homemade bandsaw mill, help

[Ox]

gww - By golly, we could be brothers.  We sound exactly alike!  However, I've found that stubborness and patience will take care of most trials and tribulations.  If we just keep pecking away at something it'll come 'round eventually.  You'll get your mill just where you want it sooner or later.  Just don't give up on it and it'll all come out in the wash, right?

[gww]

ox

Just don't give up on it and it'll all come out in the wash, right?

That is the hope.  In the end, I ruined a chain on the chainsaw trying to cut slabs and then filing to hard and taking out the temper of the metal.  How bad could this be?  By the way ox, thanks for the supportive post through all this.
gww

[fishpharmer]

gww, it was many years and only after I joined FF that I was able to successfully complete my homebuilt mill.  Building your own mill makes you appreciate all the engineering that goes into a factory mill such as a Woodmizer.  Bandmills are rather complex for what seems so simple. 

[Ox]

gww - You're very welcome!  Us poor old boys need to stick together!  ;)  I don't know about taking the temper out of chainsaw chain teeth.  I've filed down so far that they were just little triangles...
fishpharmer - I totally agree.  You said it perfectly.

[gww]

Fishpharmer and ox
I typed a big responce earler today and when I hit post it just dissapeared and then I couldn't even get on the site.  I was going to go through what I did today and explain how to ruin a chainsaw blade but now I just don't have the heart.  I worked on the mill all day.  Some went ok but when I went to try it the tension portion was still flexing so now I have to beef up the four bolt adjustment plate and hope that is the issue.  When I was done the blade seemed paralel to the track but one side was 1/16th of an inch higher then the other side.  I am going to someday try a cut before trying to do better on that.  I don't like it but over a 20 inch span it may not even show up in a 10 inch wide board.

I hope it is the four bolt plates that are now flexing cause I don't know what to do from here if it isn't.  I beefed up the tension slider that I though was most of my problim but when I put the blade under power it walked to the front of the tensioning tire also the tire with the plate.   The plate with the four bolts is all bent to heck from stress so surely that is it.  I did have it tensioned to just crunching the tires.  I could back of a bit of tension but if I can get it to hold at the high tension I will feal better.  I did cut the welds on the drive wheel and drive a couple of pieces of metal in to change the position and it seemed to be paralel better then it was.  I did not make a clamp to a strait edge for the blade, I tensioned it, put a 2 foot level on the blade and measured to a strait edge on the track in front and behind the blade.  Maby a little more rickity but I checked about a hundred times and believe I have it paralel to the track. 

None of it matters  If I can't get the flexing out of the tension bar which I beefed up. 
Thanks
gww

I beat the system this time, I copied my responce and just pasted it when it dissapeared again when I tried to post.  I do wish this site had auto save so you didn't lose your whole post every time tou tryied to post and had connection problims.

[fishpharmer]

gww, I commend you for your persistence in the mill build.  Certainly sounds like your on the right track.  The flexing is okay if its consistent as long as you can adjust for the movement.  As you mill more often, you will learn all the "secret codes" to its operation.  One of which maybe compensating the tracking adjustment for the known flex.   I wouldn't worry about the 1/16 off from one side to the other.  It will throw off your cant a little so that its not absolutely square.  You could shim under the cant to even it out.

Keep up the good work.
Fish

[gww]

Fishpharmer
The flex was consistant before I beefed up the slide bar.  Now the flex is when I put power to the drive wheel.  I will eventually take pictures so you all can laugh at me.  I made one part as strong as I could think to do but I think it stressed anouther part even worse.  I am pretty sure that I am on the right item as the band was only moving forward on the tension wheel not the drive wheel. 

I hate the next change cause the change today means I can no longer take the slide bar compleetly out due to welds.  So I will have to add where I can on part of it while on the michine.  I also have to remove the tension nuts and then put them back.  I do see some of the reasons that I thought some of the other mill builds had what I thought was wasted metal.  Some of it is to keep things seperate so you can work on one thing at a time.

