tigercats new skidder

[mike_belben]

So ive been wondering about swing booms.  I see that theyre typically a love or hate item on skidders (and that seems to be based in whether theyre on the right or wrong task application) ...  I am curious how would a swing boom work as a log loader in the woods.. Within reason, for a one man show.

I have a dozer and offroad forklift.  The forklift has to stay on a generous sized landing where it has room to work, and is terrible at short logs, drops them everywhere, cant spin butts around etc.  The dozer is really slow on long skids but it would be tolerable to forward CTL logs on a home made trailer.   That still means dragging logs to a main trail.  I was thinking a swing boom skidder makes sense if it can fetch and load bucked logs on the trailer parked nearby.  One at a time is tolerable if need be.  Still much faster than using the dozer all the way to the landing.  A forestry trailer with loader could work but wont be able to get off the main trail so logs still need to be dragged to the edge.  I could do that with dozer but iron undercarriage is slow and wear is at a higher price than rubber.

A real log loader is the thing im trying to avoid.  It means getting a road tractor,  building culverts and gravel road entrances etc.  Im trying to find max productivity in the medium duty truck size with the least amount of equipment.  want to stay smaller and do less roadbuilding, less insurance etc.  And id love to leave the forklift home.

Thoughts?

[coxy]

why not find an old army truck that's all wheel drive should be able to put 1-1500bf on it and go that's what some of the guys around here do they also have loaders on them

[mike_belben]

I did find a 5ton with a prentice that woulda been great if i could have afforded it.  Im broke for the forseeable future 

I build machines, thats more whats behind my line of questioning.  I have a complete backhoe off a massey 450hx that i considered putting on back my forklift in place of the counterweight.  Im certain itll work well but the forklift is still a landing only machine that cant really be used much in winter here (it rains but doesnt freeze).  I just wonder if the backhoe bits grafted onto a cable skidder could be a little handier and more capable of getting in the woods.   Plus planting the hoe would make a great high pulley mount to winch up out of the hollars.  Thats where the maturest trees usually are on the sites i get into, the ones skipped by the previous logger.

[lopet]

You have to figure out your priorities. Is it skidding or loading ?  There is no perfect machine for every task.
I have a Patu swing boom on the back of my skidder, it's not meant to do what the one in the video is doing, but because I am mostly doing firewood and dealing with a lot of small diameter stuff, it's working for me. It has a lot of pros and cons, I can pick up a lost stick on the skid trail with my next drag  or I can pack a couple of them in the grapple on top of the two twitches ( under ideal conditions ) .  It's not a forwarder, visibility is very limited in my case, as the boom is mounted on top of the winch and fairly high. In the bush that can be a disadvantage, as you always have to watch  the hoses on top.  I was thinking of building a trailer  for it but changed my mind, it has also to do with that I can turn my seat only 90 degree and not 180  and I have twelve functions on one joy stick on the right and nothing on the left. I know, that all can be changed, but my point is that there is no " do it all buggy " without limitations.
     

[barbender]

The Euro skidders that have a forwarder crane, clambunk, and 3 winches look like the cat's meow to me.

[teakwood]

The Euro skidders that have a forwarder crane, clambunk, and 3 winches look like the cat's meow to me.

:D they have just 2 winches  :D

I would also suggest a eurostyle skidder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuBYffdiQhA

[mike_belben]

Looks like a full loader on front of the welte.  Thats pretty rare.

How much trouble can the swing boom get you into in terms of reaching out too far and rolling over?  Are the hydraulics powerful enough to pull the machine over on flat ground?  Does the blade stabilize things at all?

[ehp]

those small awassos  skidders are made in Quebec in 2 different horsepower classes and when I seen them the biggest was about $100,000. Looked ok but my feeling was you needed to be in good timber to make them pay, a small 440 jd would out skid them pretty bad , the 602 looks like a nice machine just need to find out the dollar price and see how things like the doors are , the 610 doors weigh a ton and when cable skidding getting in and out 100 times a day does not seem like fun

[lopet]

Looks like a full loader on front of the welte.  Thats pretty rare.

How much trouble can the swing boom get you into in terms of reaching out too far and rolling over?  Are the hydraulics powerful enough to pull the machine over on flat ground?  Does the blade stabilize things at all?

