Logger damage to residual stand

[Tom_Averwater]

We are getting our 56 acres of woods logged because of the EAB and most of the Yellow Poplar because it is stressed due to the dry conditions of the last 5-6 years.  Taking out 1200 trees ranging from 14" to 36" . I know that is alot of trees but we are " backed into a corner " , cut them or lose them .The logger has bought the trees . We had numerous roads thoughout the woods . The loggers are using 2 cable skidders and a grapple skidder to finish the drag as some of the drags are 3000' .We have been using a consulting forester to market and run the job .
   I went back into the woods on day 2 and I see one of the cutters had dropped about 10 big Poplars on top of each other across the trail with the butts facing away from the trail . I asked the cutter how he was going to get those logs out without destroying all of the young Maples he hadn't destroyed already and he said " I'm doing the best I can " . This cutter had no safety protection on , chaps , hard hat or hearing protection .
   A lot of the trees are tall , 3 - 16' logs plus the top wood , making  some logs 60' -70' long . At what point is it necessary to cut a log into 2 pieces so the leftover trees are not tore up or knocked over when the tree is skidded out ?
   Several places along the trails which are now 12' - 16' wide , are nice trees tore up because the forked tops were not were not Trimmed up . My forester says he will mark those for removal , but most are pulp wood size and I have been told standing pulp is only $2.00-$3.00 a ton . That makes a 10" Cherry worth only about 75 cents .
   In making a decision on what logger to use we got 5 bids .this logger's bid was twice as much as other bids, even beating out the paper mill he sells pulp to . He came with with a good recommendation from the forester . We are located just east of Cincinnati , Ohio .
This is just my rant . I thought every thing was going to go smoothly , but not .

[jd540b]

That's the trouble with the bidding process.  Who pays the most is the same as who will work for the least and time is money....should have addressed residual damage in contract.  "You scar it, you buy it at 3x stump age."  Sounds pretty unprofessional to me.

[ga jones]

Damage Should have been addressed in your foresters perspectus.

[treeslayer2003]

thats alot of timber per acre, it would be next to impossible to have no damage. it should be minimized as best it can be. i would find a lay most it will go in and plan roads accordingly, may not be your roads.
the big timber will tear up what ever it hits, no way around that, all one can do is minimize and trade junk damage to keep young good trees.

[Tom_Averwater]

He is going to run out of time because this is a dry weather job , and he knew it when he took it . They were supposed to start in July . Now they are in a rush to get the wood out . I have another 45,000 feet of large Red and White Oak marked  to sell if this sale goes ok , but I doubt if it will happen . I've seen these trees grow for the las 55 years and it really  hurts to see the woods tore up like this .

[thenorthman]

As mentioned before, the forester should have addressed most of these issues in the contract.

That being said some damage is bound to happen. Most loggers do their best to avoid it but trees have a mind of their own at times.

Also, during the actual logging is when things look the worst, clean up usually doesn't get done until the end, or sorta half heartedly as ya go along. Granted dude running around without at least a hat on is kinda stupid and a good way to get killed.

Best thing to do is have a chat with the boss logger and mention your concerns, its your land and they should be respecting it, even if they are under the gun as far as weather is concerned.

[Autocar]

Like the other guys say it's impossible to cut big trees and not damage others on the way down especially when your cutting big timber. The logging crew that is cutting your job are they Master Loggers though the Ohio Forestry Association ? Safety equipment should be used accidents happen, being a professional it surprize's me that the consultant allows it.

[OneWithWood]

Sounds like your logger is also selling firewood.  Why else would they not have topped the tree before the fork?
If your contract contained language concerning residual damage I would have a long talk with the forester.  The fact that the faller does not employ any PPE tells me he does not know what he is doing and probably does not understand directional falling to the extent he should.

[chester_tree _farmah]

If the r taking almost the whole tree they probably are going to chip the tops. Polar pulp can be 3-4 " tops but they don't want forks.

[BargeMonkey]

 We have the same trouble around here, the mills employ larger loggers to cut, and its all a time is money game. I just pulled out of a "bidded" woodlot today, which I had a lower bid but a far better reputation than the next 2 high bidders. The landowner was extremely happy, did the extra dozer work, made sure everything was cleaned out of the skid trails, took down the hangars from a blow down, you get the idea. Now your left with a torn up woodlot, scarred up skid roads and a logger who evidently couldnt care much about his insurance premiums because none of our guys work without PPE.

[Woodboogah]

Do you have anything in your contract about residual damage?  Bigger trees with big crowns, especially oaks, will wipe out some some stuff on the way down.  That is hard to get around.  Sounds like the chopper is laying wood down backwards, you already know this though from what you have said.  Also, taking trees out with the tops still on, are they chipping anything?  I am sorry to say that is happens around here all to often.  Guys come in cut as much as they can get out leave a mess and see you later.  Getting paid the most for stumpage is not always what is best especially if you like your woodlot.  I hope you make out ok and it all works out.

[WDH]

I would shut the job down and have a meeting with the forester and logger immediately.  It is the forester's job to see that the job is done according to BMP's and established standards. 