On a differrent note, I one time thought of raising fish and your name has me curious to what it means.
You guys really do help my morale.
thanks
gww

[Ox]

Oh, the frustration of spending time typing just to lose it all.  THAT sucks.  Constantly working on and improving something that will help you in life, like your mill, doesn't suck!  ;D Pretty much ditto to everything fishpharmer wrote.  He seems to be able to put his thoughts down alot better than I can.  Thankful for that.  And yes, gww, there seems to be alot of extra steel on some mills but you're starting to know why now.  Something that may be too late for you now is the idea of bolting things on the mill instead of welding.  Weld angle iron or flat steel on the ends of things with say a 1/2" hole drilled in it and tap a hole behind it for say a 3/8" bolt.  It allows for solid mounting and adjustments as well.  On my mill there's some holes that are drilled 3/4" with a 3/8" bolt through it with stacked washers for clamping.  They're for the blade guides.  It's necessary, at least on this mill.  It's a pain to get adjusted right but when it's there, it ain't movin'.  I drool over the Cook's replacement guides with all the adjustments right there.  Maybe someday.  And yeah, I'm wondering what happened to your chainsaw.  Maybe next time when you get the energy to type like crazy again you'll tell us the story!  Keep at your mill, bub - you'll get her.  Everything you try will either be worse or better so through the process of elimination it'll come round.  And nobody will laugh at it so don't hesitate to post pics.  You can post pics, alot of us can't so who's laughing at who, ya know? ;)

[gww]

I can't believe I just lost another replie and for got to copy before hitting post.  This is two days in a row for bad internet or a virous.  Ox I typed a lot but now you have to wait again for the chain story.  This is getting old
gww

[Ox]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that sucks SO much.  I feel your frustration clear up here. :(  A tip if you don't already know - look up SuperAntiSpyware free download.  It's an anti-virus/anti-spyware program and it works great!.  It's what the main computer store in my area uses to clean up infected systems.  And yes, they use the free version.  It has updates and everything with it.  It's all you need.  It saved every computer I pointed it at.  You'll be amazed at how many things it finds that aren't supposed to be there.  Jeez, it sounds like I'm a salesman for a free download...  :  But it won't help with dodgy internet, unfortunately. :-\

[gww]

Ox
I know this sounds crazy but I run my computer with no anti virus and windows update turned off.  I have been doing this forever.  Nothing is free however, about twice I have had to reload the original factory disk which wipes out all the new stuff.  No banking on line for me.

I still don't have the issues of my mon and brother (knock on wood).  I don't keep important things that I am afraid of losing on a computer.

I have hughes net and I am not impressed and it is getting worse. 

I am sorry about the missed stories I typed for you and the thanks and pleasure I get from reading your post.  I just don't have it in me right now to redo it.

I do wish this site had autosave cause then I wouldn't lose everything.
Thanks for all your support.
gww

[Magicman]

I have hughes net and I am not impressed and it is getting worse.

It is bad to have to wait for a cloudless sky to have reliable service.   :-\

[Ox]

That's too bad about the internet issues.  And from what you're saying about the updates and such on your computer it's a good thing you don't bank online!  I remember you saying awhile ago you have a little trouble typing and such so if you don't feel like any stories and such I completely understand.
MagicMan - your last post sounds like you're talking from experience?  I've looked into the satellite internet but I'm always turned off by the fact that you're limited to a certain amount of GB or whatever and I have no idea how much my family and I go through in a month.  I'd hate to hit the limit and get socked with a big bill for over using whatever it is.

With internet, you gotta do what you gotta do!  I've learned so much from the web that I can't believe it myself sometimes.

[Andre]

I do wish this site had autosave cause then I wouldn't lose everything.
Thanks for all your support.
gww

You could type up your message using word, wordpad or even just notepad, save to your hard drive and when all is ready copy and paste to the FF message editor.

