frick 00 sawmill

[jdw]

I've got a few questions about running a circle sawmill. First off I have run a band mill for a few years and made pretty good money with it. But I've always had a good job in the steel industry. But for the last year I've worked every weekend and stuck on the 3-11 shift I feel like I'm missing my kids growing up so it's time to make a change. I've found a frick 00 mill in running condition with a diesel power unit for a good price. I guess my question would be how much production could I get out of the mill in a day and where do I sell the large quantities of wood I cut? Also I'm in northeastern kentucky is there anyone close to me that knows how to set one of these mills up?

[beenthere]

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

A place to start is prowling around in the archives of this forum using the search tool, and reading posts by members such as Ron Wenrich and Jeff, both of whom have a lot of past experience running circular mills. There are others also.
Marketing your lumber will likely involve getting some lumber grading learning/experience. A better idea of this will come by reading up on posts made on this Forum over the years.
And asking questions will bring on helpful information as you proceed.
Other names off the top of my head, are SPD748 who put a mill together with help from his late Dad, and another is lyle niemi who has a circular mill running up near Edmonton, CA.  Couple others I will think of and edit this post.
It should be a great adventure for you. Let the fun begin.

[Lumber Grader]

You are now talking about going into a different world, in which I was a part of for many years.

That is the world of production sawmilling, which lately has become tougher lately with markets tightening up, lumber prices dropping and many mills now being squeezed with prices going down and the bright spot being the price of crossties and switchties.

Do you know how to grade hardwood lumber?  Most of the successful production sawmill owners I have known over the years had really good hardwood lumber inspectors (Hardwood lumber inspectors literally COUNT YOUR MONEY!!!)  and knew  how to buy logs right and competition for logs can sometimes be a make of break factor.

It can take a lot of capital and what if some of your lumber buyers decide to wait 60-90 days to pay you?

Do you plan to move all your lumber green, or could you afford to sticker lumber and hold it if the markets forced you to do so. That can take a lot of extra capital.

Before you quit your job, you need to visit some mills that are doing what you want to do, and talk with them my friend, as there is money to be made in production sawmilling and I will assure you there can be a lot of money lost.

It can take A LOT of  capital to make it in a production sawmill and remember your loggers will want their payment on logs every week.

I leased a small Frick mill once with a good honest Mennonite running it for me and I kept it going 2-3 years and I broke even, because I had a full time job and I did not pay myself a salary, which in reality means I lost a lot of money and it was a hobby.

If hobbies become full-time, then it is not a hobby, but your full-time income, with no more steel mill money to back you up.

My biggest factor in not making a real profit at my mill,  was that my lumber buyers were grading my lumber and guess who's favor they were grading in and I got cheated on the grade, as I did not have the time to grade the lumber, as I had a great paying full time job. Yes I knew how to grade hardwood lumber, but my full time job did not allow me the time to grade my own lumber most of the time.

I guess bottom line is you have to feed your family and to quit your job and do what you are talking about could possibly be very risky financially, so make sure if you take the plunge that your wife is in full agreement with you.

If you want to PM me with your phone, I would be happy to discuss one evening.

Best wishes to you my friend and I hope all your sawmill dreams come true!!!

[Ron Wenrich]

Production depends on several factors.  The input factor is log length, diameter and species.  You can always saw pine and tulip poplar faster than hickory or oak.  One mill I worked at was getting 20 Mbf per day with a Frick hand mill cutting long tulip poplar and heavy 16/4 lumber.   Small logs will cut your production really fast.  When I was cutting on a hand mill I was getting about 4-5 Mbf cutting second cut oak.

Next factor is output.  Cutting ties will add up a lot quicker than cutting logs all the way through.  The art of sawing is knowing when to stop and move on to the next side or log.  You have to learn how to read a log.  Your output will depend on your markets.  You should have a tie market, a pallet market, and a couple of grade markets.  We sold green and had several good wholesalers that we dealt with for a good number of years.  The quality of your lumber will sell it.  Poorly produced lumber will reduce the number of potential markets.  I never had problems with my grade markets, as I did checks on the grade periodically to see how they were doing.  We knew who the lumber thieves were and didn't do business with them.  I always attracted buyers during down years.  My quality brought them in when other mills went out of business, and I could hold that customer. 

For a profitable business, you will have to figure out what to do with your waste material.   Quite often, that's where your profits are at.  If you can't get rid of sawdust, that ends up being a cost instead of an income.   We delivered sawdust to farmers, and had year round markets.  We chipped our slabs and delivered.  We sold mulch to wholesalers.  Wholesalers are less money, but you don't have to double grind and tend to a cyclical customer base.  When you figure up how much money was made in just the waste, we turned a good dollar in the course of a week.