The front blade only gets about 5' above ground. I wouldn't call it a loader, more of a stacker.
Of coarse you can get the tires of ground when reaching out too far, but you realize pretty quick when instead lifting a load, the wheels go in the air.
Just drop it or try to drag it closer and then lift. Same thing with any other loader or forwarder, no need to roll it.     

[longtime lurker]

What size dozer are you running mike_belben?  Been a lot of logs loaded with a beak on the blade, though as a system it suits large or long logs.

I think that my perfect solution to doing much with little  would be a larger grapple skidder around a Clark 667 size and a trackloader around cat 953 class on single bar grousers with a winch. Thatd give me the rubber +grapple mix for fast and long hauls and a loader that can go/push where a skidder can't get to.

[mike_belben]

Its a komatsu d31P-18..  I think about 17,000 lbs.

I have a case 450 crawler loader up north but need to get my CDL-A before i can haul it down.  Thats been a frusterating challenge.

Its a ways off but i will come up with forks and a thumb to go on the case and thatll be a huge help.  Then i have to decide on which machine is suited for winch or grapple or trailer.  Probably pull trailer with d31 and load with 450 forks.

I wont buy a skidder unless logging turns unexpectedly profitable.

[OH logger]

Its a komatsu d31P-18..  I think about 17,000 lbs.

I have a case 450 crawler loader up north but need to get my CDL-A before i can haul it down.  Thats been a frusterating challenge.

Its a ways off but i will come up with forks and a thumb to go on the case and thatll be a huge help.  Then i have to decide on which machine is suited for winch or grapple or trailer.  Probably pull trailer with d31 and load with 450 forks.

I wont buy a skidder unless logging turns unexpectedly profitable.

that last sentence seems to me like an oxymoron. everywhere is soo different but around here and I would assume A LOT of other places it would be hard to be profitable WITHOUT a rubber tire skidder. unless you are in the mountains and in veneer logs a lot. I hope this didn't come off as smart mouthed but that's the way I see it. skidders are faster and  cheaper than dozers to maintain and built for the purpose. but I do understand that loggin is all they can basically do.

[longtime lurker]

I had a D31E-18 for about 10 years. Was a handy little machine and it made me some money but eventually it had to go because it was too small for what we tackle regularly. It'd carry a beak well enough if you didnt have a lot of logs over about 1½ ton or so... I never had a beak on mine but I loaded with it a couple times in desperation by chaining logs to the blade.

Plenty hydraulic flow there to run a grapple on one of them but as a machine (the E at least) it was balanced ass heavy for trim work. Any larger logs we pulled with it ended up chained up to the tree spear and we'd come out backwards because coming out forwards didnt seem to work real well. Those useless pivoting rippers didnt help much with getting the front of a log off the ground either.

Because of the longer dead axles on a P I'd be pretty cautious though... unless you're playing swamp loggers a P is going to give you troubles with dead axles/ duocone seals/ general final drive issues in the woods. How much I dont know... we had a better run with a D83P then we did with a D6D swampy so maybe Komatsu have got that right, or at least righter then Cat.

A loader is a machine designed to load, and any pushing is secondary. Kinda obvious but its your best bet loading.
Skidders make money compared with dozers/crawlers.... except when you go to places a skidder cant go.  Also kinda obvious but bears repeating

[Puffergas]

Sure like the 125E, forks would be handy. It is a keeper but so is the 225 Timberjack. A wheeled skidder can make production.









Good luck !

[coxy]

nice loader   what is the 4x4 monster that's neat

[mike_belben]

Its a komatsu d31P-18..  I think about 17,000 lbs.

I have a case 450 crawler loader up north but need to get my CDL-A before i can haul it down.  Thats been a frusterating challenge.

Its a ways off but i will come up with forks and a thumb to go on the case and thatll be a huge help.  Then i have to decide on which machine is suited for winch or grapple or trailer.  Probably pull trailer with d31 and load with 450 forks.

I wont buy a skidder unless logging turns unexpectedly profitable.

that last sentence seems to me like an oxymoron. everywhere is soo different but around here and I would assume A LOT of other places it would be hard to be profitable WITHOUT a rubber tire skidder. unless you are in the mountains and in veneer logs a lot. I hope this didn't come off as smart mouthed but that's the way I see it. skidders are faster and  cheaper than dozers to maintain and built for the purpose. but I do understand that loggin is all they can basically do.

