Logger damage to residual stand

[Autocar]

 Association  :D

[coxy]

Association  :D

hey I like the first one better I think it fits him  :D :D 8) 8) 8)

[yorlik]

We just have not been able to deal with this logger.

Tom,

PLEASE tell us WHO this logger is AND JUST AS IMPORTANT, WHO your forester is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE!!!

I understand you may feel you should not say their identities for some reason:  perhaps in fear they will find out and do you a worse job? 

PLEASE if you at not going to publicly list these two guys names, could you at least private message ME with their names?

The rest of us around you here NEED to know this info.  We just finished similar but smaller scale EAB marking with my picked consulting service forester from Lebanon - just up the road from you.  As a certified tree farm, master tree farmers, we figured we knew what we are doing - but obviously there is chance of major problems.  We have various good walnut & some 'super vaneer walnuts' in our woods we & a Fairfield vaneer company are watching - if we get a yoyo like you have in here and they damage those!  One of these trees is worth more than our whole EAB harvest!  There are only a few SW OH service foresters so I am VERY worried we may have the same problems as you!  And I sure as heck don't want to pick THAT logger! 

PLEASE help us other locals with who these folks are!!!

[RayMO]

Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.
Human nature causes us to see the worst when we are not happy with something or someone and just the reverse for the opposite .

I have passed on a few good jobs because I could tell their would be no satisfying the land owners. Had a buddy start a job and the owners wanted them to start with a big nasty water oak at edge of lawn and after he dropped it and pulled top and all away from lawn as a favor to owner the owner had the gall to hand him a rake and insist he clean up his mess. After the discussion was over my friend loaded up and told the owner to cut his own timber .

Then their are loggers that can make a bigger than necessary mess out of any job  ;D  Leaving trees in creek or across boundaries is a given NO-NO period. And delays in fixing any damage to fences also a huge NO-NO so thinking your logger lacks in some areas for sure.....

[Puffergas]

Wow, beautiful woods, level, dry and room to work. But I don't like the debarked trees..!! Myself I would have cut more of the smaller stuff and left more of the larger stuff but a pro I'm not.

[Tom_Averwater]

Tom maybe I missed it but I will ask again is the logger a Ohio Master Logger and is the consultant forester a member of the Ohio Forestry Ass ?

I got the forester's name off of a list that Tim Wilson ,our state forester gave me , as for the logger being a master logger ,I have no clue . He came with  a good recommendation from the forester .  Another forester from Lebanon , Ohio was too busy at the time .

[Jeff]

Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.

You make me laugh. I'm pretty sure we can take Tom for his word that it is bad. He"s been a member here well into his second decade. He deserves our respectful help and input.

[CuddleBugFirewood]

It is a shame.  Tom did what was right and hired a professional forester to help oversee the harvest.  It is really disappointing that he got this result. 

My gut tells me the logger probably overbid and is taking shortcuts trying not to lose to much on the sale.  I have had foresters tell me "so and so had better markets".  But I don't believe that to be the case in many instances.  I had one vetren buyer tell me he no longer bids the sealed bid sales because most every time someone pays 20 percent to much.  I don't bid enough to know if this is true but it's what he said. 

it's bad business to leave an unhappy landowner.  Sorry Tom and I wish you luck on getting some kind of closure or compensated for the damages.

[barbender]

Those leave trees that have 50% of the bark rubbed off 5' high is unacceptable in a high quality hardwood thin. That and the picture of the "timber faller" hel0s me make an educated guess about what kind of operation this is.

[beenthere]

Tom
Is your contract with the forester, or with the logger directly?

What are the responsibilities of the forester in this operation?

And a couple times you have mentioned your brother talked to them.  Is your brother holding the contract, or both of you?

[yorlik]

Tom maybe I missed it but I will ask again is the logger a Ohio Master Logger and is the consultant forester a member of the Ohio Forestry Ass ?

I got the forester's name off of a list that Tim Wilson ,our state forester gave me , as for the logger being a master logger ,I have no clue . He came with  a good recommendation from the forester .  Another forester from Lebanon , Ohio was too busy at the time .

Tom, I again understand you do not want to tell who these characters are.

BUT think of US - the OTHERS around here that are in the SAME boat.

WHY in the name of heaven are you protecting the logger and forester????? 

PLEASE help the rest of us NOT get into the same boat as you!  PLEASE give us the benefit of your experience here!

PLEASE!  PLEASE!  GIVE US THE FORESTER AND LOGGERS NAMES!

[Jeff]

I am sure Tom will give you the information in a personal message. It would be foolhardy to be posting the guys name and business and stuff publicly.word can get around without having to do that.

[Tom_Averwater]

Not all that terrible considering the pics were taken to show the job in its worst light. Always at least two sides to any issue and hard to know from a distance just how bad or not bad the situation is.

You make me laugh. I'm pretty sure we can take Tom for his word that it is bad. He"s been a member here well into his second decade. He deserves our respectful help and input.

Thanks Jeff , I appreciate your support
. They worked Saturday and Sunday as we are supposed to be getting bad weather tomorrow . Our driveway is a 1/4 mile long and then they have to drive thru a yard.  If it gets wet I'll just wait for them to bury a semi in the field as they are running on top of the beat down fescue grass. They gotta go about 200 yds. And then make a U-turn to come back out . 
I speak of my brother as this is our family farm where we ,( 3 brothers) ,grew up . He works there fixing small engines for a living . I am the trustee of our dad's trust that we now own .  The contract is with me .He is just as interested in this as I am .  Our young kids love to play in the woods , we are old parents . 
And Yorlik , You have mail !