[gww]

magicman and ox
Thanks
andre
I just tried to answer kbetz post on his build and I copied before I hit post.  It is now on my computer and all I have do is paste.  Then I post and couldn't even get the site to come back up.  Some funny things happend when I first got huhges net then things kinda calmed down.  I had a router go out and I think their equiptment must be hard on routers cause it is acting funny again.  I do not like the company and when my two years is up I will try fidelity.  My only two choices where I live.

I guess the gist of this post is even auto save wouldn't have saved me cause I still have the responce on my computer.  Lets see if this post goes through
gww

[Ox]

Andre - that's a good suggestion.  It's a little bit of a pain but at least gww won't lose massive amounts of time typing just to lose it all.  This way what is typed can remain until the post will finally go through.  Good idea!  Keeping stress and frustration down is the secret to happiness in my opinion.

[gww]

Ok,  I put the batteries for the camera on charge.  I cut a very small amount of wood today.  It was only about 4 inches wide.  I took some bark off the wider section first but due to the bark it was hard to tell exactly what was going on but it looked ok.

I am cutting with out the guides on.  I never did get the flexing out of the machine when I put power to the drive wheel.  So I just loosened the tention till the blade would track just a bit forward on the tension wheel.  I also put my 5th new blade on.

It cut strait and at the end of the cut the blade did not raise or drop.  With out raising the head I could drag the mill back to the start and the blade would ride the cut perfectly.  I am cautiously optimistic though I have been here before.  a 4 inch cut is not much of a test so I need another log to ruin or even better get boards from.

I have to work on guides.  The cut was uniform on both sides althoug again a 4 inch cut is not much.  Also the real question is how long the blade will last. Am I close or is this as "beenthere" would say, just another fuse in a bad electrical system.

Ox
The biggest stress of losing the post was I really wanted to tell you about the chain and I like responding to poeple that take an interest in my success.  My biggest frustration about the whole thing is how lazy I am at times.  I just couldn't make myself type it again cause it was a bunch of work at something I am not good at (typing and spelling).    The closest I can come to repeeting what I typed is I tried to take the chain angle to 10% from where it was much to fast.  I typed it to shaw I did not just build a mill right off but tryed to get wood other ways that did not work that well either.  I used examples of how I try things and usually fail before I succeed, like wind turbined and chicken pluckers.  Half of it was probly fluff that would have wasted your time anyway.

I did take fishpharmers advice and just try to come up with a way to live with a little flex if I can get the mill to cut wood and not ruin blades.  I couldn't get it out anyway so it is good advice.
Thanks
gww

[GF]

Still curious if your blades are level with your deck.  If they are not level the back side of the blade during the cut can rub against the wood causing friction and then it will cause heat, when the blade heats it will then loose tension.  I would make sure the blade is level with the deck to eliminate this issue, make sure to check it with full blade tension. 

Also curios what your SFPM is, the calculation is Motor RPM X Motor pulley diameter / Driven pulley diameter X Bandsaw wheel diameter x 3.1416 / 12 = S.F.P.M.  Here is a link to an online calculator you can use http://vintagemachinery.org/math/sfpm.aspx
The average motor running RPM of small engines is around 3200 to 3500.

Example:  Engine RPM 3400, 5" motor pulley, and 12" drive pulley, 20" tires
   3400 X 5 / 12 X 20 X 3.1416 /12 = 7417SFPM

Here is a one of the pictures of my fully hydraulic sawmill I completed back in 2004 from my gallery, it also uses tires and I have not had a problem with them, I also run the Cooks blade guides.  I started out using bearings like what you have, but found out real quick they will lock up.  I have taken the Cooks off a couple of times and trued them up on the metal lathe since the fronts round over after a lot of use.

Gary

[gww]

Gary
I spent the last two days trying to make sure the blade is running parelel to the track.  I think I have it but my wheel tracking adjustment is differrent then most mills and I am sure it would be easy to lose.  I did have to cut welds and tilt the drive wheel to obtain that. 

