You want me to put my mill where??

[Stephen1]

YAHOO!  What an opportunity.
Now don't let the stars get you all dizzy. As someone mentioned about money, big contractors and corporations are notorious for not paying us little guys, we have no clout or Lawyers to chase the money. I have only been in business full time for 1 year and the only problem I have getting my money, is the big guys that tell me they will send me a check. I now take a full days pay in advance before I leave my driveway, for a coporation, and a deposit of $100 from everyone else. I got tired of working for free.
I would have a lawyer draw up a contract, I would want my hourly rate of $80 per hr times 40 hr per week times 6 weeks, $20,000 in trust and released to me every Friday morning before I sawed anymore wood.
Listen to Brucer about how to itemize everything, he helped me tremendously on my 1st paying sawmill job. 100,000+ bd ft of used timbers. 250 timbers 12x16x25'
I was at the job for 6 weeks, went thru on average 10 blades a day, sometimes as many as 25 blades a couple of days. I was paid because the the money came from the owners bank account and he was a good man, and he paid every Friday at noon.
Good luck!
And remember if there are no pictures it didn't happen  :laugh:

[customsawyer]

I would cross my tees and dot my "I's" then jump all over it.

[Brad_S.]

I'll just say OMG! I can see this going wrong in so many ways.
For starters, the bigger the company the bigger the risk for the little guy! They know you see stars and bright lights but they know that they own you in so many ways.
I designed and built some golf range equipment for an international seller. I ended up working a year for free after expenses and they stole my designs! Don't tell me about patents! Again a joke for the little guy.
The only positive things I can add is if you go ahead, have "Replacement Value" stated in any contract for the mill.
Move off site and get paid as you produce.

I skimmed through all three pages looking for someone to point this out! (Edit: I see Stephen1 added the same idea)
Just a few minutes ago I talked with (well, I didn't talk, he did ALL the talking) a former masonry contractor who told me about the many times he was screwed over by large contractors. Some of the stories he told were heartbreaking.
Unless you know this large contractor is a very standup firm (name recognition means nothing...ask subs how honest they are) you may get shafted just as StimW did.
Reputable or not, there is no way I would risk having my livelihood put at risk like that.

[Privacyleech]

DO IT!!!!  8)

[Andries]

Sounds like an adventure . . .
and when you're done with that, and maybe tired of metal in the beams, there's a fresh one waiting for you:

[mikeb1079]

mikeb1079- Are you located downtown? like in the East Main St. area?  I have seen a homemade mill on a trailer in that neighborhood when I pick my wife up from work.  It always catches my attention when I see another mill. Maybe its because I know that there has to be a story behind it.

ding ding ding!   :D :D :D :D :D  yep that's me!  i've been really surprised at how many people have spotted my little homebuilt mill on our quiet little side street.  too funny.  anyways, good luck with this if it goes down!!

[Dan R]

Andries,
Your picture post is a building just off Denman Street in Vancouver is it not ?
I remember when the tree was put up on that building , it wasn't that big.
Dan

[Andries]

Yes it it.
Some poor arborist is going to get a call one of these days.
. . . and maybe a saw miller too !

[Warped]

I'd also suggest a "safety rail" around your work area.

Wouldn't want to accidently walk off the side, or even close! 



Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Warped!

Thanks Chuck!
Now, to see where Russell is.

Russell is almost Dead-Center of St Lawrence County.

It's about 130 miles North of Syracuse!

Made the loop a few years back with the wife for her work. 81 to Watertown, up towards you over to Malone and down to Saranac/ Placid then to Lake George. Very good time on her company's dime.  8). Used to hunt in the Harrisville area, town of Fine.

[OlJarhead]

Oh man this is killing me!  I'd love to see pics of this.

Good luck!

