The Forestry Forum

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife service has shot 4 Northern Timber Wolves in this area in da last couple of weeks, with the hopes of shooting at least 1 more. Iron County, in the U.P. of Michigan has a large population. In some cases they are beginning to be a noticeable problem. 

Chet,  I would not say that to loud or the wolf huggers will be up there in force.  If they show up tell them that they should go out in the woods to protect the wolves.  Maybe they will get a good look at a wolf from the inside. :D :D

We have a real problem with Coyotes around here now.  They are killing all of the young deer.  I am not too upset about that really but I wish they would eat more coons. ;D  The real problem is they are cleaning up the neighborhood cats and dogs too.  Do not even think about leaving small animals unprotected around here.

Farmerdoug

Wolves are real usefull for keeping the coyote population in check and they both work to keep other species from being overpopulated.
In our role as Master of the Universe we need to monitor the balance , which is best done by leaving things alone.

Two big rabbits moved into my neighborhood and fed and froliced til there were six big rabbits feeding and frolicing. Then wily coyote wandered into town. In short I found 5 piles of fur and one VERY nervous rabbit. He is the fastest rabbit I have ever seen.

Speaking of rabbits, I guess that is why they are no longer fun to hunt.  I use to hunt them with a .22.  I would kick the brush and when they jumped I would wait until they stopped and take my shot.  Now with or with dogs they run like bullets to the nearest hole.  Never thought about the yotes being the cause of that too.  I have no problem with the balance of nature.  But man sure can screw it up good. 

Farmerdoug

I don't know your situation in other parts of the globe, but shooting coyotes here is just senseless. The fur isn't even worth much now a days. Coyotes killing deer is natural, even bambie has to feed something. If they were so worried about killing deer around here they shouldn't have clearcut all their winter habitat. I worked in the woods in BC among wolves and they never bothered us, most of the time you only knew they were around by their tracks. If they eat a few cats, great, there are way to many anyway. I get 5 or 6 neighbor's cats here at meal time looking for scraps, and I live out in farm country. I'm thinking a few of them cats are going to come up missing.  ;)

I thought clearcuts were the best thing for increasing deer herds. They like food, and clearcuts gets it fer dem, so I've been led to believe.

Clear cuts don't give thermal cover and the deep snow keep them away unless there is active logging where they use the machine trails to get to the tops. I don't see deer on clearcut acreages here in dead of winter, not even on my woodlot is there a deer track in winter in those plantations. Deer here head for the old softwood stands and yard up. Clear cuts are great for summer food though. In those older stands there is food from hardwood regen in the canopy openings and the lichens on the dead branches of fir and spruce. Should see when an old fir breaks off that is covered in old man's beard lichen. It's tramped to death from deer after the lichens. In northern NB where the old softwood was nuked from harvesting, the deer populations crashed. The deer do better in southern NB with less snow and milder winters.

So's they need both, is what you're sayin. Food for summer, shelter for winter (and maybe food on the edges).

Down here in the south, a year old clear cut with the tops left in it are deer havens. It doesnt get cold enough to kill all vegitation and some actualy grow well during the winter. The deer will go into these areas and not walk out of it particularly if the buck-doe ratio is bad out of whack. If there's too many does and the herd is staying in the clear cuts, the buck wont chase one doe. They stay in the clear cut until another is ready do breed. They have all the feed they want, youpon, green briars, honyesuckle and such.

With the hunting pressure they get here, it doesnt take them long to realize they arer safer in the cut overs.

The only issue I have personaly with coyotes is when you are looking for your down deer, they are looking for it also. There's been times when people have met up with them at the site of the dead game, that leaves for a scary moment.

Chet, I thought you guys practiced the three s's up there? ;)

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A couple of my most memorable experiences in the woods is coming within a few feet and eye ball to eye ball with a grey wolf in Michigan's western U.P. In one instance there were 3 of them in the dark and in the other only one in deep snow, but a real thrill and no camera along. 

   I had to shoot a wolf about 3 months ago. Dang bugger had my best dog by the neck. If it wern't for his twin brother body slamming the bugger and knocking him off I wouldn't have had enough time to bring the shotgun up.  It's amazing what a 1oz slug will do to a wolf at 25 yards. Only had to put 6 stitches in the poor dog.
   We have thousands of wolves up here. They are very hard to trap and have lots of food. An average wolf is around 120lbs and I've seen some pushing 180lbs.  They are nice to listen to when they start howling to each other. 

Yes, "The Call of the Wild", great to listen to.

I'm not sure if its true but I've heard shooting coyotes makes her breed faster. Is this true?

Not if yer shootin the breeders.

Thats the trick alright - when you shoot the female leader of the pack the next one or two in line get to breed , and they don't waste any time.

Well, I suppose thats a start... :D

That's more coyotes then in all of NB.  ::)

That might be enough to clear out a 5 or 6 mile radius here.

They must be a little thin up your way, Jeff. ;)

Farmerdoug

Was that a one or two day hunt?  If around here probably a morning hunt.

You dont dare wait to track a deer. You better knock em down, or dog em until you catch up because if you wait to let em lay down like we were all taught to do, the coyotes will have it before you.

You fellas must not be hunting them to hard if they are that thick in Michigan. You guys have way more guns than we do. ;)

They don't call them wily for nothin

I went with a friend this evening to sit in some ground blinds to shoot some rabbits this evening. Right at dusk, after seeing no bunnies at all, the coyotes were in between us less than 50 yds (?) from us. Talk about a hair raising few moments. There was an alpha male howling like a wolf, normaly they just yip, but this one was sure of his place in dogdom. I'd have rather shot them than the bunnies.

I have lost my share of deer to the yotes.  In fact they will start sneaking in at the sound of gunshots.  I trap coons all summer and fall in live traps to protect the sweet corn.  It is a losing battle sometimes though.  I seen coyotes several times after I shot a coon.  I heave the coons into the field across the ditch in back for the buzzards.  Well this summer after I tossed a coon I heard a noise and saw a yote with the coon in his mouth running away.  The coon would disappear within a couple of hours all summer.  The poor buzzards had slim pickings this summer. :D

Farmerdoug

Last year I heard a story about a woman calling the forest ranger on a guy who was 'shooting at a herd of deer'  It was really a bunch of coyotes out in a field, the woman was just blind  :D  We used to get them coming into eat out of our dogs food dish, I've only seen 2 in the woods hunting though.  I had an electronic call and was goin to try hunting them more but amazingly it grew legs on me  >:(  There are getting to be a LOT of foxes here too.

In NH the season doesn't end ,and from jan. 1st to mar. 1st you can night hunt em.

A friend of mine is trying to get the coyotes to start coming in to a timed feeder dispensing dog food. No luck so far. They must know my friend. ;D

He should try putting table scraps out there too, or with mating season coming up some scent lure.

I saw some interesting coyote behavior. One crossed the highway and moved into the brush before the next one came out, they must have learned this to limit road kill. Not stupid.

There is a farmer about four miles east of the little town of Duxbury, MN where I am working and about 15 miles west of Sandstone, MN that has a herd of about 60 Buffalo in a pasture. It was on the news this week about how the Buffalo somehow got out thru a gate and went on a rampage in the local area. Neighbors had to shoot two bulls that got agressive. One guy said he felt sorry for the farmer, but he had no choice. The owner said the wolves had been pestering the herd and that was probably why they could not get them back in the pasture.

Just to the east of Duxbury and across the St. Croix River is Danbury, WI. There is a large logger and farmer that has over 2000 head of cattle. In some years he got paid as much as $20,000 in a year for livestock killed by the wolves. Finally, he got fed up and told the state he was not raising cattle to feed wolves and was not going to take any more money in compensation for wolf kills. Said he was going another direction and not to bother him anymore. The state never said anymore nor did they check up to see "which direction he going."   ;D  I don't know how sucessful his new direction has been as there are still way too many in the area. I saw two run across the road just south of his farm in the middle of the morning.

I was surprised to see an interview with a wolf expert last year where they asked him his thoughts on taking the wolf off the endangered species list. He said that it was probably about 10 to 15 years too late.   :o

i think all the wolves should be relocated to San Fransisco, Seattle, Houston, and Central Park.  problem solved.

elsewhere shoot on site.  I've seen what feral dogs can do, and wolves are much more efficient than dogs....

Houston has it's share of coyotes, bobcats, feral dogs and cats, and if you believe the source, a cougar or two.  Wolves would just add to the variety. 8)

I have been told that when you start shooting coyotes, the other females ALL take up breeding.  Then you get a big spike in the population, and later they will go back to a balanced number.  In the meantime, the pack spreads out and starts up new packs.  Otherwise, as a pack only the alphas breed.  I dont know for sure, other than theres a LOT more around than there used to be.   I have to wonder if X# of animals killed by wolves is better that more numbers killed by huge numbers of coyotes.  The wolves go after the coyotes first, to keep the food supply up for themselves. 

does anybody else hear The circle of life playing in the head right now?

john.....ya der.  Ya have me mind going in circles right now...... ;D

I think wolves have a valuable role to play in nature.  That being said...I recieved these by e-mail.



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Makes you wonder what the photographer was doing when all this was going on.

I have a few fattened moose around the woodlot they can take if they need more meet.  ;D These dang things need thinning out, a few won't be missed.

  Put um in the freezer Swamp ...  As good eatin' as comes around

Marcel, you eat wolves?

Chet just called me from the road. He was on 69 heading from Sagola on the way to his continued training in Alpena. He was driving in a heavy snow with about 10 inches on the road when something ran in front of him. Two somethings. He almost hit them both, but they split and one stopped on one side of the road panting, and the other stopped on the other side of the road with Chet stopped between them.  He almost hit a wolf chasing a deer, and from what Chet could tell, a large seemingly healthy deer.  He tried to get a photo with his cell phone but doubts they came out due to the heavy snow falling.  Apparently the chase must have been going on awhile as it takes some doing to get a deer to panting. Hopefully the Deer got enough of a breather there to get away.  Broad daylight even. >:(

Wow, that would have been a sight. 8)

About 20 years ago dad cut some cedar in a  small stand and the deer moved in for the tops. In no time, a pack of loose dogs got running the deer and using the deer yard trails to hunt them down. They were coming in from Blaine. I'm not real certain about whose dogs they were, but I know from experience they let their dogs run loose on a lot of Native reserves. I've confronted some pretty vicious stray dogs on winter trails. That pretty much fixed that little herd of deer that winter.

When I started raising bottle calves 15 years ago, I heard all sorts of stories about coyotes killing cows, calves, etc....  Over a 5 year period I raised better than 200 bottle calves up to about 700 pounds.  Never had a single instance of a calf being attacked or killed by a coyote even tho the song dogs in front of our house would raise the hair on the back of your neck some nights.  The only livestock attack we have had was when a stray beagle and an Australian cow dog packed-up and attacked our goat 50 yards from our house....

I ain't sayin' the coyotes and wolves are not a problem.  I'm sure they are are in some places.  But around here, I think coyotes get blamed for a lot of problems caused by stray/feral dogs that pack up in the spring and fall. And the coyotes sure ain't hurtin' the deer population around here either.  I have to jam the brakes to avoid hitting deer at least a couple times a week....

I agree with Dan.  All of the folks who want to "save the (fill in species of choice)" should be willing to host them in their own downtown or suburban homes. Not pass a law that someone on a farm or ranch 2000 miles away should shoulder the responsibility....

Warren

Coyotes don't bother cows here that I've ever heard. It's always dogs that get shot for cow chasing. Been quite a few of'm shot for that to in fact.

I vote we trap all our wolves all our coyotes and send them to swamp donkey.

I'm already hosting the coyotes, they don't seem to eat enough moose if at all. Then if I got all those timber wolves, they'd kill off the coyotes. Can't win.  ::)

Seen a nice little fox today along a field edge, it's that time of year for them. Like watching them slide on their back in the February-March snow. ;)

  Ya can send um to me .. as long as prior to shiping you make sure they have stopped breathing ...  ;D

Quote from: Warren on February 25, 2007, 06:55:35 PM

. . .  And the coyotes sure ain't hurtin' the deer population around here either.  I have to jam the brakes to avoid hitting deer at least a couple times a week....

I agree with Dan.  All of the folks who want to "save the (fill in species of choice)" should be willing to host them in their own downtown or suburban homes. Not pass a law that someone on a farm or ranch 2000 miles away should shoulder the responsibility....

Warren

FWIW - Some time back I read a piece about chasing deer ( or any animal ) outa the road when you come barreling down the road on them - hit the car horn good and long. The noise scares the puddin out of them and they amscray.  Its been working for me for a few years and I've even gotten a possum to put one foot in front of the other - just not too quick.

Bill,

Either our deer are deef, or they can't hear the horn over the headlights  :D :D :D    They never seem to move until you come close to a complete stop.  I used to joke about them being Osama Bin Whitetail and the bambi suicide squad due to the large number that jump in front of cars around here.   Until a friend was killed in an deer/vehicle accident a couple years ago.... :( :( :(    Not so funny now...

Warren

We don't have any wolves here but we do have a lot of coyotes.  I second the opinion that most of the damage done to lovestock and deer is more the work of dogs, both feral and domestic, than the coyotes.  Their howling at night does wake me up on occasion.  I just wish they would take on the dogs.

Quote from: OneWithWood on February 27, 2007, 02:50:58 PM
We don't have any wolves here but we do have a lot of coyotes. I second the opinion that most of the damage done to lovestock and deer is more the work of dogs, both feral and domestic, than the coyotes. Their howling at night does wake me up on occasion. I just wish they would take on the dogs.

WE used to have a lot of dogs running around until the coyotes( red wolves) came around. Now we have none!!! They all got eaten. Some of the neighors dogs also. Even some calves whose mothers were too stupid to protect them.

Stonebroke

 I am going to ask another what's it question .... :-\    what a feral dog ....  ???

   That's a domestic animal (dog in this case) gone wild.
Mark

A British newspaper (of all places) report that the people of Kenora have been asked to stop feeding deer as they are 'luring' wolves closer to town. The overseas paper reports,

Wolves are normally very shy, but lured by the prospect of fattened deer meat they have regularly been spotted inside the city limits of Kenora in Ontario.

******************
Maybe they should ship some down out to SD to help with his nuisance moose problems. :D

The coyotes love to eat red fox too. ::)  The grey ones just run up a tree to escape the yotes. 8)

Farmerdoug

The coyotes are very hard on the sheep ranchers here. Most have gone to putting guard lamas or dogs in the herds but still lose some. I don't think they're hurting the deer population much, I lost all of my new sugar maples in the back yard to them.

