Over-length in logs and lumber

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

In another discussion topic, the comment was made that 4/4 hardwood lumber length is 6" longer than the indicated length.  That is, 8 foot lumber is actually 8'6.  Certainly, the grading rules do not require over length.  On any log or lumber that is 6" longer, that is 6% more wood, 6% more  log weight, 6% more wear on the saws, 6% more lumber weight, 6% more energy when drying, etc.

Plus, the next log in the tree is going to be 6" further up the tree, so it will be a little bit smaller, meaning less lumber in the next log.  The third log will be a foot high up the tree.  If we consider that log taper is 2" per 8', we can actually predict the yield loss from being higher up the tree...about 2 BF loss (2 to 4%) for being one foot higher, although it depends on diameter.

I have heard the justification that the over-length on lumber allows for end checks (3" on each end) that will not affect grade as this 3" is free.  So, you do not have to use an end coating either.

I have heard that the user of the lumber likes over-length as it boosts yield for free.

Over-length can help when grading...in some cases.

Many large companies might give an over-length of 1/4".

I am curious what log over-length you use on the average.  Also, what lumber over-length?

I would also be interested in discussion about this practice for hardwoods.  I do believe softwood lumber has no over-length.

[Ox]

I'm not in business - I saw for myself and friends and family.  I've always added 6" to a log, mainly because most of my chainsaw cuts aren't perfectly square and to allow for checking. 
Besides, an old timer told me to do it this way a long time ago and I listen to them old boys!

[Peter Drouin]

 

 

All my pine and hemlock is 6" over  Hardwood is 4" to 6"over.

[mesquite buckeye]

I cut my hardwood logs where they bend and get whatever I get. I get more lumber yield but the stacking/stickering is more complicated.

[Cedarman]

ERC is normally 3" as cedar end checks very little.  With 1 1/2" taper per 8' on average, doesn't take long to lose some footage.  When bucking for 4x4 posts, I cut 1" over, for 6' posts and fence boards, just 1/2 to 1".
Butt logs I may add 6" to 1' depending on what ingrown looks like.
So I guess you could say we have no certain amount of trim , just that if a log comes in exactly 8', we measure as 7'.  Cedar is measured in 1' increments rather than 2'.
We buy mostly by weight, in tree lengths.  The decision to buck is done in house.
We do see logs come 8' 11", 11' 11" ect.  When logs are bucked by the logger , we buy by scale.  Lots of money lost by improper merchandizing.
If your business is doing  $200,000 per year and you can increase yield by 2 1/2%, that is $5000 per year, over 20 years, your nest egg could be $100,000 bigger plus interest.

[red oaks lumber]

coming from a "hardwood dr." i am appalled that you act like 6" over is abnormal ;) common sense will tell you when finish mills are running their products the whole board is availible for product. why trim the ends before hand. maybe its 6% or what crazy number you like to use. the profit is 100%
the funniest part of the last couple of days,its killing you that some wood grub in podunk wisconsin is shooting holes in your numbers.

[Jeff]

Red Oaks Lumber, this topic was not started with Gene simply asking the opinion of some "wood grub" (your words) so he would then have to duck and cover. He said in his introductory post he was interested in a discussion.  So, in turn, rather than your exchanging Individual ideas based on personal statistics and theories and observations, you decide to shoot spit wads.  I suggest you change your modus operandi at this very moment if you would like to have your ineffectual existence here continue.

[drobertson]

In these parts the tie market controls most of the log length and is therefore the target, with the outside lumber being the bonus.  8'8" is normal, if not 9'4", which gives us nine foot lumber and a trim on the ties to 8'6",  from there it is mostly 4" over the rest of the even numbers from 10' up typ.  custom sawing finds a very wide array of lengths. I personally like to have a log at least long enough to allow for using my toe rollers to manage butt swells, this is 8' 6" on average, not completely necessary but yields a few more shorter clearer boards for me.

[millwright]

So here is a ?  If a customer brings in logs that are over length by say 4-8" do you figure that in total bf when charging for sawing

[drobertson]

So here is a ?  If a customer brings in logs that are over length by say 4-8" do you figure that in total bf when charging for sawing

I do not,  8'11 is 8' just as 17'2 for 16 foot trusses, 17', just the way it is here. however I did saw out a 17 footer for 16 the other day, but, he asked what he owed, and I figured it 16' just cause.  Just give and take the way I see it.

[longtime lurker]

Here dimensional tolerances are set as part of AS 2082, that being the hardwood stress grading standard. LEngth shall be not less then specified... But it doesn't say we have to give them any freebies either,and there's also allowance for 100mm of end split in that stated length. Not that we tend to leave in end splits but... It's more a safeguard against reasonable drying loss. In practice I usually crosscut my logs at 6" oversize or so to allow the ends to be squared up through the docking saw. Logs arrive in my yard at tree length or 45', whichever is the greater.