[jmouton]

that a really neat opportunity  ,   i would jump all over that ,  take lots of pictures ,  i would love to come and see it happen  but i have sawmillin to do myself here in mich ,   and its  cold here ,   0  tonight ,,



                                                                                                                   jim

[terrifictimbersllc]

I'd very much try to get the work but also would explore whether it really makes sense to complete the job up on the roof vs. at some other location the company has control of.  Just a suggestion.   See if they'll sign your sawing agreement in advance.  Guessing they won't, but maybe they will, and this will prompt them to give you their agreement.  This will probably be a boilerplate building trades contract having many paragraphs irrelevant to you in it, but which they expect you to sign, some of it conflicting with your agreement.   For example when you get paid, whether you have to add the contractor to your insurance as an "additional insured", whether they'll hold you harmless for others'  injury vs. you hold them harmless for the same, who is responsible for making sure all laws, ordinances and regulations are obeyed, and on and on.   Add whatever of their language you can go along with, to your agreement, and see if that will settle things.  Don't wait till your mill is hooked to the crane to settle this paperwork.   You won't have the luxury of being able to pack up and go home if you don't like what's unfolding.  Best you will be able to do is stage a rooftop "sit-in".   

[Delawhere Jack]

Ride the mill up to the roof, just be sure to bring along a cowboy hat to wave around it they drop it/you!



 

Sounds like a really cool opportunity, lots of good advice posted here to CYA.

[Warped]

I'd very much try to get the work but also would explore whether it really makes sense to complete the job up on the roof vs. at some other location the company has control of.  Just a suggestion.   See if they'll sign your sawing agreement in advance.  Guessing they won't, but maybe they will, and this will prompt them to give you their agreement.  This will probably be a boilerplate building trades contract having many paragraphs irrelevant to you in it, but which they expect you to sign, some of it conflicting with your agreement.   For example when you get paid, whether you have to add the contractor to your insurance as an "additional insured", whether they'll hold you harmless for others'  injury vs. you hold them harmless for the same, who is responsible for making sure all laws, ordinances and regulations are obeyed, and on and on.   Add whatever of their language you can go along with, to your agreement, and see if that will settle things.  Don't wait till your mill is hooked to the crane to settle this paperwork.   You won't have the luxury of being able to pack up and go home if you don't like what's unfolding.  Best you will be able to do is stage a rooftop "sit-in".

Good advice.
I'm sure the mill will attract a lot of attention from other workers as well. I'd take the time and disable it at days end and even remove the blade. People can get nosey and "touchy"

[3Dog]

Just a quick update....well,I dont really have an update.  Some of the parties involved (as some forum members have cautioned)are not convinced that they want a mill on the roof.  We also seem to be about 3 "stories" apart regarding what this project will cost them for the 12,000 lineal feet.  Nobody has backed out yet but, I will continue to let you know whether this sawing job will get off the ground or not.

Again, and again, thanks for all of the informative advice and belly laughs I received reading your posts.

[Hookpilot]

I work in the Defense contracting world and Firm Fixed Price contracts are common. If it is as difficult to get paid by some of these companies as others have suggested; and I have no reason to doubt them, you may want to see if they will go for a FFP contract. Make sure you have it laid out very clear what they want in writing and bid that to them as one cost. Give yourself about 15-20% above what you think it will cost you for risk. Have them pay 50% up front and put the rest in escrow with your attorney. They cant say no if you don't ask. The upside is if you are more efficient you make more money. The downside is if you have a lot of issues come up you will not make as much, that is what the 15 -20% risk is for. The only way I would do this is if I could see the beams so I knew exactly what I was getting into and then had a very clear contract which said exactly what you were expected to do. Just my two cents.

As someone said they may have a very detailed contract they want you to sign. I worked for one of the major helicopter manufacturers and needed my office painted in southern Alabama. The company wanted to send a 17 page contract; the painter didn't have a fax or an email account for that matter. We got it worked out but large companies can be painful with their policies and procedures.

[Evergreen Man]

I don't know a lot about sawing but I do know a lot about cranes and working in high places. Don't worry about your mill it will survive the flight fine. Couple words of caution tho  Make sure there will be low wind the day of the flight, crack of dawn is usually the best time for no wind. Make sure they tie a rope to the mill to keep it from spinning. Is the saw dust an issue? If the roof has no parapet wall to block some wind and they have neighbours around the buildings they might get complaints.

Money wise, I've never seen a big construction company pay any money if they don't feel they have to.
Have fun! ;D

[Chuck White]

Another thing to have in your contract is "Clean-up"!