I'd rather lose a pet kitty to a coyote than a bunch of trees to a deer  >:(  It takes years to grow a tree.    :-\

 Here in Southern Minnesota there is getting to be more and more coyotes. My dad and several of his buddies are retired and hunt them all winter long. They spot and stalk or just walk sections to locate them. The problem with the coyotes around here is they are finding more and more that have mange. Some of them are so bad you can't believe they can make it through the winter from lack of fur. My Dad skins most that he feels are worth something and sends them up to North American Fur Exchange. He got $72 for one of them but usually averages about $20 apiece. The count so far this year is 77, last year they shot 80 something. Not bad for some old farts. Better watch what I say I'm 40 and my Dad is 67 and I think he could walk circles around me in the snow.
I have been feeding the deer at the neighber ladys house. She has 200 acres she lets me hunt on. I have been hunting for shed horns behind her house with no luck. Stopped there yesterday to plow her drive and she showed me the shed she picked up in her back yard. Beautiful 5 on a side. If the other side matched I would say about a 150 inch whitetail. That is the third shed she has found to my zero and here is the kicker, she is 87 years old.

.........150 inch...... ??? ???

or score 150 ?

Dat lady prolly finds them cause she isn't like us, sittin in front a da 'puter....... ;D

A cousin of mine shot a coyote in his back yard a couple of weeks ago.  He had just showered and was standing at the bathroom sink brushing his teeth when he looked out the bathroom window and spotted the coyote at the edge of the woods about 50 yards from his house.

He promptly threw his toothbrush in the sink, ran to his den, grabbed his .223 and ran out into the backyard and shot the coyote. His wife said that she was glad there was no one around to see this madman running back and forth through their house carrying a rifle, stark naked and foaming at the mouth. The 'yote must have been a little startled by the spectacle, too, to hang around long enough to be shot.  :D :D     

That's funny.. :D

But not unusual, few weeks ago I woke up to hear them almost in our back yard. I like to keep them honest and on their toes if they feel too comfortable near the house. I went out with the a-3 and unloaded what was left in the clip. Thought to myself thank goodness we have no close neighbors to see that. ;D

Thats good to keep them on they toes and onstill a little fear of man in them. Around here they stalk the hunters in the fall.

Stonebroke

I didn't read all 4 pages, but around here, it's SSS.  BWW

  OK .. BW   whats the  SSS stand for ...  ::) ???

here's a guess. Shoot ,shovel and shut up. The ranchers favorite motto.

Stonebroke

   Thanks ... sure works for me ...  :) 

It's like Vegas, What goes on here stays here. So no one is the wiser.

Stonebroke

I resemble dat (SSS), but I will admit to unloadin on hickory limbs.......... ;D

Quote from: farmerdoug on March 02, 2007, 02:57:24 PM
The coyotes love to eat red fox too. ::)  The grey ones just run up a tree to escape the yotes. 8)

Farmerdoug

We have no shortage of red fox, but I do agree the coyotes give them a hard time. There competing for the same food, mostly rodents. Although, coyotes do take some deer as we know. Both coyotes and white tails are not even native to this area since less than 100 years ago. I don't often see a deer track in my area in the winter. I can go to areas not far away where they yard up. In the summer a group of 3 or 4 is a site here, other places 20-50 in farm fields can be counted because the locals feed them. You go any distance away from the river up Tobique and there isn't a deer track in winter. Deer migrate here as well from the heads of rivers, down stream in the winter months, then back in summer. Most of the mature softwoods have been harvested, and that killed more deer by far than the coyote population could ever eat. Not to mention the poaching going on in some regions. Deer have an easier time in southern NB because of milder winters and not as much snow, if any at all. Fishing with my grandfather on a lot of remote lakes. You couldn't walk hardly in some of the boreal under growth if it weren't for deer paths to follow along the shore lines. It would certainly play you out before you got back to the pickup. ;D

My wife laughs at me for not putting screen on the bathroom window ,but it's the best shootin place in the house !

  I trap coons all summer and fall in live traps to protect the sweet corn.  It is a losing battle sometimes though.  I seen coyotes several times after I shot a coon.                  way to protect sweet corn--put up two electric fence wires--one 4 in off the ground--one 11 in off ground--with the fenceposts inside the wire--toward the corn--cause friend that taught me this--had coon break down other stalks against the fence to short it out--so have other corn stalks out of the way---

Anyone hear about the coyote that walked into a Quizno's in downtown Chicago the other day?
Got itself stuck in a display cooler. :D

Yup, saw that on the TV. He was happy till they drug him out with the dog catcher noose. Wonder what they did with him?

Claimed they were gonna treat it and then release it. ::)

It has been treated and released.

 ;D :D Reminds me of that little coyote that Walt Disney filmed in California in the 60's or 70's. He was one lucky and very smart coyote.  :D :D 8)

Oh, talked to the neighbors about their pet silver fox. He wasn't tamed and couldn't be trusted around the kids. He'd bite. His son got it from someone who raised foxes, it was a pup when he got it. They had him loose one day and he got struck and killed on the road.

"Man Among Wolves" will air on National Geographic Channel, Monday, April 16, at 9 p.m. EDT/PDT.

Well lets see...out of the loft window I spot a coyote.  Plug in the range off the lazer, temperature, and wind direction off the roof mounted weather station.  Get the critter sighted in on the custom 36X target Leupold and launch a 308 projectile...instant red mist.  I can spot the varmits out to about 7 miles but I can only touch them to about 1,200 yards.

Tain't see one in a few days...may have to turn my attention to this varmint.  And iffen I remember correctly Patty is really wanting a new coat. 

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"Never Cry Wolf" is a good read about wolves. I wouldn't take it as 100 % factual, but it was based on "some" experiences of the author, Farley Mowat, who worked in the north for the Canadian Wildlife Service to find the relationship between wolf and caribou. Another perspective can be read from "Wolves in Russia: Anxiety throughout the ages", by Will Graves. You might or might not be surprised from what he says as well.

I've read where some say that the last two things on earth will be a cockroach and a coyote :o.  And Larry, that's some mighty fine shooting :)

Hear the coyotes weekly....keep them and coons away from cabin...our dog helps.......used to live trap coons...after releasing one in nearby foresty..it turn on me...that was my last humane coon move...hollowpoint to the head now

Coyote pelts down to $5..less than half that  in 2008...shows more coyotes...and more hunters/trappers

We have been overrun with coyotes here in Saskatchewan.  DNR has put out a $20 bounty on them and we just have to submit the four paws.  This way the pelts can be marketed and sold.  Nobody buying them though.  I have shot 32 of them since earl fall when the bounty was announced.  Have given all the pelts away and sold the paws.

As far as coyotes, and wolves too for that matter, I agree with the SSS method, regardless of the time of year!

Bounties on coyotes, here in the Maritimes at least, only worsened the problem. In the 80's they had a bounty in NS and the population exploded in their face. The problem with coyotes is their breeding is compensatory. NB didn't implement a bounty, they watched to see what the end effect would be in Nova Scotia and to see if the known studies at the time would be verified. They were. "If you remove some individuals, you create space for more to have food and opportunities for territories. So coyotes are going to breed even more to compensate for that loss. So there's just no point," says Jean-Michel Devink, of the NB Department of Natural Resources.


That being said I heard a group of 3 coyotes today making their presence known for 5 minutes, then all was quiet again. ;D

I'm a little surprised that I don't see or hear more coyotes where we live in W.Va.  I have only seen one over the past four years and that was in a remote, completely wooded area.  We have lots of deer and other small prey for them to hunt but I never hear or see them.

On the other hand, where we live in Texas is completely surrounded by housing and refineries and we hear coyotes on a regular basis. We do have several hundred acres of prarie and low trees near by but not what I would think of as good hunting ground for wildlife.  It must be tho'.  They are eating something.  Stray cats don't last long.

Not much for deer in my area and never was as far back as I can remember. Deer and moose don't mix very well. Up along the Tobique river are concentrations of deer because people feed them. Go back in the woods away from the settlement and scarce as hens teeth. There are also a lot less moose there. The natives all come down here from the local reserve at Tobique after the regular season closes and bag a moose or two. Can't be too hard on them when you see 8 or more in a bunch and the woodlot is all tramped up.

Isle Royale in Michigan has wolves and moose.

Here is a page on a study of their interaction.

http://www.wolfmoose.mtu.edu

Here is a page with a photo on the island and lots of moose antlers and a group of folks. ;D

http://www.d.umn.edu/~tbeery

PBS has a story on the Isle Royale study tonight after American Experience, titled “The Wolf and Moose Study of Isle Royale”.

When most of your yearly income is from the hunting industry, you get a diffrent perspective. I have seen wolves in action many times, I have also seen our elk and deer populations decrease considerably. All you have to do is look at the harvest percentages since the wolves were re-introduced. Any time you let a predator at the top of the food chain go without any control they will always flourish. We went to a draw only on mountain lions and limited wolf tags this past year, combine those two and they have a devastating impact on the elk and deer herds. We had to harvest two mountian lions in town last year. The wolves not only harvest alot of the elk and deer, they change there breeding, and grazing habits which has a more devestating impact. Just go and bugle during the rut in some of more populated areas of wolves and you'll see my point. A huge part of the elk being able to reproduce is there ability to communicate, in some areas they are so reluctant to bugle. Just my two cents.

Well it's a hard balance. Men with guns and bows and livelihoods at stake and wolves with their bare teeth and bellies to fill.  ;) Touchy subject depending on which side of the fence you stand on. My grandfather also made a living hunting and fishing. The woodland caribou died out in New Brunswick a century ago and it wasn't wolves and coyotes to killed them it was tuberculosis in addition to brain worm from invading deer that were not native. They also infect the moose. Many of the guides at the time have photos of dieing caribou and moose. Also around here an area will either be dominated my moose or deer. Which ever dominates, the other is scarce. In my area the moose are too thick. ;D I too have seen dying moose from brain worm, it ain't pretty.

Deer (6 point buck) eaten by coyotes in an area very active with coyotes, 11/09.



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Saw this article on coyote taking in Saskatchewan

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2010/02/19/sk-coyote-program-1002.html

4 months into the bounty system nets 18,000 coyotes. That's a lot of paws.  :o

I got a chuckle out of part of the article beenthere referenced above:

"Some wildlife and environmental groups have expressed skepticism that the bounty would be effective at eliminating the coyotes that prey on farm animals, claiming that only the weaker, slower coyotes would be killed."

Dem 'yotes is fast.  But ain't seen one yet, what could outrun a .223 at 3,200 ft per second ... :D :D :D

-w-

Seems to be real successful so far at killing them. :D

I wonder what will take place population-wise when it's over, for the next decade? My guess is this is not the first shootout. ;)

Farmers are already complaining they cant get enough poison for the gophers  ::)

Never gonna be satisfied.  ::)

We are having a small competition between about 24 people locally in the month of March to see who can submit the most paws.  I will be going out to a sweet spot in the morning with my 25-06.  Got just over 400 rounds of reloads loaded just the way I like.  ;) I got a honeyhole for yotes all primed and ready.  Have been feeding them to get em coming in. I just checked my game cam today and I must have about 20 of em coming and going currently but they'll be thinned out considerably by this time tomorow. Will post some updates when I remember to. 

Brad.

Well I sure ain't gonna win this little competition as I only got three so far this month.  'Yotes are not coming in to the bait right now.  I think this is due to the spring melting.  I shot all three of mine running across fields.  Guess they are exploring and moving about.  Must be coming on mating season too they are yodeling like crazy all day and all night.  Guess it's that time of the year.

MINNESOTA DNR FILES PETITION TO HAVE MINNESOTA GRAY WOLF STATUS REFLECT MINNESOTA REALITY

For those of you who enjoy tracking wolf news . . .

http://news.dnr.state.mn.us/index.php/2010/03/17/dnr-files-petition-to-have-minnesota-gray-wolf-status-reflect-minnesota-reality/#more-43522

And this case just in from Alaska....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35913715/ns/us_news-life

Last night there was something about 'yotes being in downtown New York

I'm thinkin that could be my idea of irony  -  DanG 'yotes hanging out someplace that don't allow guns nor hunting

;D

Bill, that pretty interesting about the NYC coyotes.  A couple grizzly's would really change the New York City folks idea of gun control and preservation.  ::)

Wolf tracks confirmed in Cheboygan County.

DNRE and USDA Wildlife Services Division have confirmed at least two sets of
wolf tracks in Cheboygan County in Michigan's lower Peninsula. A local landowner reported seeing three sets recently. DNRE says this may be described as a
pack.

DNRE listserve

Quote from: Bill on March 26, 2010, 09:05:41 PM
Last night there was something about 'yotes being in downtown New York

I'm thinkin that could be my idea of irony  -  DanG 'yotes hanging out someplace that don't allow guns nor hunting

;D

I was part of a group setting up portable kitchens in the Brooklyn Naval Yards a couple days after 9/11.  When we finished the set up (about 11:00 pm), we had to wait for a police escort back to NJ.  While we were waiting in our cars, we were watching the rats scurry around under the sodium lights.  The thought that went thru my mind was:  "They don't have a rat problem in NYC.  They have a shortage of young boys with .22 caliber rifles to clean out the rats..."

When my cousin and I were 12 years old, we could have filled a 5 gal bucket full of rats in less than an hour with the number we watched running around that night in the Naval Yards.    Truly a "target rich" environment...

-w-

In a presentation a couple years back, Brian Roell (MDNRE wolf coordinator) told me that they had confirmed wolf tracks and pictures in Cheboygan County.

I live in southern Cheboygan county.  We saw what I'm sure were two wolves three maybe four years ago now.  They came out of a woodline to harass a pair of sandhills.  When I 1st saw them I wondered what a couple deer were doing chasing cranes.  Then I saw their long tails and realized they were big canines.  They were about  1/4 mile away from us in the field behind my parents house.  They were way to big to be coyotes.  I've seen enough deer and coyotes in that same spot the last forty years that I'd never mistake one for the other.

A couple recent news articles from MDNRE

Gladwin Man Guilty in Wolf Killing. A Gladwin man was sentenced in District
Court in St. Ignace for killing a wolf last muzzle-loader season. He will pay
$500 in fines and costs plus $1,500 in restitution. Also, he will forfeit his
hunting privileges for one year.

Wolf Pup Captured and Released in Northern Lower Peninsula. The
Department of Natural Resources and Environment (DNRE) has reported
trapping, tagging and releasing a wolf pup in Cheboygan County. DNRE is
hoping to catch and release an adult wolf after attaching a radio-collar to it.
This effort is aimed at gathering information on distribution, activities and
population numbers in the Lower Peninsula. The pup was a male and weighed
23 lbs.

DNRE listserve

Last week I saw one of those fluff stories on a Minneapolis TV news show with pictures of a coyote that had gotten trapped in a soccer net on a school playground in the city. The report said that animal control was called and everyone was happy that the coyote was released unharmed.  ::)

I wonder if those happy people knew that coyote was in the neighborhood to kill and eat someones pet dog or cat. Oh sure he could have been after some gophers, rats or mice, but those coyotes in the cities mostly feed on unwary dogs and cats.

So if I were to ad lib another ending to this feel good story, it could have ended with the coyote showing his gratitude by killing and carrying away one of the spectators pets they were out walking.  :)

I had an uncle that lived in a Chicago suburb and he told me that the number one call for animal control in the city of Chicago was coyotes killing and eating someones pet right in their backyard. I have also seen coyotes eating road kill right along a busy highway in the city of Winona, MN at night. Them coyotes are everywhere now and seem to be thriving.