No harm done and i totally agree.  I guess i should have said 'unless my dozer generates unexpected profits.'

I bought the crawler machines in cash when i had it, for building our homestead.  Im a machinist/welder/fabricator .. But all my equipment is still in storage up north so i had to make money however i could. But ive also got 2 young kids.   Logging and dirt work near home was about the only way i could make my own schedule and bring them with me at times.  Savings is gone and its day by day living now. Hopefully temporary. 

Im trying to work my way onto some large neighboring tracts with very good HW stands.  Where i can be profitable even at a snails pace.  If the logs will pay for it, and the terms are right ill buy a skidder, but not before then or by debt.  Little by little i'll build one eventually otherwise.

[mike_belben]

I had a D31E-18 for about 10 years. Was a handy little machine and it made me some money but eventually it had to go because it was too small for what we tackle regularly. It'd carry a beak well enough if you didnt have a lot of logs over about 1½ ton or so... I never had a beak on mine but I loaded with it a couple times in desperation by chaining logs to the blade.

Plenty hydraulic flow there to run a grapple on one of them but as a machine (the E at least) it was balanced ass heavy for trim work. Any larger logs we pulled with it ended up chained up to the tree spear and we'd come out backwards because coming out forwards didnt seem to work real well. Those useless pivoting rippers didnt help much with getting the front of a log off the ground either.

Because of the longer dead axles on a P I'd be pretty cautious though... unless you're playing swamp loggers a P is going to give you troubles with dead axles/ duocone seals/ general final drive issues in the woods. How much I dont know... we had a better run with a D83P then we did with a D6D swampy so maybe Komatsu have got that right, or at least righter then Cat.

A loader is a machine designed to load, and any pushing is secondary. Kinda obvious but its your best bet loading.
Skidders make money compared with dozers/crawlers.... except when you go to places a skidder cant go.  Also kinda obvious but bears repeating

Mine had new finals, sprockets and rails put on just before i got it.. So i guess theyre still a weak link on the 18.



The wide pads are a life saver here all winter. Ground doesnt freeze

I skid backwards off the blade too.  No winch at all yet but im considering putting it on front.  You can make the log dance around everything when pulling off a 6 way blade.  I have a fused neck, cant turn around anyway so its fine by me.   Junk like this doesnt pay and takes forever to rig up.



Thats a 41' stick that pays $200 and i can do em 2 at a time..  The pay rate is tolerable enough to continue as i am on good timber.  It'll never hang with a skidder but also do ponds, pads, roads, clearing etc. 



My foremen.









So were you parbuckling logs on with the dozer? Im trying to picture this. 

[Riwaka]

The greenish tractor is likely to be a Steiger (unless someone has used the green paint on something else). Steiger had a number of different models so the spec of the tractor needs to checked for id.

[longtime lurker]

I've never parbuckled a log before, and not in any hurry to do so.

We use wheel loaders where we can. If thats not available (not enough logs to justify shifting a loader/logs too big for a loader to handle) we ramp them. So we push up an earth ramp with the dozer, run the truck in alongside it, then using two saplings for skids we push the log up the ramp and across onto the truck. As a method it works well with big logs or where you'll hit your tonnage in two or three layers of wood on the truck.



 

A beak is a hydraulic thumb in the middle of the blade that works like a top clamp on a log loader does. It holds the log to the blade which gives greater control when loading off a ramp and means you dont need the saplings to bridge the gap between ramp face and truck. Dozers can lift a lot if it's secured to the blade... gotta remember that those hydraulics can lift up the front half of the dozer and in your case thats like 4 ton.

[mike_belben]

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation

[Puffergas]

Coxy, it's a farm tractor made by Steiger. It is a lot like their Bearcat model but this one was originally sold to AC but got repainted back to Steiger green, a long time ago, by a dealer I'm guessing. Steiger has an interesting history.

[coxy]

wouldn't take much to put a winch and arch on there  ;D does it seem to get around as good as a skidder would

[Puffergas]

Coxy, it gets around like a small tractor. Steiger did make a few skidder. My guess would be that they would be a bit tipsy. But I could find a place for one of them ! !

[ehp]

was at Tigercat head office today, they are building a new 602 right now so going to go see it here shortly , their waiting on the back frame half right now

[Riwaka]

602 testing - giving it the big pull at the end - loaded grapple and winch.
https://youtu.be/Pmi2cdfd0Kg