good job... now get to work!

once you have a system things will go faster the more times you do it.

Also sometimes when you pull them down like that they can get really hung up... so pulling 30' not such a big deal.  And if it does get hung up on a stump or something STOP rethink the plan, change direction but by all means don't just pull harder, that's how they come over backwards on ya

[enigmaT120]

Thanks for the video on the Humbolt cut.  I didn't know what it was.  It turns out that's what everybody around here does, unless they are using a processor.  I did it for a long time but now I'm aiming for really low stumps (pre-commercial thinning) and I'm just making firewood anyway, so I make the angled cut from above.  If the tree is near my skid road I even use the wedge for firewood. 

[plaindriver]

Next, I cut the wedge out of the front of tree, then stretch the cable till the tree bows a bit. (Note: the cable is longer than the tree is high)

Good illustration of what to do. If you don't have a tractor, then a portable winch anchored to a stump works too.

Only suggestion I have is that you don't pre-load the rope. This puts tension on the tree, and makes it possible to barber chair the thing. A small load isn't an issue, but if you tension it too much it can split the log before you complete the back cut.

I have used pretty much the same method, but I only take out the slack in the rope. Once the back cut is complete then I shut off the saw, get clear and signal my helper to pull. Or walk around a safe path to the winch or tractor and haul it down myself.

Not a big change in technique, but you have more control.



This will save you a few minutes per tree if only 1 in 10 actually need winching.


Ian

Ian,
I used to do the "lazy cable" and tighten it up after the back cut, and basically pull the tree down. But, last time I did this, unbeknownst to me, there was a rotted out section in the inside of the tree, which was close to 30" dia at the stump and over 100' hi (a wht oak). Per the wedge cut, it was supposed to fall towards "12 O'Clock". Well, when the back cut hit the rotted innards, it fell towards about "3:00". The house and back patio are at "3:30 O'Clock!". No damage, luckily, but scary just the same. I felt that if I had a tight cable, it would have fallen more towards the "12:00 O'Clock" goal. Am I wrong?

Remember, I only have about 100 trees under my belt, all in the past 8 mos, so I am rather inexperienced. I really appreciate all the sage advice.


  

  

 

[thenorthman]

Not to be hypercritical...  looks like you cut off all your hold wood on one side.

Probably causing it to fall more with its natural lean then go where the cable was pulling it.  Just a thought.

The rotten center just added to the effect.

[plaindriver]

 

Not to be hypercritical...  looks like you cut off all your hold wood on one side.

Probably causing it to fall more with its natural lean then go where the cable was pulling it.  Just a thought.

The rotten center just added to the effect.

Youre probably correct. I didnt notice the deterioration from the outside, when I started cutting, it felt solid. I had to do the wedge and back cut to coax to fall 'that' way. Im thinkin if I woulda had the cable tight, it might have persuaded the tree to fall 'that' way instead of towards the house. Maybe in retro, I should have just done the wedge with some tension on the cable, then just used the tractor to pull it down. Anyways, I do all this for us, and not for a living. All the trees anywhere near structures have all been successfully felled by self (far more luck than skill Im sure).



 

[Ianab]

Any time the tree is effectively hollow like that you have a problem. The mechanics of the hinge wood don't work properly any more, and you don't have the same control from the hinge, so you may need to modify your plan

If you aren't sure, have a poke around in the notch with a screwdriver after you cut it. Make sure it IS actually solid wood in there. In that case, where the decay is coming from the wound in the tree, you might have gotten a better result with a deeper notch? Or abandon that notch, and cut another one 3 ft further up where there is more solid wood? Trim the tall stump off later.

It also looks like you trimmed one side of the hinge a bit thin, so it probably broke off early, and let the tree twist on the way down?

There is also the option of rigging more than one rope. A fixed one, in this case at 9 o'clock, this stays fixed as the tree falls, and stops it going with it's natural lean if the hinge doesn't hold. The 12 o'clock rope pulls the tree down.

Pre-loading the rope might have helped, but without that hinge wood for control it could still go pear shaped once the tree moved enough to take the tension out of the cable.

But a rotted stump is always a hazard tree, you can't rely on it to behave as it should, and need to take extra precautions. Without the rot the plan would probably have worked fine, even if the hinge wasn't perfect. But with the middle 1/2 of the hinge compromised by rot, and one end cut too thin, there is only 1/4 of the hinge trying to control the fall, and the weight of the tree can overcome that. After that, gravity is the main player.

Ian

[Jemclimber]

With that size tree, the outer few live inches should have been plenty to steer the tree down if you hadn't cut through the hinge as thenorthman had suggested.  Be very careful not to bypass your scarf/wedge cut to leave some hinge wood even if it makes pulling on the rope a little more difficult to get it started.   Be safe.

[BaldBob]

There is enough swell in the butt of that tree to give a strong indication of rot even before you put a saw in it. Also the rot was apparent in your face cut. Given that info and the fact that buildings are at risk, your safer alternative would have been to go above the butt swell to make your felling cuts, and take the high stump down later.

[Peter Drouin]

There is enough swell in the butt of that tree to give a strong indication of rot even before you put a saw in it. Also the rot was apparent in your face cut. Given that info and the fact that buildings are at risk, your safer alternative would have been to go above the butt swell to make your felling cuts, and take the high stump down later.