With all the feral cats I see roaming around in the headlights of the car in the morning, the coyotes can eat them to.  I wish they would clean up on the coons while they're at it. ;D  Just don't bother my neighborly fox. ;)

   In the same valley as my woodlot was a chicken operation.  In the fall they would slaughter about 3-4k chickens. This being a bush farm they threw the gut piles out in the field. after 20+ years of this the population of yotes and wolves grew very large. 
   It was the only place on earth where you would see 3-4 bears along side 20+ wolves along side 20+ yotes with wolverine and lynx. On top of the pile was eagles and ravens.
   The operation closed a couple years back but not after the size of the packs grew to unsustainable levels.  In the last 4 years my cousin has trapped over 50 yotes and I have shot 44 so far. The wolves eventually split into 2 packs. They stay up in the mountains for the most part, but every spring they move through the valley hunting. There are over 50 wolves in the primary pack.  I managed to get a good look at the Alpha male this past spring when he came into camp and scared the heck out of me.
   I have seen over 1000 wolves in my years here in the north but I never saw one that big. His tracks were so big that the toe of my boots fit inside of his track. I figured he weighed in around 250lbs.  I was so impressed with him that I forgot I had the 22mag in my hand.  My  biggest bush dog is an akita/chow mix that weighs 140lbs, he was trying to crawl into the bed to hide. He knew there was no way he was going to win this fight.

As far as I am concerned they could trap all the wolves for da U.P. and put them down in Lansing in all the wolf lovers back yards.
I can't even put my dogs out side to pee without watching them.

Daughter was out riding her horse in the indoor Tues about 7 p.m. I was cleaning stalls she started yelling. Went to see what was up there stood one looking at her not 50 ft. from the barn.

Quote from: Pudge on August 13, 2010, 04:59:12 PM
As far as I am concerned they could trap all the wolves for da U.P. and put them down in Lansing in all the wolf lovers back yards.
I can't even put my dogs out side to pee without watching them.

Daughter was out riding her horse in the indoor Tues about 7 p.m. I was cleaning stalls she started yelling. Went to see what was up there stood one looking at her not 50 ft. from the barn.

What? No gun in the barn?

Took it out but it's goin back in there after bear season. Don't want no shooting around here close till I get a shot at a bear here in a couple of weeks.

Is that big belly dragger still around? if so I sure hope ya get a crack at um.

Yep so that is why I don't want to be shootin at varmits, figure then he 'might' hang around instead of headin for the swamp just before season. I don't want Don Jon lettin his dogs out on my property either told him that a few weeks back without lettin him know I pulled a tag. He is the type to let off his dogs on the road and say'oh gee I have no control where my dogs go' which they don't but they do know where all the private land is.
That big boy got tired of running last weekend he stopped an started swatin dogs, guess they carried a few out of the woods.
So I plan to used the 7mm fully loaded, takin plenty of extra's and the 357 the same way just in case he doesn't go down with one in the head.....an comes to see me  :odadgum you, Charlie!.

Da ya need a horse for bait, reason I'm askin is Dale has one that has something wrong with it and there going to have to put him down, the big cat zoo will take it but they have no way to get it there, right now there only other option is to take that walk in the woods.

Good luck with the bear huntin'  ;D

I won't show Jill what ya said about the horse Bob  :D  :D  :D

Geez Bob I couldn't use the horse for bait. I could just see Katy if I brought it home then shot the dang thing.....to shoot coyotes off of it.

Got me a coyote tonight tho. Called that bad boy in with a varmint call. Didn't think it was workin cause it didn't sound like any rabbit I ever heard. But when the doe left the field with her tail in the air I figured something was up. That 7 mm talked to him he wasn't impressed 8) 8)

Pudge, good for you getting the coyote. 

The horse issue was takin care of, way ta go on the yote, ya should get Art over some day ta show um how its done ;D

Here is something that I picked up from a hunting forum:  http://biggameforever.org/big-game-crisis.php

Don't even try to argue that point with a wolf lover. They have blinders on.

Bay City Man Pleads Guilty in Wolf Killing.

A Bay City man has pled guilty to the illegal killing of three wolves in
Mackinac County in January. He was sentenced to 365 days in jail, with 90 days to be served immediately and the remaining time suspended if all terms of his 24-month probation are met. He was also ordered to pay $3,000 in restitution for the wolves,$590 for the replacement of tracking collars and $1,500 in fines and court costs. His hunting privileges were revoked for three
years and his rifle was condemned.

DNR listserve

Do you know how he got caught... did da fool man bring da collar home  ??? 

Whether it's wolves or wild dogs, there are times when you do what you gotta do and keep your mouth shut.   :-\ 

Most of the time these guys get caught from running their mouths.

I believe that's what happened and the word got out. The Michigan CO's and the Feds don't let up on such cases either.

Like most of those cases the shooter usually runs his mouth off to the wrong people.

Somebody shot one about a mile from the house and must notta told a soul, because they never caught the "bad guy".

 :D :D
'cuz you are the only one that knows about it?       



'just kiddin' :)

Not I... But everybody in town (small town) thinks they know who done it (most people are happy). But nobody can prove anything and most want them (wolves) gone so it remains a mystery.

Growing up we had a gamewarden as a neighbour, boy did I learn a lot from him  :P  It aint really complicated, listen, listen and  :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

I found this clip tough to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMC7aZNXnL8

Tough clip jeff when I see this kinda stuff I wonder how those dinosaurs behaved I bet you could hear them for miles duking it out with thicker armor.  All n all an amazing video.

Quote from: Larry on April 16, 2007, 07:45:34 PM
  And iffen I remember correctly Patty is really wanting a new coat.

Yes I am! Two of the prettiest coats I own are coyote and silver fox. A nice red fox jacket would sure look good on me!!   ;D   Keep up the good work Larry!

When I lived west of Pueblo, CO a few years ago the local policy with regard to yotes was, SSS, (Shoot'em - Shovel'em - Shutup). Worked for my neighbor who lost 4 calves one spring. I had llamas which helped to keep them away from my area.

Some folks use donkeys up here to keep the coyotes out of their sheep. I know my little donkey won't even let my dog in the pen with her!

Quote from: Patty on May 27, 2011, 11:53:43 AM
Some folks use donkeys up here to keep the coyotes out of their sheep. I know my little donkey won't even let my dog in the pen with her!

On the farm coyotes would kill 10 to 15 sheep a year :o I bought an Alpaca, it was amazing seeing her round the sheep up, chase them in the barn and go after the coyotes 8) 5 yrs straight and never lost a farm animal again 8)

I am seeing a lot of Donkeys as livestock guardians, easy care as well.

Llamas are getting cheaper here and are taking place of the Alpacas for their size against the Dingos/Wild dogs, they need shearing but and it can be hard to get your working dogs in to muster the livestock.

On our farm we use Maremma dogs, at the moment they are a 3.5 mile round trip on a quad to go and feed them, they cost me $50 week to feed/husbandry/fuel, but they take on pigs, dingos, foxs, eagles (they lost interest in crows) and they get along with our working dogs.

Do you guys bait for coyotes, wolves? At work we are 1/2 way through our aerial baiting program for dingos, we have about 12000 baits still to go out this weekend and have 8 1/2 tonne (38,000 baits) of meat drying in shearing sheds ready to be poisoned Monday. Baiting is a great tool for us, we still have to strategically trap and shoot bait shy dogs.

The wolf is destroying deer hunting here in the U.P. of Michigan.

This year I'm seeing a lot of does coming out on the 107 highway to Juniper and Napadogan. I saw where one got hit Wednesday or so. And I had to slow up for 3 deer, separate locations, on the edge of the pavement that day. I never see deer on that road.

Quote from: Yoopersaw on May 28, 2011, 11:17:21 AM
The wolf is destroying deer hunting here in the U.P. of Michigan.

No need to convince me that they are a contributing factor. I won't blame them exclusively as their "Handlers" have a little to do with it along with the other predators we have. There are some that won't believe it, or don't care. Personally I think a healthy deer population and the economic boost it gives the U.P. far out weighs the environmental "balance" the wolves might add.

I've lost plenty of calves to coyotes over the years, bottle calves were especially easy targets for the buggers, they even killed a few in huts right under the yard lights, 20 feet from my house, pets were always missing, had problems with feral dogs as well, couldn't imagine what wolves were like.   

All of these "wolf lovers" I don't have a problem with, the answer is simple, just attach a collar and tether to one wolf and the other end to an animal lover and then everyone will know where the wolf is at all times and what he's doing, save a lot of money spent on research as well, it would be called "first hand" and would eliminate a lot of problems for everyone, same goes for grizzlies and mountain lions, maybe toss a few extra "researches" into the tethered group per animal for grizzlies, they are a little harder to keep track of so they need more animal lovers to help them out.

Also I'm not against animal lovers, I think they all should be registered as such, then when crop damage, livestock loss, vehicle damage and about a 100 other expenses occur every year because of these loved animals they can be notified and forced to cover all costs associated with their dearly beloved critters, the more lovers there are the more that can pay damages to the victims.    There's no need to bother individuals with the burden. 

Randy,

We have a pretty healthy coyote population in our part of KY.  I raised about 300 bottle calves over a 3 to 4 year period.  Never lost a single animal to coyotes.  I did have one depredation incident.  A beagle and an Australian Shepherd attacked the goat that I put in with the calves to trim the multiflora rose.   That lasted about 90 seconds...  And the goat survived...

In our area of KY, in the spring and fall, the stray and feral dogs tend to "pack up" and chase deer and livestock.  I don't deny the impact that coyotes have (like ZERO ground hogs).  However, I think the coyotes get blamed for a lot damage done by stray dogs as well... 

Most folks do not want to acknowledge that "Ole Lassie" is still not that far removed from their wolf ancestors...

Warren

Dogs have been proven deer chasers up here as well as chase and attack cattle. The neighbor's (former) own dog killed a calve in his herd when it was being born, biting it's face and kneck. Dogs chased a deer herd here one winter that yarded up when dad cut cedar. They were coming in from Maine. I can't place blame on whose dogs but the truth lies somewhere between stray dogs from reservation residents and regular folks letting dogs run with other neighbors dogs. I know one dog my mother's uncle trapped 30 years ago and sent to the fur trade as a timber wolf. Some reservations up here have stray dogs that go mad and bite residents in the streets, at times it's a serious issue. Another neighbor has his dairy cattle out on the land in summer/fall and we have lots of coyotes around but never bother them. At times you can here them yip and howl. My uncle had cattle that roamed like deer back in the woods and along the woods roads away from the fields and never had a cow killed by any coyotes or bear.

havent seen any wolves here yet, lots of stray cats and dogs.

I have heard hennepin county had a bounty on feral cats, at 50 cnts a ear.    shurbune county needs one,  as long as they leave peanut alone.
few years ago at parents house out between buffalo and montrose, their were tons of 'yotes and red fox runnin.  between 2 farmers hunting them, pelts were nailed to a barn.  (kinda funny in a way their neighbor was an animal rights activist) i think between them harvesting , and the crow river flooded.  now are all gone.
that their is way too many wolves up north.   

Dogs generally devour or savagely attach animals, usually from the rear and once they have the animal down they tend to go for the back quarters first, at least the dogs of larger species I've been around, a coyote will kill and then roll the skin back and open up the soft tissue first, kind of like gutting a deer, they usually start in the stomach area and its a much more neat kill site, a pack of dogs are generally very viscous and the damage is extreme to the carcass.   I lived for almost 20 years in a very prone site, woods almost surrounding my buildings on two sides and water very close by, about 500 feet from my buildings. Just the way the land laid it was prime coyote habitat, in fact at one time I have counted almost 30 coyotes at one time laying less than 400 feet from my buildings sunning themselves while watching their young play.   I've had the dnr officials out and they determined coyotes had done the killing by my house during the night, I already knew that but wanted to register a complaint anyhow [like it'd do any good].   I've watched plenty of times coyotes try to cut a smaller animal out of the herd, usually a smaller calf in a group of calves, say about 400 lbs but seldom did they ever succeed with something that large.  Anything smaller were kept close to the buildings at all times and never made out on pasture, not until they were at least 400lbs did they see much grass and for that reason. 

The thing we noticed most was about the time the young were born is when we had the most problems, also if the crews that came through coyote hunting that winter before killed a lot of older animals, females especially we had more problems at the next go around for when their young was born, I always attributed to killing off the older breeding females and the younger ones not really knowing for sure how to feed their new young so they sought out an easy target, but thats just my observation, and it might not be accurate at all.   

We had a lot of problems with the feral dogs packing up and going after the older stock we kept on another farm, not doing killing as much as tearing them up and chasing them to the point they'd injure themselves on something by running into things while eluding pursuit, those seldom came near the buildings at all, they were used to being shot at in the neighborhood and avoided people even more so than coyotes, at least around our area anyhow.  But we also had a pond over at that farm for watering cattle and the dogs would sometimes run them into deeper water and try to jump on their heads and drown them, a few times they were successful but most times not.    We did have a bull one time that aimed his kicks and was deadly, he killed one of our own dogs, the family pet and a few feral dogs as well but those are very rare to have, he would always look as he kicked and aim for the center if their head right between the eye's and once he had them knocked senseless he'd head butt them into something solid and crush them to death, we kept him around for years just for that reason but he got too dangerous and mean to even handle so we sold him.

Interesting post Randy, I regularly get predation reports of dingoes/wild dogs that target the kidneys (I will dig up some pics) they only take the kidney of the sheep or goat, it is rare for the dingoe to attack the head.

I've heard different reports from DNR that the coyotes go for the liver of deer. I don't know how accurate it is or just a generality. We had a small little group of deer on a yard one winter that ate the hardwood tops. A couple deer where killed on the wood yard, didn't know if dog or coyote at the time. There wasn't much left except the legs and head.

     Good morning all,
         Well here goes,Call me a wolf lover or what ever...............................
           During the deer season rifle,bow, black powder I am out every day in the forest-I have seen a few wolf-
        for the most part I see many many coyote-see them in a pack chasing deer quite a few times and taking them
       down-We have way to many of them they devastate the small game population and kill many deer-they need
       to be hunted more . The wolf population in the UP I think is 500-600 animals at most-kill maybee 5000 deer a
       year if that many ! 10 of thousands die from starvation and killed but automobiles-but many are afraid of the
       Big Bad wolf in the UP-you want to keep it so called Wild ?Kill them all Right ? I think Its wonderful they have
       come back and are a very beautiful animal-I think our DNRE is full of crap ! How many of you MasterBaiters
       of deer spend an average of 4500 hrs a yr in the UP forest ?Take your dog out to hunt rabbits and not watch
        them and they will become Coyotte food,not likely a wolf they are to timid-I have seen a pack of coyotee attack
       beagles near Seney-not a pretty sight ! we did get 4 of them. Sure the wolf population needs to be kept in check-
       What about humin populations encroaching on the forest every second-The wolf  populations in Russia are being
       killed and hunted into extinction or close to that-the wolf in the Kamchata peninsula are the wildest in the world
       these are some very big wolf and vicious(spelling sucks )been there seen them................ The wolf has a place here
       and must be excepted-NOT DESTROYED-Lets get rid of That Costly Moose Program in the UP-What a joke.
          Worried about your children-keep a Damned eye on them ! your dogs, cats watch them too. I have been to
        many different countries and seen many things in the wild it is wonderful to study and Learn from them-
           How many of you have seen a Asiatic Russian Giant Bear-Now thats a fellow to be very afraid of.I plan to publish
        a book on my travels in the wilds someday.I am off to Sudan (southern part) in October to help the people there
        and establish soom working water wells with a few buddies.