Your production also depends on your back up equipment.   Don't even think about sawing without an edger.  You'll also need someone to run it.  At a minimum, you'll need dead rolls to push out product.  A green chain makes things easier, and reduces manpower.  You should have at least 1 man stacking lumber, and moving things around.  You will also need some sort of loader to move logs and lumber.  Make sure it is more than a toy and has lifting capabilities.  A debarker is nice, as it increases production by allowing you to stay sharp longer.  It also give you another byproduct.  It also gives you a different chip quality.  But, you don't need it to start.  Chippers get rid of slabwood.  You can figure you'll get about 1½-2 tons of slabs per Mbf of production.  Depends on product sawn and log size.  If you don't have a chipper, what are you doing with your slabs?

But, the thing you really need is a good log source.  Without that, all the equipment and markets won't matter.  Most mills I worked with bought standing timber and either contract cut it or had their own logging crews.  That stabilized log sources, and offered income stream in veneer and firewood.  Depending solely on gatewood means that you better have solid producers that bring you the amount of wood you need at the quality and price so you can make a profit.  You also have to learn how to grade logs, unless you're dealing in only pallet quality material.

A lot to consider.  Before you invest money, I would suggest you invest some time.  You need to develop a business plan.  Get all that market information together.  Figure realistic cost numbers for logs and value numbers for lumber.  Your margin is the difference between the two.  The lower your production costs, the higher the profit. 

This is how the commercial markets run.  If you think you want to stay away from that and do custom sawing or build pallets, and that requires a different business plan.  I had one client that started by selling firewood, then went to having a sawmill and building pallets, then ended up building windows and doors.  He sold very little in the commercial markets.  Very successful and only ran the mill a couple days per month in a father/son operation.  I had another client that had a good marketing plan with urban lumber.  Sometimes you have to color outside the lines.  Find your niche.  But, the 2 things you need to succeed is a sharp saw and a sharp pencil.

[Verticaltrx]

If you already have a band mill that's all you need to make a living (and you don't need a large one either.) Don't go looking to produce huge volumes of lumber and sell it at wholesale prices, you need to look into more specialty items and/or value added. I'm not sure if you are a woodworker or carpenter (or would like to become either) but this is where milling your own lumber really can pay. I'm a contractor and milling my own lumber for outdoor construction projects has increased my revenue by a large margin. Instead of just taking home the check for the labor, now I'm taking home the check for the materials too. Another way to look at it, by the time I'm taking a piece of wood from standing tree to finished building, I'm earning $2.00/bf or more for green, rough sawn pine...value added.

On the woodworking side you could build a couple inexpensive solar kilns and sell specialty woods, turning blanks, slabs, hardwood flooring and so on, the possibilities are endless. If you could setup or have a wood shop and build small furniture, etc, then your prices per bf could skyrocket, you can make a living only sawing a small volume of lumber this way. You need to be aiming for selling at $1.00/$2.00/$4.00/$10.00 per BF and up.

[bandmiller2]

JDW, the guys especially Ron have covered it well. Your biggest problem will probably be manpower, a circular mill to produce needs hands or some real fancy automated material handling. If you can buy the mill right, have the location, and the logs try it but I would keep your day/night job at least for a wile. Frank C.

[jdw]

Do these wholesalers buy year round? Or is there a slow down in the winter months?

8)

[Ron Wenrich]

We sold year round.  Wholesalers buy year round.  We had several outlets we went to.  We had a couple of tie outlets and a couple of pallet outlets for our low grade.  You will find that when times get tough, they'll tighten up on specs.  We also had a few lean times where we had to stockpile some pallet stock.  It eventually sold.  But, I kept my pallet stock a little heavy so there would be better demand.  Pallet builders hate stock that is undersized by just a little bit.  They'll reject pieces.  Add 1/8" and everyone is happy.

For grade material, we sold quite a bit to a company that made panels.  Their grade was excellent and bought year round.  I think their capacity was 25MMbf.  The recession took them out, and another company was there to fill the gap.  We also cut lumber for the casket industry.  They used 7' and 8' lumber.  It needed a fairly clean face, and could have a 2 Com or lower back.  They paid nearly 1 Com price.  We put a lot of lower grade material into that product.  It's a niche market.  We also had a company that built butcher block counter tops that bought our ash, hard maple and birch in 8/4.  They bought 2 Com and better.  We also sold quite a bit to other sawmills that had kilns.  We weren't in the kiln drying business.

