Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

[customsawyer]

That works fine if your blade clears the log but I don't like messing with those little ones.  ;)
Danny I have never shown you that technique.

[Sixacresand]

Nobody on FF ever "pleads the pith".   :D

[Roxie]

Yer killing me!   :D :D :D

[barbender]

 :D That's a great idea, both of you :D

[WDH]

No Jake, you are right.  I demonstrated that technique all by myself, but I did not invent it.  I suspect that 4x4 American, D-U-G developed it in secret. 

[flatrock58]

I just got a log from the city yesterday.  It is a 36" 100 year old red oak.  I spent most of its life on the edge of a field and the pith is off center a good bit.  If I want to try and maximize the quarter sawn wood would I still try to center the pith or center the log?




 

[YellowHammer]

Having an off center pith log is a gift when quarter sawing.  Split it down the pith, and concentrate your efforts on the larger "half" of the log.  In essence, since the "half" is actually more then half the log then you will get wider quarter sawn boards from it. 

[Larry]

Look at the rays.  Take a marker and mark them.  This will give you a clear idea of where to put the blade.

[paul case]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjOiMvc_ro

This guy has a little bit different way of doing it.

PC

[Chuck White]

Really nice video Paul!   

[pineywoods]

DANG, that 70 is FAST  ;D Notice the masterful use of that 2 plane clamp, much more than just a clamp..I also notice a trick I frequently use, standing flitches up beside the cant, edge and saw a board at the same time...I'm saving up some big white oak logs to try my hand at quarter sawing...

[YellowHammer]

The guy knows how to run a mill, thats for sure, and the technique he uses is the conventional process that I have moved away from.  Watching him work, I noticed several things that I used to do, but don't do any more using the Reverse Roll.  Not saying he's doing anything wrong, just saying its not how I do it anymore, and I think I can point out the differences and (hopefully) advantages of the RRQS.

First is that after gun barreling he takes a cut directly through the center of the log to split it.  The disadvantage of doing it this way is that after taking his measurements, he takes a single, blind cut through the widest and arguably most valuable piece of the log.  He may hit perfect ray fleck, he may not.  Either way, he can't make an adjustment, and that surface will be turned down to the bed, as a basic index face, for some of other major cuts on the widest and most valuable sections of the quarters.  So the blind center cut has a significant effect on the following boards down the line.  In contrast, I prefer to measure to the center, as he does, but then raise the band enough to take a couple boards higher and cut down through the log center.  That way I get 3 or 4 center cut quartersawn boards, and if the first cut is a miss, then I can make adjustments to maximize fleck before I get to the center boards.

The sawyer in the video then takes the half logs and again centers them up and again takes a measured but blind cut through the widest and most valuable section.  If the ray fleck isn't there, or isn't optimum, then he has to live with it on the successive boards.  Using the RRQS method, the log half is not quartered, and the first cuts are made from the narrowest and least valuable section at the top edge of the log half.  By the time I get to the widest and most valuable section, I have everything dialed in and there is no doubt that I will get optimum and predictable fleck in the widest boards.  No guessing and no blind cuts. 

Also, the sawyer cut perfectly good log halves into quarters which results in just taking more effort and more time per log.  One log is multiplied into 4 quarters that must be individually milled, instead of just 2 halves.  Multiply that by logs, and it makes a difference by the end of the day.  If I start the session with say 4 good logs worth quartersawing, then cutting them into quarters will result in me now having to individually handle and mill 16 quarter sections instead of just 8 halves.   

I'd only used my LT 40 for this technique, but when CustomSaywer at the Sycamore Project used his LT70 with the chain turner and his 2.5 million bdft per year experience, he was done in a flash.  He got in a rhythm because as each board was coming off, all he had to do was glance at it to tell if he needed to tweak the rotation or take another cut.   

[WDH]

The results of the RRQS technique are amazing.  I am pretty slow, but steady. 

[PA_Walnut]

I wish I had come across this a few days ago. 

Been sawing some BIG old-growth white oaks and got into some INCREDIBLE figure.
Took my time with them, looking for the rays, but use technique similar to the above LT70 operator.

Have about 25 more really big/great logs to saw (white and red) and will focus on this technique. Yellow's statement about how rift/off-quarter boards, not having exemplary rays is spot-on. Might as well be flat-sawn.

When I'm into material like this white oak (see below), that is BIG and very curly, close-enough isn't good enough. Got some awesome material, but need ALL of it to be awesome!

Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D

[Brad_bb]

I'm planning to have two QS white oak doors built very soon.  Problem is I want some really wicked QS grain so they really stand out.  I haven't ordered them yet because I don't want to let the door company just pick out of their stock and have it not be the wicked grain I want.  I have some white oak logs in the yard, but I'm quite apprehensive to try it on my LT15.  Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?

[YellowHammer]

Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D

That is some nice wood.  Good thing is with this technique as you stated, there is only minimal "hands on" handling of the log halves.  After the first pith cut, assuming the log had a flat bottom due to gunbarreling to reorient it back to the mill deck, release the two plane, slide it all the way under the log to the inboard side, and raise the clamp up while moving it to the loader arms.  It will cause the log to roll and the top log half to nicely slide off the bottom directly onto the loader arms to get it out of the way.  Reclamp the bottom half of the log on the mill and continue taking the pith boards.  No more quarter handling required, no more hernias or pinched fingers.

[WDH]

It works. 