                    Paul

   I wish I had a better computer so I could post some pictures. Last week my dogs started to flip out royally at about 2am. My biggest dog, Brandy Girl, only barks at 2 things bears or wolves. She was just livid. I shined the light out into to dog yard and saw a single wolf trying to cut across the outer edge of the dog yard. He was pretty smart, or so he thought, he stayed just outside the dogs reach.
  His first mistake was he stayed just outside of the torn up area of ground around the dogs themselves. My wife and I watched as it took him about 5 min to cross the yard, he was picking up food that was just outside the dogs reach. We have seen wolves do this before. But when he finally reached Brandy Girl he made a mistake I don't think he will ever make again. Brandy girl has a 20' lead, the circle around her post is only 10' around. She is smart she waited until he was within 3 feet of her "limit", then when the wolf let his guard down she pounced on his dumb @#$# and sent him flying.
   Brandy Girl's not a little dog she is Akita/chow and weighs in at around 90lbs. but she is a bush dog and has killed many wolves in one on one fights. This poor wolf is going to be made fun of when he gets back to the pack, considering that Brandy Girl had the last 12"-14" of his tail as a snack after he ran for his life.
FB

Coyote are  getting a bit thick here.    One time in 02 We caught 2  baby yotes at the landfill.      I cought one that had the mange really bad in a pillow case.     We think they had been orphaned as there was never an adult around.   They  made a den in a small clay shelf that had sand eroded from under it.     We dipped here in sulphur and burnt motor oil to kill the mange mites.       She stayed as a pet for  4 months in a  pen but a person we new down the road let her out on weekend.       I used to sit out in the pen with her and exercise her mind.     Id hide food and  put it on plattforms.       A good game  was to catch live mice and rats in the feed bins and  let them go in her pen. 


The  other was caught later but was already wild we dipped her and got her back to healthy and  sent her to a  coyote  program to send to another area to  introduce new genes to older packs. 

A few years ago they were  thinned way out  now we have too many.    We ve had a few sightings of a mt lion here thats gota few folks worried.

A trapper recently shot an 86 lb coyote in northern NB. It is going to be DNA tested to see if it may be a wolf. The last recorded wolf kill in NB was in 1876. Coyotes in the region are known to be crosses with dogs and wolves. Mom's uncle caught a dog in a conibear that went for a timber wolf on the fur sale.

CBC News Article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/04/12/nb-wolf-shot-acadian-peninsula.html)

There was a similar sized coyote killed in Newfoundland recently as well. Where i grew up down on the eastern shore of NS the coyotes we were used to ranged in size from about 40lbs to the size of full grown german shephards. Quite a sight to see when you are alone in the woods.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 13, 2012, 05:40:46 AM
A trapper recently shot an 86 lb coyote in northern NB.
CBC News Article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/04/12/nb-wolf-shot-acadian-peninsula.html)

Wow !  The two coyotes I have weighed here at the farm were 32 lbs and 35 lbs....   I can not imagine a pure coyote weighing 86 lbs....

We have one of those here, my dad saw it a year ago but just caught a glimpse, wasn't sure, then last spring our neighbor asked me if I'd seen a wolf around because he was sure he'd seen one while planting, this last fall while deer hunting my wife saw something and asked me "how big do coyotes get?", about 2 weeks later I watched it stand up in a fenceline and trot off about 30 or so yards and stand there looking at me.  I'm pretty sure we are all seeing the same animal, it's colored just like what you'd expect to see in a coyote but probably a little bigger than the one in SD's link.  A few weeks after I saw it on my place I watched it walk by some old stock tanks at dad's place so I had something to really judge size by, it's big.  The thing with this one is it never seems to have much fear, around here coyotes will run, I don't know if it was something raised or a hybrid or what, I just know it's big.  Oh yeah, about an hour after my wife saw it we were hunting in a different spot when a coyote (full grown, average size) ran between us, she hollered "that is NOT what I saw!"  about 2 weeks later I totally agreed  ::)

The coyotes here are larger than the one Walt Disney made a movie with in California. Adult sized they are nearly 60 lbs.

I would guess, because I've never weighed one, a big coyote around here might be around 45#.  What ever I've been seeing is easily 2-3 times the size of what you expect to see, it's tail also sets it apart, long bushy and curled at the end like a J.  Everyone who's seen it said the first thing they noticed was the tail.

Mmmm.....   I am not an expert by any means, however, if the tail has a curl to it, I would be suspicious that it was mixed or crossed with something...  Probably a dog, maybe something like an Akita or a Husky.  An Akita/Husky coy-dog would likely keep a very similar phenotype relative to hair texture and coloration, and explain the size and the lack of fear of humans.

It would be interesting to have a DNA sample analyzed to understand from whence it came...

why were wolves shot to near extinction? they are a problem preditor. we have lived here for 40yrs always had a good deer herd, about 7 yrs ago wolves showed up 4 differnt ones that i know of for sure. since that time the deer numbers have gone to almost zero. we also lost 2 400 lb beef calves to wolves. we have always had a good healthy pack of coyotes so i dont buy all the loss on coyotes or dogs just wolves.

I keep hearing a "tree hugger/ animal lover " add on the radio about the new law in the gov, about wolf hunting being considered to be brought back.
OOO>>> save the wolf...   yea right,  they were Over populated 10 years ago.

We took care of the problem 150 years ago.  ;D Then soon after we got deer. Everyone loves deer. Because of hunting and sight seeing mostly. But if they diseased cows and horses they would not be so loved. But they do disease moose. Moose aren't farmed, so that is ok.

Photo op; These guys are almost the size of a German Shepard which is average around here.



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/PICT0019.JPG)



 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/PICT0054.JPG)

Our coyotes don't get near that big, I think Warren is probably right about it being cross bred.  I just showed my wife the picture in SD's link, she agrees about the color being right on, but what we've seen is much bigger.  I still wonder if it isn't something that someone raised, all in all if it doesn't bother me I won't bother it, I just can't believe with all the coyote hunters we have around that it hasn't been seen more (or killed) by them. We have a great pyranese (sp?) and this thing is bigger than her, she likes to stroll down to my inlaws every now and then to visit grandma and grandpa so I get to lift her back into the truck for the ride home, I'd guess at least a big hairy 100 pounds or so  :D.  Don't see wolves around here much so I'm not saying that's what it is, just saying I know it's not a coyote, wished I'd had a camera both times I saw it though.

      Oregon is just getting started in the wolf business, still alot of debate on what to do. They kill or collar them as they come in or reproduce, so they can keep track of them. You can follow one named Journey if you google it. Him and his brother took off from NE Oregon, they swam the snake river into Idaho, he took off across Oregon into California (the name Journey), the brother stayed in Idaho. In January, a hunter shot the one in Idaho, and as far as I know, Journey is still looking for some love.

My Son and I shot two coyotes one morning deer hunting.  The male weighed 49 pounds and the female 35.  I have seen a couple of large ones since then, but mostly in the 30 pound range.

Our worst predators are dogs, both wild and tame.  When the sun goes down all tame "outside" dogs become wild.  :-\

We have to use both traps and gunpowder to try to keep them in check.

Quote from: sandhills on April 14, 2012, 03:59:55 PM
I would guess, because I've never weighed one, a big coyote around here might be around 45#.  What ever I've been seeing is easily 2-3 times the size of what you expect to see, it's tail also sets it apart, long bushy and curled at the end like a J.  Everyone who's seen it said the first thing they noticed was the tail.

That animal almost assuredly is mixed with a domestic dog, which would explain why it's so much bigger than other coyotes. The curled tail is one of the defining characteristics of domestic dogs.

The straight stick down tail and the stiff legged gait are both coyote give aways.

Caught this coyote this winter trying to get a meal from under the snow.
Have seen bigger, but pretty normal for size around here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z8F-0j6Jiw&feature=channel&list=UL

Wolves and coyotes have their place.  It has been demonstrated many times that the health and vigor of deer herds is positively impacted by the presence of a viable wolf population, not to mention the health and vigor of the forest.

I would recommend reading A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold and viewing the film The Green Fire which is a very good documentary of Leopold's life.  Both his book and the film directly address the wolf issue.  In his youth Aldo shot every wolf he saw.  Later in life he came to understand the wolf's place in nature and how important to the balance of things wolves are.

the real issue here is keeping wolf numbers in check. not the current numbers either.the wolf has no enemy to keep the balance, so man has to be the the equalizer.

That's because man and wolf are after the same thing. If your a farmer you will have a hard time to stomach a wolf pack at your animals, so there are few options that solve this better than a rifle. But as I said, we are competing for the same thing. Take Africa for instance, lions will kill cheetas and hyenas will kill jackals if they can catch them.

I understand balance.  The hunting needs to be regulated to assure balance, otherwise everyone feels they should shoot every wolf they see because there must be many more around.  For me  the deer are enemy no. 1 but I only take the legal limit every year and concentrate on does.  Too bad the local populace would never agree to intoducing a wolf or two back into the picture.  It has been documented that at least one big cat is roaming around - hopefully no one shoots it.

Yeah, I wouldn't argue with you over the redeeming qualities. But it's kind of funny as I reflect on wildlife management in NB. It's spelled "deer" for some reason. Yet, they are the invasive species. Trouble is during the height of the population growth they were a major sport game up here like down south. Then things went bad for the deer: loss of winter habitat, some bad consecutive winters and over harvesting.  And then of course blaming the coyotes. Up here loose dogs were bad near settlements. DNR would shoot deer chasing dogs on site.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 19, 2012, 03:10:21 PM
Yeah, ..... Up here loose dogs were bad near settlements. DNR would shoot deer chasing dogs on site.

So why would the DNR shoot a deer because it was chasing a dog?

Coyotes are so common in WA that they may be killed 365 days of the year 24 hours a day. Heck I live in a big city and I had one in my backyard once and just a couple months ago driving to church on Sunday morning one ran in front of us. This is very populated area in no way rural just a big city. I know a guy who hunts them almost every other weekend in Eastern WA.  He gets a few most weekends. Wolves on the other hand are protected and scarce but I fear they will be back in force which is not good if you raise livestock. A word of advice if you kill a Wolf and it is not legal to kill one then don't save the hide and don't take pictures like the guy just did here in WA.

Check out the size of this guy

http://www.king5.com/home/Washington-wolf-killer-pleads-guilty-wife-admits-role-in-scheme-148017955.html

Dogs running down deer are called "deer chasing dogs" or "deer chasers". ;D

I shoot deer chasing dogs, at least that is a good excuse. So far, only have seen the deer as they must have all the dogs chased away by now. ;)  Venison is great!

I got a visitor;


 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12371/PICT0013.JPG)

If he/she stays around I won't be seeing many deer or coyotes.

Biggest  timber wolf I have seen was while hunting caribou up past Radisson on the Lagrande Riviere ....  He was also hunting for them.

They sure are nice to see from afar.  ;D

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 13, 2012, 05:40:46 AM
A trapper recently shot an 86 lb coyote in northern NB. It is going to be DNA tested to see if it may be a wolf. The last recorded wolf kill in NB was in 1876. Coyotes in the region are known to be crosses with dogs and wolves. Mom's uncle caught a dog in a conibear that went for a timber wolf on the fur sale.

CBC News Article (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/04/12/nb-wolf-shot-acadian-peninsula.html)

Yesterday the canine was confirmed by DNA testing to be the first wolf shot in NB in 136 years.  ;D

The latest news about the wolf is that it's most probably a pet. This is not far fetched as mom's uncle caught one in a trap by mistake. But he sold the hide as a timber wolf. I have heard of others that have such pets. This being a pet is what I had in the back of my mind all along. ;)

I know a few people that had a pair of wolves as pets years ago here in NS, fiercely loyal, fiercely protective and one hell of a handful when they decided they wanted to challenge you for the alpha position.

Yesterday it was confirmed that the wolf shot last year was a wild wolf, which was determined to be a cross between the Grey and the Eastern Canadian wolf.

"The last time a wolf had been reported killed in the province was in 1876. They were believed to have been hunted to extinction after the province started offering a bounty in 1858 of 15 shillings for every wolf killed."

Wolf News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2013/01/08/nb-wolf-wild-tests-shot.html)

This last week a federal judge in Washington sided with animal rights groups and issued a decision effectively squelching a 2012 move by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to remove federal protections for wolves in nine states in the Great Lakes region.   :(

one of the biggest things these type of people base their decisions on emotion not science facts ;) within the last 10 yrs.around here it went from a rare sighting of a wolf to i see them maybe once every couple of weeks.the biggest pack i have seen around here at one time was 6. at the same time frame i went from seeing around 30 deer in my field around home now its down to 3 . ;)i realize it's not all the wolf doing the damage  rather all bigger preditor(wolf,bear,coyote)which this deadly combination will lead to a huge imbalance in the food chain.
the way i see it once the dominate food scource has beeen exhausted the preditors will turn to other animals ie cattle, pets , and god forbid humans. when you have preditors that have no enemies to help control their numbers, its' left up to humans to be top preditor to keep the balance. sad? maybe but, true.
hopefully clearer heads will prevail and this ban can be reversed back to the states to control.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Dec. 22, 2014

Contact: Debbie Munson Badini, 906-226-1352


Federal court order returns wolves to endangered species list
Ruling suspends Michigan’s lethal control laws and permits

A federal court judge has ordered the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to immediately return wolves in the Great Lakes region to the federal endangered species list, making it illegal for Michigan citizens to kill wolves attacking livestock or dogs.

Under endangered species status, wolves may be killed only in the immediate defense of human life.

Two state laws allowing livestock or dog owners to kill wolves in the act of depredation are suspended by the ruling.

Additionally, lethal control permits previously issued by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources to livestock farmers to address ongoing conflicts with wolves are no longer valid; permit holders have been contacted regarding this change.

The return to federal endangered species status also means DNR wildlife and law enforcement officials no longer have the authority to use lethal control methods to manage wolf conflict.

However, non-lethal methods – such as flagging, fencing, flashing lights and guard animals – may still be used and are encouraged. Compensation for livestock lost to wolves continues to be available through the DNR and Department of Agriculture and Rural Development.

Citizens in need of assistance with problem wolves should contact their local DNR wildlife biologist or DNR wolf program coordinator Kevin Swanson at 906-228-6561.

Friday’s federal court order came in response to a lawsuit filed by the Humane Society of the United States challenging the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service’s decision to remove wolves in the Great Lakes Distinct Population Segment from the federal endangered species list in January 2012. The ruling affects wolves in Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin.