I believe I have seen your mill from trolling this site an it popping up in search engines while trying to research building one.  It was a very ambitious project and you must be proud. Good to hear that the tires cause you no issues. 

I did go to that site to caculate speed and my mill is on the high side depending on motor rpm.  It sounds simple to say 3400 rpm motor but when you search the internet they give you speeds of 2500 to 3400 and thay say in places that the briggs that were put on garden tillers were less.  worse case sinario I am at 9000 fpm or above.  I have a 3.5 pully on motor between a seven or eight inch pully on the wheel and my tires are 20.5 inches.  The problim is the only possible change without building a new mill is a motor pully reduction.

Here are the pictures of my recent attempts at helping my cut.  I forgot to show where I cut and wedged stuff and rewelded to change my wheel tilt.

Here is the one inch square pipe I put inside my tension slide bar and welded in front and back.  Trying to strengthen it.



  

Here is the other side of the tension bar that the one inch pipe is sticking out of (hard to see it).  I also doubled the back plate that the wheel adjustment bolts go through.



  

Here is a piece of rebar I welded to the back side of the head to get whatever it would give me.  No real room anywhere unless I decide to make my cut depth smaller.



  

Although this picture is simular to the one above, I took it to show the water pipe that I welded to the back side of the two pieces of steel holding the wheels, one of which is the one the tension bar slides in.



  

This is a board I cut with no guides, a new blade and after the above (improvements?).



  

This picture was to show what I am using to put my guides on, water pipe sliding in water pipe with nuts to tighten with.  The other pictures probly show it better.



  

I don't even know why I took this picture.



 

Well tha-ba tha-ba thats all folk.   I had to end with porky pig cause I figures I am posting a comedy.  Have fun and comments are welcome.   It may not look like much but it took me two days.
Thanks
gww

[beenthere]

gww
I'm not keeping up very well... but I've tried.  :D

So much "welding in place" where seems to be a need for the ability to fine adjust things. Especially when there are forces that will bend and twist the plumbing pipes and connectors that you are relying on to keep things straight. 

I sure hope it works for you eventually and cuts some lumber. Truth be known, I don't see it being a possibility but give you big kudo's for your determination and grit. Wish you the best.

[gww]

beenthere
You might be right although if you are talking about the last pumbing pipe, it was just put there to help put more tension so things couldn't move,  If it is the guides only one peice is welded and the rest moves with pinch nuts to lock it in place.  It was the only thing I could think of that would give me movement in every single direction.  On it what I worry about is is it heavy enough or will bounce get me.  I actually thought that the ideal was to make everything except two things compleetly immovable but as you can see I can't claim to have building skills.  Most of the advice I got was to make it stronger so it wouldn't twist and turn.  I hope it cuts some day without ruining blades before there time.  I know it looks rickity but it has what some of the simpler mills that are outthere have.  Or I missed what they have which is also possible.  I haven't got it proven to be right yet but I do have an angle grinder till I burn it up.  I will keep adjusting till I get some kind of board out of it.

You may be right though, I may never get it right.  It is my best though for what it is worth.
Thanks
gww

[Ox]

If you got a decent board without using the guides, why not run it some more like that?  Run it at least twice as long as you did with the other blades after they went bad on you.  This should tell you for sure if the guides are what is causing you trouble.  And heck, if you're not after speed or production, why not run it without guides.  It's just for a few boards here and there, right?  You can watch the blade tracking to see how hard to push.  If your mill will do for you what you want it to do, to heck with it - run it like it is!  I think your mill looks like a fella had a need and filled a need with what he had on hand and with the smallest possible cash layout.  Nothing wrong with that!  My first mill was built that way.  Sawed two boards and everything went to heck.  I didn't have the heart at that time in my life to keep trying to get it to work and it was before I found this forum.  This was around 5 years ago or so.  Bad times then....  Keep it up, you're doing fine!  I love redneck/hillbilly ingenuity.  It's amazing what we can accomplish with what we have on hand.
P.S.  If you ever saw me you'd swear I just crawled out of the swamp somewhere... ;D