There is a business cycle in the mill operations.  When markets fall, those with heavy debt loads or poor efficiency will be weeded out.  Those markets are often hard to crack.  The client I spent the most time with had no debt and I kept his efficiency up.   Debt is OK if you can manage it, just be careful.

After the market clears out the weak, there will be a spell where production can't meet demand, and they will buy just about anything that falls off a saw.  You can make a lot of money in those markets.  After that, there will be a period where markets work well.  There will be some fluctuation, but nothing you can't live with.  That's where you build up your operations.  Those periods often last for years.

[Lumber Grader]

Ron your comments were absolutely fantastic and extremely well written. Lot's of great advice and you could not have said it better.  I spent many years in production saw-milling and I say "Amen Brother",  to your comments.  I might have seemed a little harsh in my comments, but the gentleman said he has children and a good paying job and children always like to eat, if you mill if very profitable or if it is not!!! I certainly hope it works out well for him, whatever path he chooses!!!

[jdw]

Let's just say I own the mill. And have 1200 a month in personal bills + what I pay my help. So what is the average income one can make from the mill per month I guess is a better way to put it? ;D

[red]

Log Supply Log Supply and Log Supply!  !  !

[Magicman]

I have no circle experience so I can only Welcome you to the Forestry Forum, jdw.

[beenthere]

Log Supply Log Supply and Log Supply!  !  !

Buyers Buyers Buyers 

Get both lined up and go to sawin.... but would guestimate a year would go by quickly to get it to click.

Do you have about 5 hours a morning to work the mill, get logs are in your yard, and lumber ready to sell to buyers such that job quitting can happen?  Seems too dangerous to encourage you to rely on any income before everything is settled in with the mill.. and you experience happy buyers and log suppliers.

Maybe others can be more encouraging.. and I'm only an observer, not having done it.

[Ron Wenrich]

Average income is dependent on a lot of variables, and that's why you need to do some homework on your markets.  You will need to know what your help is going to cost you.  That would include the various insurances you need.  You'll need to know how much fuel costs, and how much you'll spend on saw maintenance.  You'll have to figure in any fixed costs and pro-rate that to a monthly basis.  You also want to add in your paycheck, since no one works for free for very long.  This will bring all your manufacturing costs together.   It'll be a lump sum.

You'll also have to know the difference between your average log costs are, and what your average selling prices are.  That is where your operating costs come in.  For many mills, that average is about $200/Mbf.  It will vary with log quality and lumber yields.  Don't forget to add your waste product prices into your lumber prices.  To come up with a realistic figure, then divide by the $200 and you'll get an idea of how much you need to produce to break even.  You want to either drive your costs below $200 or increase production.  The higher the production, the lower the unit cost.

I would add that I would check many types of mills before I would settle on a hand mill.  There are a lot of higher production mills out there for just a little more.  I ran a Jackson Lumber Harvester portable automatic mill.  I had it up and running in a day and we made it stationary.   Production was about twice as much as a hand mill.   Additional labor was 1 mill hand.  Most of the parts could be gotten local.  Original investment is about double, but you're still under the cost of a new band mill.

[jdw]

I guess I need to anwser a few questions here. Yes I have land to set the mill on and turn into a yard. I can get the logs off of 2 or 3 loggers I know so that shouldn't be an issue. Now getting a good deal on said logs that might be a challege I do plan on keeping my job till I get money rolling in though just hope it don't take to long. The problem I'm having is lots of people say go to sawmills and talk to people well that's the problem I live in the country but not one circle mill can I think of they use to be everywhere but the old timers are all gone and we'll let's be honest ain't to many people wonna work that hard anymore. So information is kinda hard to get around here . My little band mill I couldn't keep up with just farmers wanting wood. All the fancy stuff in life don't really appeal to me don't wonna get rich just want enuff to get by and time to spend with my kids.

[Lumber Grader]

Hi JDW,

Have you considered putting in a horizontal thin-kerf band re-saw behind you band mill?

I know Cook's makes one, Brewco also, but the price is multiple x the price of the Cooks, Baker makes one and I am not sure if Woodmizer makes a horizontal resaw for grade sawing, but I am guessing they do, just not sure.

So much time is wasted loading and turning logs and a re-saw can be amazingly profitable in the right situation?

Just a thought and I hope this idea might help you.

Lumber Grader

[jdw]

No I haven't. I'm trying to get going on my own money without getting a loan. So I'm limited on what I can do now I've found the mill it's set up and running now and a edger that I can pay cash for. But if things work out who knows what I might add later.