“The federal court decision is surprising and disappointing,” said Russ Mason, DNR Wildlife Division Chief. “Wolves in Michigan have exceeded recovery goals for 15 years and have no business being on the endangered species list, which is designed to help fragile populations recover – not to halt the use of effective wildlife management techniques.”

The DNR will work closely with the Michigan Attorney General’s office and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to determine the full impact of this ruling on the state’s wolf management program and identify next steps.

“In the meantime, the Wildlife Division will continue updating the state’s wolf management plan, which includes the use of hunting and other forms of lethal control to minimize conflict with wolves,” Mason said. “Although the federal court’s ruling prevents the use of these management tools for the time-being, the Department will be prepared for any future changes that would return wolves to state management authority.”

For more information about Michigan’s wolf population and management plan, visit www.michigan.gov/wolves.

**************************
Subject:  Urgent: Western Great Lakes Wolf Delisting Overturned

Looks like it is time for a rewrite of the Endangered Species Act. It clearly is not working as intended.
It's my understanding that the Feds have some pretty lame lawyers and HSUS has slick million dollar lawyers. I'm sure the outcome would have been different if this were brought to District court in Marquette, Ashland or Duluth. These lawyers shop for what they think they have the best chance of getting a ruling in their favor.
  These people believe they are saving an animal, when in fact rulings like this just further drive a wedge, and more will be killed through 3S management then would have been killed through regulated take. Thru earlier rulings, we are already 10 years behind with managing these animals. This will just further pith people off, and you will have more grandmothers shooting wolves from their back porch because they see no other option. The value of wolves has just been degraded to vermin. What a shame.
George Lindquist


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Amy Trotter <atrotter@mucc.org>
Date: Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 4:53 PM
Subject: Urgent: Western Great Lakes Wolf Delisting Overturned
To:





Sorry to be the bearer of bad news on a Friday, but attached is the US District Court’s opinion, plus the order accompanying the opinion on the case of HSUS v the US Dept of Interior et al.

Today, the DC District Court has vacated the Western Great Lakes wolf delisting in a harshly worded opinion that says that wolves cannot be delisted regionally when the broader population is still threatened. So this ruling impacts state wolf management not only here in Michigan, but also Wisconsin and Minnesota. As you probably recall, other states that are currently conducting wolf hunts were delisted through Congressional action.



The Court’s lengthy opinion is attached.   The remedy here is appeal and/or federal legislation. From our understanding, this is not something USFWS can fix on remand given the Court’s rigid interpretation.


   


   

What this means: Michigan wolves are back under federal management. This is not any fault of what we have done here in Michigan or any state in how they have managed wolves, this is a different interpretation of how a population gets delisted. And hopefully we can win on appeal. This does not mean that all of our work is for naught here in Michigan. Our law still stands, until such time that wolves are federally delisted.



Thanks again for all of your work and wishing you all a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Amy Trotter

most every one is going to get a 3s permit  :D :D I would be the first   thanks for posting

when i have lost cattle in the past , ya i could have pursude finacial recovery from the state but, if they don't know i have a problem then i can  handle the problems on our own. i make no effort to hide my intentions.kinda like clyvin bundy with the blm

Just remember if your weapon goes off,save the cartridges.

Quote from: DRB on April 21, 2012, 02:14:30 AM

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 19, 2012, 03:10:21 PM
Yeah, ..... Up here loose dogs were bad near settlements. DNR would shoot deer chasing dogs on site.

So why would the DNR shoot a deer because it was chasing a dog?

:D Good one. Deer populations have become a real problem in several parts of B.C., they have been known to get aggressive with dogs in urban areas. The real fear is moving on to humans, children in particular. The natural predators have been hunted or poisoned to the brink of extinction to protect live stock but that has opened another can of worms. A pack of Canadian wolves was introduced into the Bitteroot mountains to help restore the balance, the ranchers are most unhappy.

The term "deer chaser" is a lable given to dogs that chase down deer. The deer is not the target in this case. ;)

The boys that asked about hunting coyotes after deer season ran out of puff and steam several weeks ago. I knew them coyotes were safe when walking was the only mode of transportation, plus or minus some snow. :D

3S----I think that it is about time for the States to start shoving back to the feds.  This is by far the most extreme case of rape that has been put on anyone.  We got along just fine when there were no wolves in our area and we had a healthy population deer---wolves all over the place and the worst quality of venison that shouldn't be used by any human.    NO  I do not intend honor anyone by discussing the wolf issue -----the case is closed at my end and will not rest until they are gone---going to be a while I would bet---nevertheless

Quotewolves all over the place and the worst quality of venison that shouldn't be used by any human.

Barney
What changes the quality of venison for eating?

Buddy of mine hunts in the Herbster area and did get a nice buck this year.

Agree, that we were just fine without the introduction of wolves. The elk herd (also not a fan of that introduction either) could do a lot better without the wolves (and da bears).

Personally, I would welcome wolves back to Indiana.  The deer are rapidly degrading the forests and the hunters are having a tough time controlling the population even with the bonus permits.  In my county you can take one buck and seven doe.  Unfortunately most of the hunters feel the need to shoot a buck and never go on to harvest the doe.  Consequently the problem continues to grow.
Plus a nice population of wolves might keep some of the city folk in the city!

Quote from: OneWithWood on December 28, 2014, 05:18:37 PM
Personally, I would welcome wolves back to Indiana. 
a nice population of wolves might keep some of the city folk in the city!

that right there is some funny    ill agree  with you on that  :) :) :)

oww
be careful what you wish for ;) once wolves get estabilished in an area, everything that was normal will be gone. it's like uncorking the genie ain't no going back. :)
the word i'm starting to hear is law suits might start flying. going after people personally that have shown to suppoprt the re enlistment. suing for loss of income, mental angiuse you know the usual stuff. :)

Been there-----I said that I would NOT discuss anything relative to wolves----I like to equate them to terrorists or worse---not worth one dedeeming cent----lived next door to them for two years, they finally disappeared.

To the meat, if you have ever eaten venison that comes from totally relaxed deer versus one that has been chased for months on end and kept in a state of anxious getting ready to run and no fat on their bones what so ever----no different than wounding a deer and chasing them for tweo counties---the meat smells rotten in all cases and is so tough and stringy-----just of no use----That is my last word and I could give a good hoot about discussing it and meeting someone halfway---there is no half way    The only good wolf is a dead wolf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I only wondered if that is what you meant about the "worst quality of venison".
I get your point.  ;) ;)

This article is a couple years old but it illustrates the discrepancies from the DNR Claims on population and kills, to what Big Game Sportsmen are seeing. I've seen articles from hunting mags that claim wolves kill 30-40 whitetails per year. The DNR says that number is around 20 each.


http://www.lobowatch.org/adminclient/WolfImpact2/go

A recent discussion on our local  TV station with our local legislators, that you may find very interesting. The discussion about wolves begins at about the 5:35 mark.        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqgE5TjVvA4

Quote from: OneWithWood on December 28, 2014, 05:18:37 PM
Personally, I would welcome wolves back to Indiana.  The deer are rapidly degrading the forests and the hunters are having a tough time controlling the population even with the bonus permits.  In my county you can take one buck and seven doe.  Unfortunately most of the hunters feel the need to shoot a buck and never go on to harvest the doe.  Consequently the problem continues to grow.
Plus a nice population of wolves might keep some of the city folk in the city!

Maybe Indiana should adapt a regulation that I've seen on the Outdoor Channel (and I can't remember what state it was) where you could take a buck and a doe, but you had to take a doe first, then when you checked it in, they would issue you a buck tag!

Quote from: Chet on December 31, 2014, 08:13:09 PM
A recent discussion on our local  TV station with our local legislators, that you may find very interesting. The discussion about wolves begins at about the 5:35 mark.        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqgE5TjVvA4

The first part of the video would be great for the firewood board as well.

The problem with the wolves is another result of activist judges on both federal and state courts with political agendas that will ignore sound scientific evidence and logical reasoning to promote some radical group's ideas. I will say no more.  :-X

The comment that disturbed me was if your worried about wolves , don't let your kids play outside.  ::)

There's been a confirmed wolf population north of here for a few years.  They were collared by the DNR and reproducing.  Some had been DNA tested and were actually wolf/coyote hybrids.  The majority if not all of that batch disappeared.  Last winter a new population crossed the ice on the Straits and set up residence in the same area.  They appear to be full blood wolf.  A friend's elderly mother now carries her shotgun to the mailbox after the wolves started howling in the woods one day when she was getting her mail.  Shoot/shovel/shut up.

Quote from: WmFritz on January 01, 2015, 10:42:53 AM
The comment that disturbed me was if your worried about wolves , don't let your kids play outside.  ::)

We have seen a wolf in our yard twice this summer in broad daylight. One of them was within 25 feet of our front door! Never thought I'd be nervous of da grand kids playing outdoors.    :(
At some point some ones child or grand child will be a victim.  >:(

I think the Great Lakes region should do our part to reestablish wolves to other parts of our great country. We could live trap a good part of our population and redistribute them to less fortunate regions. Starting with those same city folk that want to travel here to see them. 

Chet  just think of all the money them city folk bring to your town  :D :D  that's what they told us when they made our town ultimate (suck) trout town U.S.A they come from all over and 99.999% of them bring there own food so they don't have to pay the high prices that they made most will travel 20 miles to a motel because its 10$ a night cheaper  us local people have to suffer

If the local merchants get greedy that is what happens. Most people will pay fair prices but some will always go cheap and spend a buck to save a quarter.

There was a TV ad on for a while, I haven't seen it lately, and I don't remember what it was promoting but it had to do with wolves/wildlife protection.  The wolves pictured appeared to big friendly dogs  ::) ::)  As long as people who don't know any better believe this that's what they'll think.  Wolves are just big cuddly persecuted dogs that just want to be petted and loved.

I talked to the fellows this week about the coyotes and they are still at it. They said the coyotes only seem to be around the baits once a week at my place. But I walk up there and see new tracks after every dusting of snow we get. They have got 70 coyotes now and didn't know exactly how many at my place. But they do keep a log of the numbers from each bait. They have been able to get in so far this year because a famer had plowed in to his fields beyond my place last month. They go in on a wheeler to the bait since it's about a half mile from where the road is plowed regularly.

i read an article from a local paper regaurding the re-enlistment of the wolves, a lady from the save the wolf group said. if farmers would bury their dead livestock they wound'nt have any problems with wolves. really? good thing breathing is an involantary action cuz  some of these people arent smart enough to do it on their own. ;) i don't have any dead livestock or have had any dead livestock laying around.ii lose cattle almost every year .wolves don't eat already dead livestock. they just love the chase and kill part.
the part they(wolf huggers) don't get is sadly the wolf is a wasteful killer, top of the food chain. yes they look all cute and inoccent but, they aren't. there was a reason our genreations before shot and trapped them to the brink of exstintion. ok i'll stop now,i hope i haven't offended anyone :)

Quote from: red oaks lumber on January 03, 2015, 11:17:15 AM
i read an article from a local paper regaurding the re-enlistment of the wolves, a lady from the save the wolf group said. if farmers would bury their dead livestock they wound'nt have any problems with wolves.

Da truly sad part of this whole ordeal, is that a federal judge bought into this bologna.

This wolf business goes on like a saga around here.  My son-in-law raises beeef and his farm is right on the main  highway and only 3 miles out of Cable.  He has lost 13 head of beef one 5 day colt .  The US fish and Wild life have to come and get the details.  They in turn give the evidence to our dnr who promptly dispute any and all claims and so far have only paid for 4 head.  This last fall the wolves tore out a calf being born and carried it off .  Sorry can't pay calf wasn't alive, the mother eventually died month or so later.  The classic cure was to capture the killer wolf and put an electical collar on her and then  put up a bunch of towers on my son-in-laws property so that if she came with in range she would be shocked-----think I am kidding? don't this is how bad our dnr is and how much power the feds have over the States Rights.   I can't find words enough to describe my total anger with this wolf  bs-----Don

Quote from: red oaks lumber on January 03, 2015, 11:17:15 AM
i read an article from a local paper regaurding the re-enlistment of the wolves, a lady from the save the wolf group said. if farmers would bury their dead livestock they wound'nt have any problems with wolves. really? good thing breathing is an involantary action cuz  some of these people arent smart enough to do it on their own. ;) i don't have any dead livestock or have had any dead livestock laying around.ii lose cattle almost every year .wolves don't eat already dead livestock. they just love the chase and kill part.
the part they(wolf huggers) don't get is sadly the wolf is a wasteful killer, top of the food chain. yes they look all cute and inoccent but, they aren't. there was a reason our genreations before shot and trapped them to the brink of exstintion. ok i'll stop now,i hope i haven't offended anyone :)

Keep preachin' it brother...I'll lead the singin'.

Quote from: red oaks lumber on January 03, 2015, 11:17:15 AM
i read an article from a local paper regaurding the re-enlistment of the wolves, a lady from the save the wolf group said. if farmers would bury their dead livestock they wound'nt have any problems with wolves. really? good thing breathing is an involantary action cuz  some of these people arent smart enough to do it on their own. ;) i don't have any dead livestock or have had any dead livestock laying around.ii lose cattle almost every year .wolves don't eat already dead livestock. they just love the chase and kill part.
the part they(wolf huggers) don't get is sadly the wolf is a wasteful killer, top of the food chain. yes they look all cute and inoccent but, they aren't. there was a reason our genreations before shot and trapped them to the brink of exstintion. ok i'll stop now,i hope i haven't offended anyone :)

to bad if so    you ranchers all got the short end of the stick

    Seems to be a lot of misinformation and tall tales about wolves, but for anyone to suggest poaching a wild animal is just wrong.

Farley Mowett wrote mostly fiction about wolves and he was never a biologist, an assistant maybe. His tales were discredited long ago. It's non factual writings like that that people get wrong impressions from.

Look up saveelk.com it will give you some to think a bought. you will see just what kind of a killer the wolf is 

S.S.S.   :rifle:

terry
i don't believe in killing animals just for the sake of killing them but, when it becomes a case of protecting my investment and lively hood it puts me in a position that leaves me with no other choice. :)
the wolf has no known preditors to keep their numbers in balance within the ecosystem so, man has to intervene and control the population. does it seem cruel and cold? maybe but, if we don't this problem with balloon into something that might not be contained.
whats happening around my area is the top preditors ,wolf,bear,coyote, are depleating their main diets of beaver,deer, rabbits, small rodents ect. so its forcing them to look at other food source ie cattle,small dogs ,cats and eventually god forbid small kids or adults.
so ya if that means i have to "poach" to do my part then,so be it. :) man is still on top of the food chain.

ROL
x2  (well said)

 smiley_thumbsup

WELL SAID ROL  its the same with trapping   the lady next door good lady use to have a cow when she saw me with coons and bobcats and what ever    till one day a rabbid coon got in a scuffle with her dear little kitty :'( then it was game on she asked me to set traps on her property and get them all    but i told her sorry    i had other places to go and get problem critters    i said you should have let me do it from the start   some people not all just don't understand  again rol well said

   We all think we know better than whatever our department of resources is, ours is Fish and Wildlife. The season is too short, the season is too long, they are shooting too many, they are not killing enough. In the end we all have to follow the rules. Killing a wolf that is attacking your property is one thing, killing it for something it might do is another. No doubt I would do the first S to protect whats mine, but everyone would hear about it before I would do the other SS, and face the music. Still never been a documented case of a wolf killing a human in the lower 48, in the history of our country, don't live in fear.