[4x4American]

Hey Brad how you like these doors they're at a place where my friend works

[Brad_bb]

Yes 4x4American, that grain is pretty wicked.  I'm planning to do a light colored door, that is lighted with antique textured blue chicken wire glass in one(bathroom door) and one with clear antique industrial chicken wire glass.  Both will have vintage handles and mortise lock sets.

[YellowHammer]

Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?

I haven't done it on a manual mill, but there are a few tricks to make things more stable when sawing as the cant gets smaller.  First, when as the sections gets smaller, you can set the high side against the backstops and the low side against the clamp. That way the band is pulling it into the backstops and will generally prevent it from rocking.

Also, when I get to the small sections, and get a good QS fleck on a face, I will stop sawng that face while it is still pretty wide and showing fleck and put it on the mill deck.  That accomplishes two things, it makes the cant more stable because a wide face is on the deck, and it also brackets the fleck for the remainder of the cant.  With a good fleck face on the deck, I know that the quicker I hit fleck in the initial cuts, I am guaranteed good fleck all through the cant.

I have had the cant shift while sawing and even at the Sycamore Project, Customsawer had one shift as it got lighter.  Most times you can see it is about to happen because you'll see the piece start to rotate up with the cut, and you can simply slow down and gravity will take over and the piece will rotate back down as the force of the band lessens.  No harm done.  I've never ruined a band when a piece shifts, it just makes a not so flat board.

I've been quartersawing some nice Sycamore last week, about a dozen or so 2' to 3' diameter logs.  Here's the remaining whack of logs after I was about halfway done, some showing some real nice figure on the butts and making some real nice boards.  Sycamore is an all or nothing proposition, and if a board has good fleck, it is worth good money, however if it has no fleck, it's firewood.  Nobody will buy it.  So it's extremely important to hit fleck and stay in it.  There was one log that just wasn't cooperating and showing as much fleck as I wanted, so I started doing some skim cuts, grain chasing and found if I raised the rear toeboard about a half inch, the fleck became superb.  The point is that with this technique, I could fiddle with both the rotation and axis to optimize the fleck with the smaller, narrower boards, and once I found it, game over for the rest of the half log.   
Also, as I mentioned earlier in the topic, and shown in the picture below,  I don't Anchorseal logs I'm going to quartrsaw, as it obscures the end grain and can't see to rotate.  So I mill the logs up unsealed, and seal the entire pack of board end when I'm done and they are sitting on a pallet.   

   

 

[WDH]

It is really important to have the cant touching the bed rails all the way down the length of the cant.  As I was learning this technique, if I was not careful, when I bumped the cant up a bit to re-orient the rings to get the fleck, the opposite end of the cant may not be touching the bed rails, and as the blade and sawhead move along the cant cutting the board, the cant would be unstable and shift in the cut.  I cut a few wedges and odd shaped pieces until I figured out what was happening.

[kelLOGg]

Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?

See reply #79. I plan on doing it again on a larger oak.
Bob

[PA_Walnut]

Not sealing the logs is key. I try to seal mine immediately upon arrival, but it makes qsawing REALLY difficult, since seeing the growth rings requires Xray glasses.  8)

Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!

[YellowHammer]

Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!

It will work fine, but here's a couple tips.  Depending on how much you have to cut off, put a bunk or two under the soon to be trimmed off part so they will be supported as they are cut.  No dropping or tipping of the cut ends will allow smooth sawing with no chain binding.

Put a safety board directly under the cut line so that the tip of the chainsaw doesn't accidental sink into the dirt.  If it goes in too far, it will hit the wooden board. 

The longer the bar the better, and angle the saw with the tip up and the handle at about 45° For the first few seconds of the cut, which will prevent the top boards from sliding when the chain starts cutting.  After a bit, rotate the saw to horizontal and then cut through the bottom.  Remember the safety board to keep the saw out of the dirt.

[YellowHammer]

I was doing a little more RRQS today and thought I'd try to point out a few things that might make it easier to follow.

I have this decent sized 23 inch gunbarreled log ready to go, and one thing to remember about the rotations is that when I get the the middle of the half log, I should be close to perpendicular to the midline pith cut because I know that there will be a couple good boards to get there.  This helps me consider the cuts so I know I have to be on target when I get there.

So I marked a the log with the radial pattern for ease of showing what I mean, and also marked in heavier Sharpie the midline boards I want to be in position to take when I get to that point.  I don't normally mark the board this many times, but did it to illustrate the log half position and angles.  The solid line is the exact midline, the dashed lines above and below are where I want to be when I get there.  After taking the first wedge cut, I'm in the fleck but it's a little light and short.  That's fine because, I know the next cut will be better as I get more alignment. 




Sure enough, the next cut and I'm really in it, below.


No need the change anything, so I take another cut.  Still in it.  This is good and bad as I'm starting to get to the point where in need to be rotated to hit the midline boards.  Oh well, never leave a hot fishing hole.  I have a badly set tooth on the band.  Embarrassing.  At least it helps indicate my feed rate.


I couldn't leave heavy fleck, so took another board, getting right at the midline.  The fleck is starting to fade out, so I need to do a rotation and get back in it. 


So now I'm rotated up, and have taken off a wedge and another narrow but fleck board and am now set right on the midline target lines, as I wanted to be.  I didn't get full width on the previous or this board due to me sawing so deep before rotating, but it doesn't matter too much and I know I'll be in the fleck with these.


It's fine and heavy fleck and so I take another, directly lined up with the centerline Sharpie mark I drew on the half log originally.  Really nice board.


So now I'm halfway through the log half and continue the process with the rest of it until I don't have anything more to whittle on.  This was a pretty forgiving log, and I got fleck on every board, no misses on the entire log.