[Ron Wenrich]

A lot depends on how deep your pockets are.  At a minimum, you'll need some sort of loader, a mill, and a power unit.  Cheap loaders usually need mechanical work.  You may want to lease at the outset.  I would also suggest you'll need some sort of building to keep things in.  Pole buildings are cheap to build, and keeps you sawing in all sorts of weather.  There are lots of good deals on mills, but you may have to travel to remove them and there is a cost for shipping.

You may find some local mills that are in need of repair.  That can be more expensive than finding a running mill.  Especially if you're looking at old mills that need new wood.  Sweat equity does have a cost associated with it.  Figure out what you can afford, and find out what is currently available. 

You should also focus on a market that you can afford.  You'll have to buy logs.  The cheapest logs are low quality.  The product output are ties and pallet stock, with some that will go for flooring.  You mentioned farmers, so I would look at them for some custom work and as a market for sawdust.  Their work tends to be more cyclical. 

The tie market is a fairly stable one, as long as you produce a quality tie.  No rot, limited shake, and limited wane.  They take mixed species.  Our buyer would come into the lot, inspect the ties, and cut a check on the spot.  That makes for good cash flow.  You'll need about 200 for a trailerload.   Ties take a long 8' log, unless you can cut some switch ties. 

Pallet stock will be where you go with the material that won't make ties.  The value is lower, and these guys take longer to pay.  That may put a crimp on cash flow.  Pallet boards are trimmed to 4" or 6" width.  You may want to consider building custom pallets as a sideline.  They will be the ones that the pallet plants won't produce.  They tend to be heavier and require custom parts.  Perfect for a small mill.

A wholesaler may help in the better quality wood that are in the sidecuts.  Find one to work with that will take small lots.  That keeps fresh stuff in his yard and out of yours.  They generally need 1 Mbf of a species to work with.  They usually pay on 30 day cycles.  Maybe a larger mill will buy from you. 

I would contract out all trucking, unless you want to get in the trucking business.  Small delivery is OK, but you want to be looking at trailer loads.  You may have to get to a point of providing the trailer.  Depends how your local haulers are set up. 

You also have to figure out what you're going to do with the slabs.  Your options are to sell as firewood, chip, or produce hog material.  Hog material can be used as bedding or as mulch.  Firewood is a cyclical market, low value, and often hard to sell.  You may want to start with firewood, but that won't last as production expands.

There's a possible blueprint for a mill operation.  It's not the only one.  Now, you need to find market values to see what's feasible for your situation. 

[Verticaltrx]

Sounds like you really want to setup a circle mill and sell large volumes of cheap lumber, so my advice may be falling on deaf ears, but...

I really think you could take the mill you already have, and make a good living with it. It will take some creativity, some good marketing/advertising/branding, but you will make far more selling some top quality hardwood to woodworkers, etc than you will selling fence boards to farmers. The production side of the equation is only a small part of running a business. Marketing, networking, etc aren't nearly as much fun as sawing logs, but that's what separates the successful business from those that just get by (and that's true for any industry).

I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, because I'm not, but I often produce $500 profit per day with my very small, 6.5hp 21" cut bandsaw. This is cutting EWP and using the lumber to build sheds, barns, etc. Take that same lumber, dry it in a solar kiln and make some simple, rustic furniture and you could make double that. The reason I can do that is because I'm controlling the product from the tree all the way to the finished product and keeping my expenses low. Cut out the middleman and keep all the profit for yourself.

My advice to you, setup your bandsaw mill in an efficient manner, build a couple inexpensive solar kilns, and spend the rest of your time building the business. You really only need to saw about 1-2 days per week to produce enough to make a good profit on if you sell it right.

[4x4American]

Do anyone know where's a good place to send circle blades for hammering/fixing in the NE?

[beenthere]

Sponsor Menominee Saw in the left column. They support the FF.

[4x4American]

Good deal, thanks

[4x4American]

If they put the sponsers small, and out of the way, I would notice it.  Since they're big and right in my face, I don't even see them!  How I always have been.  Taking tests in school, there'd be a big red ****IMPORTANT - READ THIS**** at the top and I'd zoom right past...not even seeing it :D

[ddcuning]

jdw, welcome to the forum!

I can't weigh in on the business side but if I was going to start with a Frick mill again, I would not choose the 00 due to lack of parts available. A lot of the parts that I have replaced on mine have had to be custom made at machine shops. If I were doing this over again, I would start with an 01. There are lots of off the shelf parts available for the 01 and not so much on the 00.

Dave C

[jdw]

How's the production on the 00?