 

Quote from: terry f on January 04, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
   We all think we know better than whatever our department of resources is, ours is Fish and Wildlife .

Michigan Department of Natural Resources is in favor of a Wolf hunt!

Quote from: terry f on January 04, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
Still never been a documented case of a wolf killing a human in the lower 48, in the history of our country, don't live in fear.

Any person that isn't fearful when they often see a wolf in the same area that their children or grandchildren play has something seriously wrong with them.

I'm pretty sure it was our government that deemed wolves needed to be eradicated from the countryside, paid a bounty on every wolf shot and pelt turned in, hired people to hunt them down and organize hunts to eliminate them and made sure they were gone.   

Now some claim we need to trust in our government to reintroduce the wolves back again because they know better than people??    So which is it, which time were/are they right/wrong??   As for any statement about education, save it, its been used before by the government to educate people to eradicate the wolf in the first place, again to educated people to reintroduce the wolf back again, and I'm pretty sure with enough time, grief and money spent, our future generations can again eradicate the wolf via government directives in the upcoming decades or century.     

These are the only good wolves I can think of

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33477/DSCN0423.JPG) the rest are targets

Some would like the woodland caribou back in NB and Maine. But the white tailed deer did them in. And several attempts to bring them back failed. Their demise was after wolves were long gone from here. The only known wolf recently found was a dead one that they did dna test on, it was quite surprise I think. Not that it was shot dead, but that it was even here. I think there are suspicions that it was released.

The wolves don't do to bad way up north in wood buffalo park. No one farming there and not much population of humans around. The park is huge.

    Chet, me and my kids, and now my grandsons have hiked, hunted and played in the woods of Eastern Oregon for most of our lives that has cats, bears, coyotes and now wolves. To be honest with you, I have never worried about or even thought about being attacked, but when you see one it does get the blood pumping. I'm more worried about the two legged vermin I'm sharing the woods with. That's not to say that if I came across a pack of wolves a strong sense of fear wouldn't set in. To bad they closed your season, and sorry to hear about your deer being wiped out, but they'll figure it out. Idaho just had their second wolf derby, over a hundred hunters each year for the three day hunt, and they have yet to get a wolf, but if you listen to the ranchers you would think there is a wolf behind every tree.

I used to work in wolf country myself. They would make themselves scarce, all we ever saw was tracks from the night before.

last fall a pack was trying to surround me, let me tell you that gets your blood a flowin :)

Quote from: terry f on January 06, 2015, 05:17:38 PM
Chet, me and my kids, and now my grandsons have hiked, hunted and played in the woods..........but if you listen to the ranchers you would think there is a wolf behind every tree.

Just another example of a tourist thinking they know better than the people that live with them all the time. Where is my shake my head in disgust smiley?

QuoteAny person that isn't fearful when they often see a wolf in the same area that their children or grandchildren play has something seriously wrong with them.

Absolutely

Jeff, that is why I won't discuss wolves----makes no sense at all.   Try a pack of wolves(4) taking down a doe thirty feet from my back door.  It was at this point that Sen. Russ Fiengold---running for re-election--saw to it that they were all moved after catching up with him at a local meeting.

I suppose feelings about predatory animals are mixed depending on a persons location .We do not have wolves in this part of the country however we have coyotes,fox and red tail hawks .Fact I saw coyote tracks right outside my house after  a recent snow fall .

To have predators the eco system has to have prey ,it's just the way it works .To have both suggests a healthy eco system .Man kind in spite of PITA (sic) and other organizations is part of the balance of nature.

We as such are not encroaching on this system but are rather part of it .

I'd like to see wolves come back here. However, the problem is the law allows these animal rights extremists to sue and manipulate our laws. There needs to be a control on the wolf population, just like the wolves control the deer. Essentially, the animal rights groups through their actions out west ensured no wolf reintroduction here in the northeast. They did a lot more harm to the cause of conservation than good. They've discredited the endangered species act by hijacking it with their ignorant beliefs. I don't think the caribou will return to the northeast until there are wolves or cougars to control the deer in their former habitat.

I dislike the description of wolves being wild.  What they really amount to is tame wolves the same sort of wild as your pet dog.  Around here you can generally walk up to within a couple feet of a wolf.  These are not wild animals that we have here.  The wolves have been moved, studied , babied from what I can tell the folks in charge "our" wolves have pet names for these things.  The dnr around here is not honest in how wolves are monitored or anything to do with control.  They move these animals at will, when they are supposed to be left alone.  This is not a wild area and is no different than a "wild" suburb.  You know if it was mankind treating the whitetail deer and bambi the way the wolves do we would have PITA climbing all over our backs and throwing us in jail.  I don't think that any of those that think it is ok for wolves to be part of food chain have ever seen the aftermath of a death fight or how they kill fawns by ripping off the hide then letting them run around.  Deer hunterrs try for one shot properly placed bullet----wolves have no thought of quick kill.   It is quite frankly a sickening sight where wolves have killed-----no I am no bleeding heart saying that this is not the part of the process.   If these "wolf " people would see some of this rather than the beautified pictures then there might be a change of a few ideas on wolves taking place.  The wolf is nothing more than the same as  the beheading terrorists in the mideast---kill for the fun of it.  There are those that say THEY know what THEY are talking abouit  because they go into the woods and don't see any wolves----so therefore there must not be a problem.  Oh," killing for the fun of it" will no doubt will set off a few of you tourists as Jeff said--too bad, don't talk to me about it .  There is no rule written that says that the wolf as to be part of the chain of any  goings on----none    Our fore fathers eradicated them as best that they could and that served everyone very well until some misinformed bunch thought that it would be "cute" to have a huge population of them and out of control at this writing-----good grief got carried away again.  You can write in response but I WILL NOT answer unless it is to shed further light.

Gee, Barney, why waste your time typing all that if the only purpose is to rant?  The purpose of the threads on this forum are to foster discussion and exchange ideas.  Simply throwing out statements and then saying ' I don't want to discuss it, just get my two cents in' only takes up space that could be better used.

BarneyII

I can't believe a word of what you say. Certainly the DNR doesn't move the wolves around "at will". 

They follow them, collar them, "name" them for id, etc.
But they are still pretty wild. Can't "whistle" one up  ;D

having a large wolf problem as we have in northern wisconsin as well as other states i'm sure do, your thoughts and feelings become changed and you start harboring ill will towards those who support wolves.
the dnr in the north does operate differnalty than the lower part of wisconsin :) has my area changed since the wolves moved in ? sure it has, and not in a posative way either. most people are very passinate about whitetails both in watching them to hunting them, and you clearly see that the numbers have been reduced drasticaly in the past 5-10 yrs.
when a group of people can change your way of life in a negative manner without any real bases other than an emotional  connection ,it casts a very hostile behavior for those affected. :)
the biggest disapointment regaurding the recent reversal of protection, is there isn't any room for future herd control of wolves. ;) unless you are dealing with wolves on a regular basis, it's hard to truely understand why some of us have little to no tolorence for protecting the wolf.  :)

Our wolves are certainly not tame and our DNR, as far as I can see, was at least trying to manage them, however that right has now been taken away.

The post that started this thread in Feb of 2007:
'The U.S. Fish and Wildlife service has shot 4 Northern Timber Wolves in this area in da last couple of weeks, with the hopes of shooting at least 1 more. Iron County, in the U.P. of Michigan has a large population. In some cases they are beginning to be a noticeable problem.'

You will notice this was 8 years ago, and 5 years prior to their protection status being lifted in 2012,  and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service already recognized we had a problem in this area. 

Let me reply----I probably should have made very evident that I was talking about my area nad you have to be here to believe what goes on.  The dnr MOVED 3 troubling wolves from a friends area to my area ----have pics to prove it.   These things around me have been trapped a least a dozen times , tagged and let go and retagged.   The ones originally brought in would walk right into your yard and when the dog came out thay would go after the dog.  I suppose to apply tame to all would be wrong.  When they come through hrere in a sweep you can get very close to them and they won't run---I do the running.  As far as wasting space. I said right from the git go what this was all about----If you are really offended have Jeff remove the pc.  and as you said , it is a rant----the only rant that has been on this forum. If you are not in my shoes do not judge me-----I do not judge anyone else---one reason for no discussion---END

Around here they seem to react the same way. I don't think it is a function of being tame as much as not having a fear of humans.

i think your absolutely right chet ,they have no fear of humans. all the ones around me don't run when we first see each other,it's more they stand and study the situation. it's gotten to the point i see wolves every couple of weeks.most likely the same pack which i figure to be aleast 9. how you ask ? after a recent snow fall, well it was still snowing.when i was feeding cows in the pasture i cut their tracks and i stopped and surveyed the area and counted 9 differant sets of tracks all very fresh and of varying sizes. :)

Nothing some 1080 and meat cant fix. Works for Dingos and possums!

   I hope no one takes your advise Thewoodman, hate to see the cats, bears, eagles, hawks or pets killed while you are trying to poison a wolf. Oregon has a three strikes and you're out when it comes to wolves. After a couple confirmed kills on livestock, they take them out, and I don't mean transplant, they will kill them. Our newest pack is east of Medford, hopefully they will stay away from livestock, it would be a PR nightmare to take him out, its the one that went to California looking for love.

I have a "one attempt and you're out" policy for predators bothering my livestock. We still have the freedom to defend our property here in BC and for that I'm thankfull.

Quote from: terry f on January 04, 2015, 03:53:30 PM
   We all think we know better than whatever our department of resources is, ours is Fish and Wildlife. The season is too short, the season is too long, they are shooting too many, they are not killing enough. In the end we all have to follow the rules. Killing a wolf that is attacking your property is one thing, killing it for something it might do is another. No doubt I would do the first S to protect whats mine, but everyone would hear about it before I would do the other SS, and face the music. Still never been a documented case of a wolf killing a human in the lower 48, in the history of our country, don't live in fear.

Documented here:
http://www.arizonadailyindependent.com/2013/11/29/wolf-attacks-on-humans-in-north-america/

and the coyote killing the runner in NS
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coyotes-kill-toronto-singer-in-cape-breton-1.779304

and mountain lions
http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_nonca.html

Don't forget the dog attacks. Ask the mail men/women and pedestrains out for a stroll. ;)

There's now 70+ less coyotes around this winter. Funny though this week I saw tracks of 3 more still around where my trappers are. They are not dumb animals, these are the cagy ones too smart for the trap. ;)

 I have no issues with wolves, I see um, I shoot um or try my damness to get um.

Curious thing about that statistic about no wolf killing or harming humans in the lower 48, same stat the activists used to preach about the need to allow the reintroduction of the wolf into areas it hasn't been since its eradication.     That was "after" it was all but eradicated, not before or better yet, since the wolf has been roaming the earth.    Just thought it a bid odd to even use such a stat in the first place, rather than use a stat from all around the world, especially in area's it has roamed in close proximity to humans, that is, if there is a place it roams that hasn't been cut in numbers so badly as to skew the data. 

Glad to see Beenthere has found some data for us to read, I've been looking but hadn't found much, which is also odd, turns out there's not a whole lot of data available, in terms of stat's as to why the government waged a war on wolves in the first place, and no other large predator, such as bears, mountain lions or even coyotes.      There were no survey's done that I could find, as to the number of wolf attacks or kills, what they killed or amount of complaints, or what the complaints even were, not to mention any and all complaints registered, only a handful of newspaper clippings dating back that far about wolf predation on livestock and damaging and endangering the safety of people in general.      Seems that data was never kept, about the same as today with law enforcement with daily complaints filed either over the phone or in person, none are kept long term, at most only a year, doesn't mean complaints are not filed by angry citizens, just 10 years from now, nobody has a record kept of it.   Much like wolf data, there's a very big grey area, doesn't mean none of it happened, like some stat's would want you to believe, it just means none of that data was kept as being anything but common knowledge at the time and nobody knew or cared enough to keep it all compiled somewhere, after all, back then, who would ever try to bring back a public menace slated for eradication by the government applauded by the public.     

I'm an avid deer hunter and I am happy to have the wolves.  The deer now have to remember what it means to be a deer. It makes for a healthier herd. It make is more difficult to sit in the same heated blind from year to year and have a successful "hunt", but is that a bad thing?  People want a stationary deer herd that will come to the same bait pile year after year. With wolves (which aren't nearly the number one killer of deer) the deer move more and don't overgraze or become backyard "pets". If saving deer is the real goal winters and motorists should be outlawed.  Why is there no call to kill off all the bears?  When a single winter kills over 50% of the herd why is there no call to reduce the number of deer licenses sold during the next fall?

The whole subject is tired and used up.  I think what it comes down to is that people are needlessly afraid of wolves.

QuoteWhen a single winter kills over 50% of the herd why is there no call to reduce the number of deer licenses sold during the next fall?

if that is the way your State DNR performs, that is sad and is no wonder you think like you do. Our deer herd and licenses are regulated and assessed on those things every single year, as well as the other predators that prey on the deer. Other than the wolf. Seems like the wolf lovers only get one sided information or choose to disregard the other side.

'Our deer herd and licenses are regulated and assessed on those things every single year, as well as the other predators that prey on the deer. Other than the wolf.'

Actually the MDNR was including wolves the last few years. Including hunts in this area. Wisconsin has been doing the same, not sure about Minnesota.

I know that, what I'm saying is they cannot do it anymore.that is, they can't regulate the wolf ingredient anymore. They can regulate the hunt of the deer based on the numbers the Wolves kill.

I have no idea how you North Americans can restrain your self when it comes to Deer  hunting. Stuff the Tag system, if its in front of you... shoot it!

its really sad when the people pushing to keep the wolf protected or vocally support the protection,trying to paint the wolf as this big fuzzy cousin of there family dog. ;) to that i say come to my place,spend a couple months, when you leave you'll have a differant opinion about the cousin to your pet. :)
when thugs start looting and pillaging your neibor hood, the cops come and remove the problem, thats all i want to have happen with the wolves. i could careless about the deer herd, that population ebbs and flows with alot of other factors...my biggest finacal threat is the wolf,why can't i protect my livelyhood without being a criminal?
think about this.... the wolf was pushed to the brink of exstinction in the past for 1 reason, they were reckless killers

Quote from: red oaks lumber on January 13, 2015, 07:54:35 AM
its really sad when the people pushing to keep the wolf protected or vocally support the protection,trying to paint the wolf as this big fuzzy cousin of there family dog. ;) to that i say come to my place,spend a couple months, when you leave you'll have a differant opinion about the cousin to your pet. :)
when thugs start looting and pillaging your neibor hood, the cops come and remove the problem, thats all i want to have happen with the wolves. i could careless about the deer herd, that population ebbs and flows with alot of other factors...my biggest finacal threat is the wolf,why can't i protect my livelyhood without being a criminal?
think about this.... the wolf was pushed to the brink of exstinction in the past for 1 reason, they were reckless killers

well said Steve, it seems that it's never a (real) problem til  it becomes personal, and most often than not financial.