[keen]

 Very poor quality work done by the logger and by the forester by allowing them to do it. In a high quality hardwood stand like yours those trees should of been topped and pulled out separately. To see so many skinned up trees in an area shows they put in very little effort to prevent damage. They cost you a lot of future revenue with their poor work quality and the damage they caused which is a shame. The trees around the fences should of been cabled over to prevent the damages and would of also saved the loggers time instead of cleaning the mess up later. You're in a tough stop now with both the forester and logger not listening to your concerns. I think you took the right steps by setting up your harvest it's too bad the people hired aren't capable of doing their job.
If you decide to do future harvesting you should make a list of things you want done to help prevent damages. Topping trees before skidding...etc Also if you go with a forester or logger ask to view some of their previous jobs. If they do good work they will be happy to show you.

[lopet]

I was reading this post from beginning and thought I stay out of it, but now at page 10 I have to support member Cuddle Bug Firewood. I think he's absolutely right, the logger probably found out that the quality isn't there or neither the board feet so he puts pressure on his guys  and probably tells them  he's gonna lose money on this  job, that forces them to do all the short cuts.  If I got this right hes bit was twice the money from the second best bid. Don't know if it was intentional and that's the way he's doing business or it was just a underestimation.  It's sad but it happens all the time with margins are getting slimmer and equipment is getting bigger.  Gotta go go go.   

[treeslayer2003]

I was reading this post from beginning and thought I stay out of it, but now at page 10 I have to support member Cuddle Bug Firewood. I think he's absolutely right, the logger probably found out that the quality isn't there or neither the board feet so he puts pressure on his guys  and probably tells them  he's gonna lose money on this  job, that forces them to do all the short cuts.  If I got this right hes bit was twice the money from the second best bid. Don't know if it was intentional and that's the way he's doing business or it was just a underestimation.  It's sad but it happens all the time with margins are getting slimmer and equipment is getting bigger.  Gotta go go go.

could be he took the forester's numbers and didn't look at it himself..........his mistake.
i keep going back to the forester here......to heavy a cut to be considered a selection........to small of timber. i think they both just want all they can get on this harvest and the land owner is out of luck.

yes look at past jobs. every one around here knows my work and others i have cut for. surely it is this way other places. the high number big outfit is seldom the best management option.

[barbender]

I would have to agree with the assessment that the forester is the real problem here.

[Corley5]

I'd be talking to the Local Conservation District or Ohio DNR and quite possibly an attorney.

[tj240]

the pictures do show some neglect to the residual stand. but the job doesnt look that bad for the amount of wood marked unless some of the paint is for leave trees. i noticed about three colors of paint. i take pride in my work ,but the job i just finished, was 20 acres with about 90 to 100 thousand feet of logs not counting pulp. i did my best but when a tree falls it makes a mess, no matter how much clean up you do.in spots it looks like a bomb went off, i will go back in if needed, but the lo seems happy.  i think you job doesnt look that bad, but its your land and if you arent happy, the logger and forester should make you happy. good luck.

[Nemologger]

If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.

[treeslayer2003]

If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.

+1

[yorlik]

If you hired a forester to manage your harvest, then that's what he should have done. I too think the blame lays on the forester. I have cut forester marked jobs where the clown never came back any during the harvest. They got there 10% and were never heard from again until they had another sale to sell. They preach the "call before you cut" theme but only to line their pockets. I guarantee I can get a landowner more for his timber and leave him happier after the harvest by leaving a forester out of it.

+1 too but....

Although I totally agree with your and others comments that in this case it is the forester's problem to not have intervened and stopped the continuing damage, the consulting service forester CAN and should be invaluable to a timber sale - for someone not in the industry, like us land owners. 

As in any other field, there are bad apples.  I have no doubt you do a fantastic job, and of course, if I somehow KNEW that, I WOULD save 10% by not paying that to the forester.

Unfortunately, like the forester, there are bad loggers also;  this post is case in point.  Not being in the industry, we sellers cannot know who is good and who is not, so we rely on a potential neutral third party called a consulting service forester to help steer us away from the bad ones, and, depending on how much we want their continued involvement, make sure the process is done properly.  Their input most often IS well worth their fee.

In our case, as certified master tree farmers, we have taken a lot of training classes that other sellers may not have taken, and we KNOW our service forester from years of off and on contact, have recommendations from other tree farmers of his past work and ethics, and so believe his assessment of the logger we will be picking for our EAB harvest coming up.  We believe his invaluable help to us was marking the trees along with us and helping pick just the right logger for our particular situation.  Then, in our case, we do not require him to come watch or oversee the actual work, although I suspect he will show up a few times anyway.

So even though YOU know you are the best and would not screw a customer like this fellow logger did to Tom, WE don't know that.  So our only recourse is to utilize a supposed neutral expert in that field - a forester.

[Ron Scott]

Always check the credentials of your forester and selected logger. Be sure they are certified professionals and experienced in their job. The forester should check his logger's work at least weekly, and daily it there are concerns with the logger he selected for the job. If need be, the forester should remove a problem logger from the job.

Loggers do change the landscape, so landscaping is part of the logging plan and the forester needs to make the landowner aware of the "planned interim impacts" to the landscape with the logging.

[coxy]

ron this my be stupid but how do you remove a logger that has paid his money up front   will most likely have to try and shut the job down and take him to court  and how do you shut the job down     there have been people here that has paid up front and smashed every thing in sight went to court and the lo could not do any thing because he took a lump sum     lots of lo wont take money up front because of that they do a % so if its not to there likings they tell you to hit the road         thanks coxy

[Roxie]

Up front payment of contracts can be cancelled by paying back a percent of completion of the project.  The forester should be able to calculate the percentage.