[gww]

Ox

I noticed the cuts had a thicker washboard look to them.  Not thick enough that I couldn't use the board for my needs and all but one (I only did 4) were uniform thickness on both sides all the way down the lenght.  I am sure there are guys who have sawed enough that just by looking at the blade marks on a board, they could tell if something was out of wack and probly what that something is.  One had a slight wave but there was a knot there.  Over all it is cutting second best I have ever seen it.  I would like to get some guides at some point that work cause I might be able to milk a blade just a bit longer.  I still don't know if their is someone who can sharpen around here and I have a feeling shipping is a bugger though if I actually got 400 board foot out of a blade these last six might last me forever.  I hate being down to my last and needing one and having to wait on shipping cause I don't plan my life well enough for that, I am a more this needs done now and then now that is more important.  I pretty much do what is interesting enough to modivate me or that I have no choice on.

I am going to try and get another big white oak tommorrow while I still have dads tractor.  (I think it is a white oak, I am not sure) .  This one is a bit bigger and I am hoping I can still carry it with the bucket rather then drag it.  His tractor seemed slow lifting this last log.  Either way I can't keep the tractor forever.  That is the plan now, it may change in the morning.

I will cut with out guides untill I get alot better guides then I currently have.  We will see if I even get one good cut on a bigger log cause a 4 inch cut only helps my confidence a small bit. 

I really did spend a lot of time measuring from the blade to the deck and am pretty sure I have it right or really really close. 

I agree that I was doing my best with what I had to work with.  I would not have bought a new one but somehow can justifie in my mind trying to do it this way.  I really do hope it works good enough for my needs.  I built my chicken nest and bee hives with a bunch of nonstandard sizes and a whole bunch of differrent species of wood so it doesn't need to be perfect but does need to be usable.

I have my fingers crossed it all works out.

thanks for the pep talk and advice.
gww

The boards made me happy but it wasn't much of a test.

[Ox]

You're right.  This next bigger log will tell you alot I think.  And I also think that "usable" boards really makes you think.  I guess that firewood is usable as a building material if you mortar it up in cordwood construction.  And I suppose you could make some kind of structure using fenceposts.  In the old days they used split boards.  I guess it all depends on if you're happy with it.  I built a chicken coop a few years back off my neighbors slab/cull pile.  Larch.  Splintery darn things, larch boards.  Looks great for a chicken coop and the chickies don't mind a bit.  Most people in today's society would have gone to a store and bought brand new lumber and such.  Those of us on this board are not these types of people. 
I think you're probably wise to continue to improve your guides.  I think there's a reason all these mills have them.  I was really hoping it would work for you to your satisfaction without having to continue the trial and error stuff.  I know how that is.  My hat's off to you for your dedication. 
With your chainsaw story I'm guessing you tried taking a grinder to get your teeth to 10 degrees for milling?  Heh.  Me too.  The second time around I just used the new chain as is and when needing sharpening I started moving the 30 to 10 each time I had to file.  This was years ago too.

[GF]

Here is an article you may want to read of fpm and HP from Cooks Saw, they have a lot of helpful information that I researched during my build.

http://www.cookssaw.com/Articles/bandsawturn.php


Here are some guidelines from the article: 8 hp max speed 3,500 fpm, 12 hp max speed 4,000 fpm, 16 to 18 hp max speed 4,500 fpm, 25 hp max speed 5,000 fpm, 30 hp and above max speed 5,500 fpm.  It also talks about what happens when you exceed 5500 fpm even on higher horsepower sawmills.  I dont recall the fpm on my mill when I calculated it but it was under 5000 fpm using a 31 hp engine, I lost some HP due to the hydraulic pump being driven from it also.

I also could not tell from your photo of your blade guide if it slides in and out using round pipe, if this is the case what keeps the blade guides level with the deck when you adjust it in and out.  You may think about using square tubing with a nut welded on the corner edge of the tube with a bolt locking it in place and keeping it square.  Just a few more ideas.