Appearance product that we hold to kiln/ dress/ value add I leave as long as I can inside the constraints of the kiln chamber. KD scantling timber then falls back under AS2082 for length, but flooring decking mouldings etc we hold at random length unless a specific length is on order. That's the beauty of an endmatcher... All those extra 6" bits add up.

If I wanted to saw timber just to give it away I'd do it on weekends for a hobby...

[WDH]

Here in the South, as a Procurement Forester, the standard was 6" of length over the nominal length for cut to length logs when setting mill specifications.  Some mills will go as low as 4", however, most are at 6".  In most cases, it is a defensive posture.  Most loggers have to be productive and efficient to be profitable.  It is a competitive environment.  Before the advent of modern computerized logging machines, there was a bit of slop in getting lengths on logs right without cutting them too short.  An operator in a large log loader with a buck saw sits many feet away from the log he/she is cutting to length.  Or, a guy with a chainsaw is cutting logs to length on the ground with some sort of measurement tape or a pole or stick.  They are working as fast as possible in the interest of profitability and efficiency.  Sometimes the end of the tape gets cut off, or the stick gets a little short.  It is not a precisely accurate process.  That is the way it is in the woods, at least here in the South.

Adding some inches to the target length allowed for some slop in these less than perfectly accurate measurement processes while still allowing the loggers to be productive without having to measure a log to a split hair.  The impact of cutting a log 1/2" short is a huge loss to a mill as it normally brought about a 2' yield loss as a lot of lumber is sold on even lengths.  In the pine dimension markets, a 15' 11" 2x10 cannot be sold as a 16' 2x10.  It becomes a 14' 2x10 because it is trimmed to 14' at the trimmer.  That is a 12.5% yield loss to the mill.

So, the mill sets the spec at a length that 99% of loggers and workers in the woods can hit without a laser or other very precise measuring equipment in the interest of efficiency and productivity without an overly large amount of time doing fine measurements when many loads of logs are being produced from the woods daily. 

In the pine dimension markets, boards are trimmed to even multiples of 2'.  There is no mill "over-run on the trim.  The trim goes to the chipper.  However, in other applications, that overage in the trim may allow a secondary producer to claim some extra yield because their product is not produced in multiples of 2'.  It all depends on the market.  But, the Industry has developed standards, at least empirical standards.  Requiring some extra length on cut-to-length logs is one of those standards.

[Ljohnsaw]

Interesting.  I never really thought about it since I don't saw yet and won't be doing it for income.  I just figured it was like buying at the big box store.  They have hardwood at random lengths and widths.  They calculate BF on the actual measurements so there is no "waste" nor "freebies".  Sometimes you can argue if there is a big knot or crack that makes an end unusable.  I have noticed the soft wood (2x) has gone from a typical ½" to ¾" oversize (length) to a mere 1/8" (except for pre-trimmed studs that are exact).

[WDH]

There is a difference in the large volume "wholesale" lumber market where mills are producing tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of BF per day for sale to lumber brokers and large lumber distribution centers or Big Box Stores, and the small specialty producer that is sawing on a small or portable sawmill, sawing custom orders, or selling to more retail customers rather than tractor trailer loads or railcar loads in the general market.

A secondary producer, say a flooring manufacturer, can buy this wholesale lumber and make a product out of it that is different from construction softwood lumber that is precise in how wide and long it has to be.  They can take advantage of rough sawn lumber that has not been processed to "final" dimension in the wholesale market, and utilize all the material in their product as they are not producing a generic commodity product like a 2x4 or 2x10. 

It all depends on the market.  The overall market is huge, and some of us only play in an infinitesimal part of it.  Others are involved in the thick of the fray. 

[scsmith42]

Most of the 16' longs that I source are cut at 16'6" - 16'9".  Since I pay by the ton, in essence I am paying for all of the log - not just 16' of it.

However, almost all of my customers are not looking for a fixed length, so I don't trim unless I am making a pair of 8'3" logs or have to trim to get rid of end checks.  Thus, if I source a clean end 16'6" log and end seal it, I am going to be able to sell 16'6" of usable lumber.

If we do custom milling, we calculate board footage based upon what the actual board length, width and thickness is, not a derivative thereof.

[Hookpilot]

I tell my customers they pay by the BF that comes off the mill. I haven't had any complaints yet especially when they see the pile of flitches and trim boards that they are not paying for.