Make sure that sawdust and slab removal isn't your responsibility.

[StimW]

I work in the Defense contracting world and Firm Fixed Price contracts are common. If it is as difficult to get paid by some of these companies as others have suggested; and I have no reason to doubt them, you may want to see if they will go for a FFP contract. Make sure you have it laid out very clear what they want in writing and bid that to them as one cost. Give yourself about 15-20% above what you think it will cost you for risk. Have them pay 50% up front and put the rest in escrow with your attorney. They cant say no if you don't ask. The upside is if you are more efficient you make more money. The downside is if you have a lot of issues come up you will not make as much, that is what the 15 -20% risk is for. The only way I would do this is if I could see the beams so I knew exactly what I was getting into and then had a very clear contract which said exactly what you were expected to do. Just my two cents.

As someone said they may have a very detailed contract they want you to sign. I worked for one of the major helicopter manufacturers and needed my office painted in southern Alabama. The company wanted to send a 17 page contract; the painter didn't have a fax or an email account for that matter. We got it worked out but large companies can be painful with their policies and procedures.

For starters no company will pay 50% up front. Fact is they haven't been paid yet.
I had to wait 2 years for a final $200. from a customer and that was a federal Building construction and a national company. (Owners had their own jet!)
I hate to come off so negative in this discussion but I have been involved in some of these pit-falls.

[3Dog]

Well folks, I haven't posted any updates because well, I dont have any to pass on.  I think the adventure is over.  I have to thank all of you for sharing in enthusiasm and daydreaming that event potential job carried with it. When I saw Stumpy on Monday, he even said that he would come help me if I got the job!  Makes me wish that I would have gotten the job just to have the opportunity to work with him.

[gimpy]

I just finished reading this thread. Interesting.

Even though it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore, here are my thoughts;

I wouldn't have made it a big deal. Just another job as far as they're concerned. Nothing like appearing like a green horn with a new toy. It would have been straightforward. Hourly (regular hourly rate plus 20%) for x number of hours per day and x number of days per week. Paid every week at the end of each week. I'd have had an advance for 10 boxes of new blades for a ready supply. I'd have been paid at the regular hourly rate for getting it on the roof and set-up from the time I arrived on sight. They'd pay $25 replacement cost for each blade destroyed by artifacts. They'd be responsible for clean up and leftover debris. They'd still pay me for any days that my access to my workstation was shutdown unexpectedly. Lifting the mill to the roof isn't a bid deal. My mill is subjected to more trauma driving on the road than by the lift. It is a Wood-Mizer after all. All of the above would be in a contract and the advance would be paid upon signing.

I'd have insisted on applying a tape (Duct tape?) or painted barrier around the mill with the understanding that no one but me and any helper I supply was allowed inside the line. Professional safety concerns.

Approach these jobs like it's just another job to you and few problems would arise. The cost of this job would be a trifle amount for the company hiring you. Unless they saw you as unprofessional. This is when I'd have Wood-Mizer apparel on at each meeting and each day of work. No funny tee shirts and old baggy blue jeans on this job.

[so il logger]

I just want to say that im not trying to start an argument. That being said are portable mills profitable? Around my area if its not a big stationary circle mill then its not a production oriented operation. Around here moving a mill is a mighty big task. Some farmers have woodmizers and such but i think they saw for personal use. If i can make money tinkering with a lil mill during off months i would take a look at one. Just curious on what i could expect far as footage daily.

[dgdrls]

I just want to say that im not trying to start an argument. That being said are portable mills profitable? Around my area if its not a big stationary circle mill then its not a production oriented operation. Around here moving a mill is a mighty big task. Some farmers have woodmizers and such but i think they saw for personal use. If i can make money tinkering with a lil mill during off months i would take a look at one. Just curious on what i could expect far as footage daily.

Good Morning  so il logger,

Good question,  I suggest you post it to the board as a new discussion thread.

best
DGDrls

[4x4American]

nevermind asked about update then saw up there

[78NHTFY]

3Dog--interesting thread.  Might be good to find out why you did not get the job, so that next time you know whether to either pass (and not waste your time) or do what's needed to snag it.  All the best, Rob.