[jwilly3879]

A lot of cutters don't take the time to cut the trees in the lay, just cut the big one, smash the others and get it out. Production often takes a backseat to quality. It is something I hate to see and is what we take the time to avoid. Fortunately we work with a forester who understands the way we work.

[Tom_Averwater]

I spent 6 hours in the woods today with the forester. We missed the logger / owner . He came in with a empty truck and left real quick with a full one . His truck loader / slasher operator knew we wanted to talk with him . We talked to both cutters , and I asked them about using wedges to steer the trees better . On cutter said he had them in the skidded but didn't use them because the axe/hammer hurt his hands .they use their green wedge instead ,Timberjack. I walked one of the skid trails that they decided to locate themselves and in one spot they ruined every leftover tree in a 100'x100 ' area because they decided to go a different way .
We have many roads throughout our woods the forester and i even made a gps map of them , Which they were given ,but they have hardly used any of them .The forester and I laid out some other trails and took the skidder operators through them by using trees to be cut as rub trees .
  We were watching about 8 poplars get cut on a hillside and they dropped every one across the boundary creek that they were told to be carefully about the neighbors property . This creek is about 20' wide in this area . I turned to the forester and said " who is going to clean that up " ? He said they will have to . Ha ,we will see . $ 1000.00 deposite ain't going to go very far .
I'm getting tired of typing . Goodnight . Thanks for listening .

[thenorthman]

I hate to say it, but it sounds like you may have to shut them down before anymore damage is done. At least have a meeting with the boss, if he's avoiding you and the forester....  >:( Then he probably already knows he messed up), the right thing for him to do is at least have the meeting and take his lashing before correcting what he can or risk losing the job altogether.

Have the forester arrange a formal meeting, tomorrow or the next day if possible, lay down the law, if they avoid you, shut em down, until a meeting can be arranged.

Best of luck to ya on this one.

[OntarioAl]

Tom_Averwater
Like thenorthman says "shut him down" he is running totally out of control and you will be holding the bag.
Up here in Ontario if the logging contractor fails to provide workers compensation coverage the Compensation Board holds the land owner liable in event of a lost time injury and heaven forbid a fatality occurs.
From your description of skill level of the fellers and their lack of PPE there is an accident waiting to happen.
The Ministry of Labour inspectors would shut the job down and fine the fellers and their employer.
The real slick "crooks" up here would always offer exorbitant stumpage put some cash up front run wild, maybe tender a little  more cash saying that there was not as much wood as they thought or just plain disappear.
My take on the matter.
Al
Professional Forester in Ontario

[Southside]

You own the land, block the road with a vehicle and a big note saying "You need to call me, do not enter" or something to that effect if you believe he is avoiding you.  The issue of the neighbors land needs to be addressed before any more felling takes place around there, and in my opinion any damage over the line needs to be repaired immediately since he has no right to harvest on that land. 

[barbender]

Shut 'em down. The forester (why are you paying him?) should have shut them down already, and I question his professionalism if he is recommending an outfit that doesn't even require their fallers to wear safety gear. I'd be really surprised if this logger has the proper comp and liability insurances, going by the details you've given.

[RunningRoot]

I live 15 minutes from Batavia and I actually believe I know who is logging your property... I.M. If you have any questions I may be able to help with.. Sorry to hear about your troubles..

[treeslayer2003]

falling timber across the boundry is a no no.........falling timber into a creek is a big no no at least here it is.
sorry to hear this, please don't assume all loggers are this way.

[MJD]

The way it sounds, the forester might be in the loggers back pocket $$$.

[David-L]

Ask the forester to shut the job down pronto, sounds like BMP's are not being followed which in turn could lead to serious implications for the man who has the timber Harvesters licence as well as the forester if the job can't continue to follow these BMP practices and the cutting plan . In Mass dumping trees over a boundary , plus a brook would be a serious no, no. The service forester would really be, well bull cheese if he saw that. Good luck and hope you get this resolved quickly.

                                                     David l

[Corley5]

Shut them down before it gets any worse.

[OneWithWood]

Did you receive payment up front or is it pay as cut or settle after on shares?
If you did not receive payment up front you have little leverage.  Sure you can shut them down and deny access but if they owe you money you may be hard pressed to get it.  On the other hand if you have not been paid the bid price you may have little assurance of getting a fair deal anyway.
You mentioned a $1000 deposit.  Hopefully that is $1000 above the bid and you already have been paid for the trees marked.
Have you already paid the forester?  If not I would let him know in no uncertain terms that his payment is dependent on his getting the logger lined out.  Normally that is part of the foresters contract - he is responsible for supervising the harvest.  Or at least that is how my contracts with consulting foresters read.  I was paid in full before the first tree was cut and the forester was paid by me after the site was closed out to my satisfaction.

[Gary_C]

I've seen this type of work done on too many jobs where the landowner is dealing directly with a logger, but never when a forester was on the job. It's time to get a grip on the forester and make him do his job.

I'm also sorry to say you are going to have trouble getting paid fairly for what he is taking from your woods. Those high bid prices are always a red flag to trouble.