[Jeff]

On the commercial end of things, when you are having to conform to certain rules and standards such as some of the hardwood grading rules, some things happen that just don't make common sense. I used to see it time and time again when the grader was there. Cutting a foot of clear lumber off of a board in order to make it fit the lumber rules to get it into the next grade that made it worth way more money than it was worth with the foot of clear lumber still on the end in the lower grade.   Just seemed flat out ridiculous, but that's the way you play the game when you don't make the rules.

[Cedarman]

As Jeff has pointed out some things just don't make sense.   Gene has done a good thing getting this discussion going.  Knowing why things are done the way they are really can help a logger, or sawyer maximize their profits.
One of the best things I ever did was take a lumber grading short course.  Very eyeopening.  Especially since I didn't have a clue about lumber.  I thought the best lumber came from the heart of the log instead of the outer.  I still think that way because with ERC the best lumber is heartwood.

[sandsawmill14]

In these parts the tie market controls most of the log length and is therefore the target, with the outside lumber being the bonus.  8'8" is normal, if not 9'4", which gives us nine foot lumber and a trim on the ties to 8'6",  from there it is mostly 4" over the rest of the even numbers from 10' up typ.  custom sawing finds a very wide array of lengths. I personally like to have a log at least long enough to allow for using my toe rollers to manage butt swells, this is 8' 6" on average, not completely necessary but yields a few more shorter clearer boards for me.

x2 

i charge buy the length 8,10,12,14,16,18, ... if its 17 it gets cut back the only exception is if someone orders odd length like a 19 ft beam or something then they are charged actual length to the nearest ft.
but as drobertson said the rr tie company sets the log length

[Ron Wenrich]

Tie quality logs were cut 8" over.  Some even made it to 9' to gather that extra foot in a grade board.  However, too many 9' boards weren't liked very well by the lumber buyers.  Too hard to stack a bundle of 9' to fit in the bunks, I suppose.  If we were doing tulip poplar, the 8' log was closer to 8'4".   4" trim was more the norm for non-tie logs.  Veneer logs sometimes were given a few inches extra as buyers often liked to see what the log looked like as fresh cut.  We had quite a few log cookies that were only a few inches thick.  If you went too short, you might be out of veneer value.  Also, logs that had end defect were often left long so we could trim off the defect and still have lumber that was long enough for a product.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Two additional questions that could affect how over-length is evaluated...

1. When selling lumber, if you have a fresh piece of 4/4  (1-1/8") that is 12' long and 6-1/4" wide, would you sell it as 6 BF or 6-1/4 BF?

2.  The same except the piece is 12'6.  Would this be 6 BF, 6.-1/2 BF, or something else?

In other words, is the over length free or do you add it to the footage?

Another issue might be drying.  If you have mixed over lengths in the same stack, especially hardwoods, like 4" through 8", when the lumber is stacked, will the extra length on the long pieces hanging out from the stack dry well or will it split or check?  Maybe it will if not end coated, but if end coated, will all the over length be useful?

One benefit of over length is that the cabinet maker, furniture maker, flooring mill, etc. will notice that they get higher yields from your lumber and will want more...and maybe even pay more for this"better, high yield" lumber.

[SwampDonkey]

It all makes money up here. It could be firewood, or pulp if it's not a piece of lumber. We don't have many hardwood sawmills up here, but they sell firewood all the time from cut offs and sell the sawdust as pulp, bark and junk for hog fuel. Up here, if you have the markets, it's hard for a mill to really lose because they are all tethered to a volume of wood off public land. Plus large tracts of industrial freehold (mill ground). They know where, when and how much for years ahead. In other words they don't have to go scrounging for wood volume. Any mill without freehold wood in reserve can be in a bind though. But many smaller mills have timberland of their own that they hardly ever touch.

[sandsawmill14]

over length is always free and over width is free unless it is random width then it is measured by the pack (stack 42" wide x 1 1/8" thick x 30 layers high dead stacked) at least thats how we do it anyway ;D

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Tallying the pack rather than individual pieces  (often called a block tally) makes sense indeed, especially if not grading hardwoods.  I see it often in both small and large operations.  (When grading hardwoods, each piece is tallied, called the surface measure, SM, as part of the grading process, so individual numbers are automatically available.)  Even larger mills are block tallying packs for export to Europe as the technique is so common there.  I recently saw a computerized scanner system that block tallied.

Question...if you had 4/4 42" wide and 12'6 lengths, would each layer be counted as 42 BF or as 44 BF?

[woodmills1]

On my scale it is the 7 foot 9 inch or 13 foot 10 inch board that ruins my bottom line.   I will say production high end large scale is way different than what I do.  In my world most want a hefty thickness and length.  Well, except for the steel company who wants 8 foot even 4x4 so they don't have to trim them with a dull sawsawl metal blade to not overhang the truck.  This kind of question should be defined as production based or what do you sell to who.