    I don't think anyone considers the wolf the lovable cousin to the family pet. Go to youtube and see the pack of wolves run down a coyote on a buffalo kill, I actually felt bad for the coyote, but then I feel bad for the rabbit when the coyote gets it, that's the way nature works, it aint pretty. I think its more the idea (romance) of having a wild animal at the top of the food chain, keeping the wild things wild. If a cougar or pack of wolves wanted to get you, there's not much you could do about it, but they don't. Beenthere, the best I can find from that link is that maybe in the 1840's, someone might have been killed by a wolf, and even that was a story told 15 years later, so I'll stick to my "no one has ever been killed by a wolf in the lower 48". Problem animals of the big three (bears, lions and wolves) that lose their fear of humans, are turned into rugs (as should be) even in California and National parks, so I have a tough time believing the wolves in Michigan and Wisconsin are tame by any means.

So you have to be killed by one to be a big deal?  Getting mauled or bitten doesn't count?

terry
there is a dog food comercial that starts out as a pack of wolves turning into dogs coming to the dog food. ;)  tell me that isn't an attempt to relate fido to wolves.
it's clear you don't want to hear my arguement about wolves,thats fine but,wanting my hands tied to protect my property is wrong . to make things fair i say release charles manson and have him move to your neibor hood.he hasn't killed in 40 yrs,even at that it was only a few people :)
alittle insight to my attempt to reduce the impact of wolves.5 yrs ago i started fencing my cows out of the woods approx. 2 1/2 miles of fence my cost just over 10 grand. 2 yrs later i fenced in  about  5 acres that i use as my maturity area during calving ,my cost another 2 grand .later that same yr i had a 35 acre tract of woods reduced to about a 15% canopy at the same time all the under brush was removed and the tops from the logging process were all chipped and removed. the idea was to create a more open area so wolves would be less inclined to hang closer.i also had to fence that section so, now it can be grazed a couple times of yr to keep any new growth in check. that added another 5 grand expense. still was having wolf issues so, last fall i had another section of woods logged very heavy to again make the barrier even furthure.
in the five yrs since i started to be very proactive i have spent over 20 grand out of my own pocket and my lost livestock have excceded 12 grand . i can't put a price on the lost weight gains because nervous animals don't gain well.
my latest attempt i'm researching a sound wave activated  by motion  sounding alarms which will run the whole perrimeter of my farm, cost? i have no idea yet :)
so if its seems like i don't see your veiws, i live in the trenches every day so, please don't try to tell some other theory cuz  this aint science fiction it's nature at its ugliest. :)

let me add the back of my property which is 3/4 mile wide bumps up to almost 5,000 acres of county forest.

No, you certainly don't have to killed by one or bitten or chased by one.  Read Steve's last post and you will see how wolves affect your life , your finances. just about everything that you do when you have them in your area and even if they are not in your area you still have to plan a defense against these terrorists.  Make no mistake about it----they are terrorists no different from those two legged ones that cause all the mayhem and killings.  All of this is due to the federal government protection.  If left to fend for themselves as their prey is they would be gone in short order. 

There was a reason our ancestors tried their best to shoot every one of them. They lived closer to the land. Lose a few cows and that that could make the difference in losing the family farm.

    Red Oaks, I have no desire to tie your hands on how you protect your property. I don't know how many wolves you, other hunters and state game officials have killed in your pasture the last few years, but it sounds like the State has failed you if they have been giving a pass to all these livestock killing wolves you have. Like I said, a wolf in my yard would be shot dead, and still be laying there when the State Police come to pick it up, that's too close. But to poach one out in the wild, or worse yet poison one, is just wrong. Looks like those three States have about 3,000 wolves, and 1,500 have been killed the last few years by hunters and others. I don't know if that's a lot since Oregon only has 50 to 100, but we have 5,700 cougars and I know you would be hard pressed to find one. As far as Charles Manson, he would have been one of those problem wolves that would have been turned into a rug, not relocated.

   WH_Conley, they also tried to kill off the Buffalo, Antelope and White Tailed Deer, but I don't think they knew any better, so I'll give them a pass.

I kind of hate to break the news to you Terry, but killing any wolf even on your property is illegal no matter the situation, but the larger issue at hand here is this, what makes it fine for you to kill one in your backyard, but not someone else to do it on their property, some farmers, including me, feel my back 40 over the hill is just as personal as your back yard behind your house you can see from your house.   I'm not wanting to point fingers, but what you claim or say is somewhat hypocritical and you and you alone are not playing by the rules where everyone else should have to and if they go to protect their property and income, that's a very bad thing and is in fact an outrage in the public eye.   

To put any animal under federal protection is one thing, but to reintroduce them "with" protection is another altogether.     

As for the feds, maybe they should reimburse every farmer, rancher and homeowner for all their added expense, here's an even better idea yet, how about having them have all the responsibility and liability for all their animals and the cost associated with them, starting with deer/vehicle collisions, no different than any other property owner is required to do.       

If the average person screaming how great the wolf is and how dare anyone illegally hunt, shoot, or destroy such a wonderful creature, would ever have their pay deducted at random for random amounts, would sue the federal government, their employer, and be headlines in every newspaper of unfair treatment, but farmers and ranchers have it happen daily via extra costs involving many aspects of wildlife and they can pretty much sit down and shut up, makes a difference on in "who's backyard its being done in", and who is paying for the privilege of dealing with the wildlife and feeding them.

A few posts back Terry said he too would shoot a wolf that was too close to his home but he would also notify the authorities afterward and face the consequences.

Well said, Randy.

Let me relate an early incident about shooting wolves in our yard.  The dnr saw fit to move at their pleasure 3 wolves that the millionaire home owners  no longer wanted bothering them.  They moved them to my property-six miles way.  They took up residence in my yard for sometime.  I called the people responsible for the wolves in my area.  I asked how to get rid of them.  The answer was" throw rocks at them" and do not use a sling shot"  I did get rid of these not so wild  wolves but in a few weeks they were joined by 8 others---had a regular parade on the road infront of my house.  So shoot all the wolves you want in your yard but be prepared for the consequences that will befall you when the federals come to  meet you.  Wolves have nothing to fear so why should they run at the sight of a human.  Notice how the coyote takes off when confronted in the woods. 

Coyotes here aren't pure coyotes. They sure aren't like the ones Walt Disney showed strolling through the back yard garbage cans in suburban California. They can be aggressive, but most all aren't. Like that girl beenthere posted the artical on in NS. That really happened, it wasn't fiction.

Bears are beginning to get thick around here to, one time long ago, they had a bounty because they got into killing farmer's sheep around here. In those days the sheep were clothing, bedding, insulation and food for the farm.

I don't think we have them in NH, But that can be an easy fix.
    :rifle:

Quote from: terry f on January 14, 2015, 05:22:16 AMI don't know if that's a lot since Oregon only has 50 to 100,

You need to clarify your statement. There are only 50-100 wolves that the wildlife department has documented. That number doesn't come close to the true numbers. There are 10+ that call some property I own part of their territory. That is only one small part of one county. You must live in an urban Oregon city. It'd help if you asked some of the people that actually own large parcels of rural land where wolves live and hunt. We have 9 day deer hunting seasons because we've lost a large number of deer. Wolves are one reason for their numbers declining.

In spite of what the news tells you, OR-7 is not the only wolf with a pack in Oregon.

   Gimpy, that 9 day season has been around 30 years, long before the first wolf took a drink of water from the Snake River, and decided it would be a good idea to swim it. OR-7 has the newest pack (Rogue) and the second newest pack is the Meacham Pack, which is on the same ridge I'm on. Wolves were never introduced in Oregon, but they are here to stay. Ranchers use the sportsmen as pawns in the wolf fight around here, but they hate the elk as much as the wolf.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-launches-wolf-hunt-to-save-caribou/article22480868/

184 wolves to be culled in BC

They have not announced why Quebec in the north is loosing their caribou heard, but we can guess I suppose what might be helping it decline.

Quote from: Jeff on January 12, 2015, 01:03:20 PM

QuoteWhen a single winter kills over 50% of the herd why is there no call to reduce the number of deer licenses sold during the next fall?

if that is the way your State DNR performs, that is sad and is no wonder you think like you do. Our deer herd and licenses are regulated and assessed on those things every single year, as well as the other predators that prey on the deer. Other than the wolf. Seems like the wolf lovers only get one sided information or choose to disregard the other side.

Call me a wolf lover.  That's fine.  That's your term not mine. It doesn't bother me in the least. Since you obviously see the term "wolf lover" as derogatory it seems that you are "bashing" when you call me that.  Isn't that behavior against the rules here?  Just asking.

Question; Have you seen any decrease in the number of licenses given this year for deer?  In the U.P. this year it was the status quo as far as license availability.  If wolves really where going to cause the extinction of the whitetail deer as many contend why were doe permits available for hunters over the counter this past fall/winter? If the whitetail population is so perilously poised on the brink and last winter killed an estimate 56% of the herd in the U.P. why were permits given to kill does who in many cases are pregnant?

All the arm waving aside it seems to me that since the DNR did not curtail license sales and they take in to account predation of deer by wolves and winter-kill etc. the evidence points to the herd not being in such a predicament after all.

So, with the wolves in place in Michigan, how long before the whitetail population is extinct?  Serious question.

Good day, all.

Quote from: SliverPicker
If the whitetail population is so perilously poised on the brink and last winter killed an estimate 56% of the herd in the U.P. why were permits given to kill does who in many cases are pregnant?

All the arm waving aside it seems to me that since the DNR did not curtail license sales and they take in to account predation of deer by wolves and winter-kill etc. the evidence points to the herd not being in such a predicament after all.

No Anterless Deer permits were issued on public land in the U.P. last year.

Sliverpicker, I copied this link so you could get your facts straight.  ::)

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/Antlerless_Deer_Hunting_Digest_459377_7.pdf

(Copied from the Michigan DNR website)

2014 MICHIGAN DEER HUNTING PROSPECTS IN THE UP
Biologists recommended closing
all public land and all but three private land deer management units for antlerless licenses
this year in order to allow deer numbers to rebound over the next three years. The three
units currently open for private land antlerless licenses are located in the south central
portion of the UP which typically has higher deer populations than anywhere else in the
UP. Antlerless permits are available in Deer Management Units: 055 (Menominee), 122
(Norway), and 155 (Gladstone).

Quote from: SliverPicker on January 16, 2015, 11:59:46 AM
Call me a wolf lover.  That's fine.  That's your term not mine. It doesn't bother me in the least. Since you obviously see the term "wolf lover" as derogatory it seems that you are "bashing" when you call me that.  Isn't that behavior against the rules here?  Just asking.

Guess what. I make the rules and my rules are different then yours, so be very very careful. You obviously get your facts wrong, as your post on our U.P. wasn't even close to being factual. I'd not be arguing the point with people that actually live there.

what i find funny(i say this sarcasticaly) anyone i have ever talked with that really supports wolves don't ever get their facts even close to being accurate. ;)
i think the biggest answer that gets me hot is when i have been told to by wolf supporters that i should just change occupations if i don't like wolves, really? i'm gonna stop now cause my additude is slightly poor, and i don't want this thread to end in the wood shed :)

ROL  you have more self control than I do  ;D I feel sorry for all you ranchers and support every thing you do about the problem your having I don't live there but have friends that do and the things they tell me  well lets just say im glad I live here or other wise id be in a 10x10 concrete cell  keep up the  pest control  :)

ROL has to maintain self control the "Feds" have him  "profiled" any wolf that is found dead near his place he immediately becomes one of the "usual suspects".
I am no fan of wolves having  been around them all my life. They are not endangered by any means in this area (North West Ontario) but the government now requires me to buy a license to hunt them (limit 2) Farmers and landowners can shoot them for livestock and animal protection (Yes Virginia they will kill (sometimes just for pure spite) and eat your pet dogs, cats etc.) but you are required to report it to the Conservation Officers.  There are the usual programs for compensating livestock owners for losses but it turns into a bunch of bureaucratic red tape and the $ forthcoming (when and if) never equals the loss and as for pets I hope you took plenty of pictures for memories.  Needless  to say up here  lead based wolf repellant is very popular as is SSS.
One sure sign that you have timber wolves in the area..... the coyotes disappear.
If wolves cannot survive in an area without draconian protections they do not belong there anymore. If you want to introduce them into a National Park (Yellowstone, or large Wilderness areas) fine but outside they are on their own.
If you are a fan of protected reintroduction of wolves then why not grizzly bears to all National Parks and Wilderness areas in their former range all the way to the Mexican border. ;D A search shows that historically the bears ranged all over the "left coast".
Coming full circle ROL is not a multimillionaire nor does it seem he has the political pull to make common sense prevail among a certain fraction of bureaucrats.
We have the same mentality up here but the wolves are no way endangered so they can't play that card, but they seem not be able to make the link between increasing wolf populations and decreasing Moose and Woodland Caribou populations I suppose they think that the wolves exist on the "old sick and lame" fairy tale.
My response is "What do wolves eat when there are no easy pickings left?" 
Living among the Wolves
Al

Quote from: OntarioAl on January 17, 2015, 11:00:33 AM
One sure sign that you have timber wolves in the area..... the coyotes disappear.
If wolves cannot survive in an area without draconian protections they do not belong there anymore.
If you are a fan of protected reintroduction of wolves then why not grizzly bears to all National Parks and Wilderness areas in their former range all the way to the Mexican border.

That is what my neighbours talk about. They have been trapping coyotes and wolves in this area for about 50 years and try to keep populations under control, but they told me to keep an ear open and if we never heard coyotes to let them know. We are outdoors people but did not grow up with this much wildlife around and our neighbours take good care of us. Education and such.

They also say that the wolves will survive regardless of how many they shoot (oops ... harvest)  ;)  as you only see a few of the ones out there and the ones you see are the problem ones. The rest stay out of sight.

Banff National Park has had how many deaths due to Grizzlies? I don't know where the exact stats are but it seems we read several stories each summer about another hiker taken out. Harvest all the Grizzlies? Or just learn to leave them alone when they are in the territory where they belong?

Anyway I'll keep the powder stick around for anything wandering near here and keep reading this thread as many of you have good education due to your proximity to the creatures. I love wolves and love it when my hair stands on end when I hear them howl but they won't survive near my residence or corrals.

   Grizzly, that last sentence might be the best thing I've read on here.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on January 16, 2015, 10:06:14 AM
They have not announced why Quebec in the north is loosing their caribou heard, but we can guess I suppose what might be helping it decline.

  Over grazing, numbers have yo-yod for ever, they are at the low end of peak and climbing. twenty years ago they where at the peak of the peak. Only so much lichen to go around and its not like it grows overnight .....

Last night my girlfriend let our dog out around 3:30 am, and there was a pack of coyotes in the .treeline,which is about 100 ' away from our back door. They tried to surround my doog and atleast one chased my girl and dog into the house. I heard her screaming to grab my gun cause of "the wolves". I grabbed my 30/30 and ran out the door. The sound of the howling sounded just like the  rrecording a few pages back.

The neighbors little dog was tied up outside, hes one of  those yappy little dogs,or I should say was, I heard them pounce on him. Our backyard is a mountain that butts up to harriman . State park in NY.
I ve heard them howling in the distance but never had them this clise to the house

Quote from: JIM GORMLEY on January 19, 2015, 06:07:15 AM

The neighbors little dog was tied up outside, hes one of  those yappy little dogs,or I should say was, I heard them pounce on him.

That poor dog had no place to run. Not that it really mattered. They might of got the poor thing anyways.
I had a dog that we would let just run around here. He would go out in the woods. I would hear the coyotes here too. I was always concerned that they would gang up on him.

GRAND RAPIDS (AP) -- Wolf attacks in Michigan's Upper Peninsula killed at least 26 cattle and 17 hunting dogs last year.

MLive DOT com says the numbers come from the Department of Natural Resources, through December 22nd. The number of attacks, 35, was higher than the 20 reported in 2013.

   That seems like a high number of hunting dogs, do you use dogs to hunt deer up there?

No, those are bird dogs I would guess. Wolves have attacked bird dogs on several occasions that I am aware of in MN (while hunting, i.e. the hunter was right there.)

It's never been legal to run a dog on deer in Michigan. I've heard of those incidents here too, where a Grouse hunter hears his dog being killed and he can't get to it to help.

alot of dogs in wisconsin are killed when running bear during bear season. back when the states had some control,there were areas of the state that was designated as "wolf territory" meaning if you lost a dog to wolves in those areas  the state would not re emburse the hunter for the lost dog.
i was poking around the farm yeasterday and found wolf tracks as close as 60 yrds. behind one of my hay barns.

Around here we have neighbors that use greyhounds to run coyotes, wonder how surprised the dogs would be if they jumped a wolf instead.

Quote from: WmFritz on January 20, 2015, 07:04:41 AM
It's never been legal to run a dog on deer in Michigan. I've heard of those incidents here too, where a Grouse hunter hears his dog being killed and he can't get to it to help.

Actually it was done way back in our states history, as well as in other states, mostly by market hunters.   In 1887, a law was passed making it illegal to use dogs or lights for taking deer in Michigan.

Can someone explain to me how or why a large wolf population will decrease the coyote population? I have heard this a couple of times but do not understand why. Coyotes are usually hunted in this area with hounds.

QuoteCan someone explain to me how or why a large wolf population will decrease the coyote population?

My understanding is that the wolf won't tolerate coyote's and kill them. Thus the decrease.

DonT,  Check out this link.

http://www.woods-n-waternews.com/Articles-In-This-Issue-i-2012-05-01-211756.112113-WOLVES-VS-COYOTES.html

Keep in mind this was written a couple of years ago.  Wolf numbers, in certain areas of the UP,  have increased much more drastically in recent years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0

Wolves take coyote down.

Quote from: beenthere on January 20, 2015, 04:34:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0

Wolves take coyote down.

That's what I was thinking!

Coyotes become wolf food!  digin_2

I was always under the impression that the two were arch enemies however...  In the Northern Lower Peninsula of Michigan it has been shown that the two will co-exist and hybridize.  Apparently when the wolf population is low they will cross with coyotes.  DNA testing was done on pups from the area.  As I remember the mother was a wolf and the father a coyote. 

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12205-256981--,00.html

I guess the DNR is now denying the presence of wolf/coyote hybrids in the NLP.  I've got friends who live in the area that will argue the point aggressively.

http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2013-02-12/dnr_37064722

http://archive.freep.com/article/20120722/SPORTS10/207220532/Eric-Sharp-Is-hybrid-a-wolf-or-coyote-

Thanks for the reading guys.We do not have  many wolves in this part of Ontario mostly coyotes.Are coyotes hunted with hounds in other areas?

 DonT
To put it simply wolves are very territorial. They will drive out all competition (including other wolf packs) . Wolves are bigger than coyotes so the coyote has a simple binary decision leave or die.
Al

Coyotes are hunted and chased with dogs in my area.   

Quote from: Randy88 on January 20, 2015, 11:08:36 PM
Coyotes are hunted and chased with dogs in my area.   

Here too... not enough though.

The eastern coyote is a hybrid between the wolf and western coyote. So they will mix to a degree but generally wolves do drive out the coyotes. I've read studies done on them showing some in Maine were over 80 percent wolf. But don't call them wolves for obvious reasons. When you see 60 pound coyotes you know there's more than coyote genes in them.

Ccoyotes around here have crossed with feral dogs. Some of them are quite large..There's open season on them anytime any way...

Here's a pair my neighbor shot and hung on his fence last month.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10074/coyotes01.jpg)

Quote from: pineywoods on January 21, 2015, 10:20:42 AM
Ccoyotes around here have crossed with feral dogs. Some of them are quite large..There's open season on them anytime any way...

My Wife has a two year old female Standard Poodle. Since the day we brought her home, this pup thinks it's her duty to (playfully) clobber on my 80# male Lab.  Her other favorite pastime is squirrel hunting. She stares out the windows all day watching and if she see's one, her whole body quiver's.

Our cabin is surrounded by thousands of acres of forest and when we're there, I let her run our 30 acres. She stays busy all day scratching at old stumps and sniffing around. I've teased Vicki when her dog hasn't checked in for awhile, that she's hanging out with her Coyote boyfriend. But, I  always worried a bit when she's out of sight, what would happen if she runs into a Coyote. She topped at #40 and is a lean, mean, running machine. Last August I found out.

I was hanging a curtain rod at my FIL's place which sits in the middle of hundreds of acres of farmland. It was about lunch time and Vicki started screaming my name. Then the dogs name. Then back to me. I ran to the back deck where she was hollering from and see Zoe hopping up on her hind legs to poke her head above the Soy beans, then disappear. The beans were waist high. This kept repeating... Zoe was obviously looking for something. I look at Vicki and her arms are flailing. She's in tears and can't spit any words out. Finally, ''there's a Coyote out there in the beans.''.

Vicki and Zoe were sitting on the deck and a Coyote had come trotting along the house from the front yard. When Zoe saw it, she bolted after it.  Vic said Coyote was about the same size as the dog, but Zoe was running it down. The house is maybe 200 yards from the edge of the beans and Zoe almost had it by the tail when the Coyote made it into the beans.

I don't know if she thought she was chasing a playmate or if she meant business. She plays rough with other dogs, but has never bitten any. At least not hard enough to break skin. Just playful bites.  The squirrels don't get off so easy though. She's killed a couple Pine Squirrel's, at least one Chipmunk and a fat Fox Squirrel last month. She paid for that one with two big bites on her nose  before he met his demise. I figured the least I could do was eat that chubby guy for her and I did.

How topical eh? Showed up on my facebook tonight. I didn't watch the news the last couple days so I missed it when it broadcast.
http://www.9and10news.com/story/27886521/dnr-wolf-attacks-doubled-in-michigans-upper-peninsula-in-2014

The comment from L. R. R. Hood following the story got me to chuckle.  :D

has any one had any more trouble with them

i got tracks going inside my hay shed which is really getting close for comfort, i'm hoping they are going for mice or other small critters. i hope :) calving season is aprroaching so, i'm going to be vigulant this spring

they are doing this at night I take it    and I understand why you don't have the yuppies  involved  :)   how does one dare to walk around your place or anyone elses place out there  for that matter after dark    the only thing good I can see about having them around is the night crawlers don't steel your things or do they

read an article in the local paper how wisconsin has formed a "save the wolf" group , in the article they stressed how non leathel methods work . they call it fladgery which by putting flags on the fences when the wind blows the wolf will be scared and run off. serious,i cant make this stuff up :) my though is most wolf activity is a night so ,the flag idea most likly wont work.
the other thing they want the state to do is re emburse the farmer for lost animals. my opinion i don't want to be re embursed, its not the occasinal lost animal its the lost weight gain from animals constanly being nervous because the wolves are in the close proximity. that number you cannot put a price on.
yesterday morning i noticed one of my herd of younger buffalo had broken thru one of their fences,this happened to this group a couple weeks back, my speculation was a pack move thru a little to close and spooked them.  my point to all this rambling is,wolves are a real threat to life as i know it,and urban people or people who are so far removed from the day to day dealings of wolves don't have clue what type of monster they want to protect.

 ROL, the Federal judges from DC and fruitloops from Dane county (my folks live there so not them  :D) want to make rules regarding a subject they no nothing about! Unless you live in close proximity to the vermin that is the gray wolf, you shouldn't be able to make laws regarding them. It would be like you and I starting the SAVE THE ALLIGATORS FUND, and demanding that all reptiles in florida or where ever they live be allowed to live in your yard or pond, and if they walk up to your porch and eat your poodle, tough cookies, they have a right too, thats how crazy this has gotten. When the wolves got put back on the E S list, the law states that if a wolf attacks your pet or livestock, you cannot harm them, just let them finish and you may be reimbursed if the state has money left, wow what a crock. 2 hounds have been killed within 10 miles of my house in the last 8 weeks, the 3 S's only help so much. They are bringing the Elk from Kentucky this month, no idea how they are going to survive with wolf population, the clam lake herd sure hasn't been able to grow, it will be the same problem here!  :-\

Was up late last night, had to finish reading this thread. It was like a book I could not put down, full of incredible information with a terribly sad theme. It is pathetic when folks lives are dictated by people who have not a clue to reality and their decisions are based on money or votes.
One thing I would like to add to this. Most every year the red fox have a den nearby. When the coyotes come around the fox hang low or leave. When the black bear comes to snack on my crops for a month or so you will not see hide nor hair of the coyotes, and the fox are back. My guess is the bears claws have nailed a few yotes, the bears claw tore up one of my dogs once. I suspect the dog had his eye on the bears mouth, never saw that paw comin around. Was wondering if any of you folks have seen this type of behavior with the bear & the yotes?
Bob

I have bear and coyote both as well as moose, tracks of all 3 year around. The coyotes are fewer numbered at the moment because they were trapped this winter. But that will be temporary, as others will soon move in. The foxes are quite common around to, will see their tracks all winter along fence rows and field edges. Sometimes a fox den made in an old ground hog hole  in the back yard. I suppose ground hogs are good for something, food and dens.  ;D

    It would take some really dumb coyotes or extremely fast bears to wipe out the coyote population, and coyotes aren't known for being dumb.

Swamp-

Do you think a 15 pound fox is going to take on a 8-10 pound ground hog.  I think that foxes are smarter than that.

this morning when i walked out to bring the cows into the feedlot it was darker than before the time change, behind the barn about 100 yrds the pasture has some brush piles. anyway i was maybe half way out when i noticed a wolf standing maybe 50 yrds from me, it looked like it was eating on something. i was able to walk a few feet further before spotting me, the wind was in my favor so i didn't get winded.i took a couple pics with my phone but they don't really show much . after about 5 minutes he moved more into the brush where i could only get a few glimpes here and there. later i drove in the area with my skidsteer(not wanting to leave my scent) it looked like a racoon? he was eating on.
i believe it was alone but, no for sure. given what i saw this morning i hatched a plan ;D

Red foxes definitely eat ground hogs and use their dens to by opening them up some more. I've even had foxes sneak up behind me in fields within 20 feet. Plus hop in the darn car at the grocery bags when a door is left open and me lugging an armload in the house. Brave, I guess. :D

I would toss pineapple rinds out on the lawn and the groundhogs would come eat them. One was real brave, just once, he wouldn't move off his patch of rinds, so I grabbed the water pale from under the downspout of the eaves trough, and gave him a change of mine. Foxes always like chicken and turkey carcasses to, so the odd ground hog taken for a meal by the fox isn't bad. ;D

Red oaks dose shoot shovel sut up have any thing to do with your plan? round here it dose

I know foxes use and enlarge the groundhog dens.  I've seen that here at home.  I just pictured the fox as a fairly lightweight dainty hunter that prefers moles/voles/and small game.  Ill bet a groundhog, backed into his burro, can be fairly formidable.

Quote from: SwampDonkey on March 09, 2015, 04:15:53 AM
I have bear and coyote both as well as moose, tracks of all 3 year around. The coyotes are fewer numbered at the moment because they were trapped this winter. But that will be temporary, as others will soon move in. The foxes are quite common around to, will see their tracks all winter along fence rows and field edges. Sometimes a fox den made in an old ground hog hole  in the back yard. I suppose ground hogs are good for something, food and dens.  ;D

swampdonkey  you EAT groundhog? :o Here i was thinkin i was the only one. my grandparents loved it so we had it regularly when i was growing up, but the coyotes moved in and they are hard to find now. >:(

my brother killed a 65 pound male coyote here about 2 deer seasons back. i will try to find a pic and see what you guys think if its coyote or cross with something

Our eastern coyotes are quite a bit bigger than a desert coyote you watched on Walt Disney. ;)

A ground hog is pretty dumb, and doesn't take much to kill one. I used to take them out by sitting near their den and with a palm sized stone at the ready. If I didn't get'm the dog would dig them out of their hole. They do a lot of chirping but they aren't very tough. The dog used to break their neck by shaking them like a rag. ;D

My Boo-Boo would kill them,He was not much bigger than a fox. First time he did it,I was shocked. He would hunt the stone walls for them and find one in the wall and start to bark steady. I would come and tear the wall apart. Woodchuck would make a run for it,but would not get far. He would flip them over real fast and bite thier neck. I have no idea where he learned that from. He was part golden and terrier. Terriers are a rodent dog. The SIL dog was bugging him one day and he flip that dog over onto it's back and jumped on the dog. That dog found out who the boss was. Scared me,because I thought he was going in for the kill.  ::)

goose
i'm knodding my head  up and down ;D

Maybe I don't get the 3rd S and what it stands for...  just sayin...

Like the gangster on a Warner Bros cartoon said, "shaddup shut'n up"

 ;) ;)   ;D

The doctor is right about the woodchunk getting trapped being a fighter. My Father use to  set up leg holes traps many years ago. Yes kids would go check the traps with a club or baseball bat to hit them on the nose if they was caught. We would do the hitting than go get my Father and he would get them out of the traps and reset the traps. They would come right at us when they was trapped.
But as I posted,I would move rocks off from the wall and they would just stay there. Once I picked up a flat rock and they it was just lying there. Most times they knew what happened and try to run off.

   Good one Beenthere, that third S seems to be the hardest for most people.

no its not hard but, here is really what the 3s's stand for when it comes to wolves
1)shoot
2) shoot
3)somemore
now if a person was to take pictures and post it on social media well, that has the possibility of getting a visit by said law inforcement :)
i can hear the chant now" gray wolves matter"  ;D
in all seriousness if your house gets robbed you call the cops, if you get raped you call the cops, if your idenity gets hacked you call the cops. i'm constantly battling wolves,lost animals,lost revenue,lost sleep, all i can do is nothing? nope, done doing nothing long time ago and i'm not bashful sayin that either. stand your ground law,in my view pertains to farmers also :)

Red oaks there is a lot of that 3s s s around here too