White oak barberchairs

[mike_belben]

Im new to appalachia and the white oak it grows.  Ive felled a few hundred trees, never had a barberchair.  Today 3 white oak culls in a row did it to me. What is the trick to these things?   Im doing the same "humbolt notch" i pretty much always have.

A while back an old local logger said to me you gotta "match saw em.. Thats what the hillbillies call it"  he didnt describe how. Just said when the buttlog hit the ground there was no evidence of a hinge. The two cuts "matched"

I took it as a sly way of getting a transplant killed at the time but i guess he was being serious.  Anyone know what he was talking about?  Are these guys fully sawing the hinge as the tree falls or what?  Im ready to ratchet strap the butts to keep them together at this point.

[Neilo]

Have you tried a smaller notch or back releasing? I know back releasing is slow.

I am sure others will give you advice specific to that oak.

[mills]

Plunge cut, bore cut ... whatever you want to call it is needed on any white oak leaning or heavy to one side. White oak can be difficult to deal with, and it's too valuable to screw them up. Suckers are contrary about being "directionally fell" as well. It can be an expensive learning curve figuring out how to cut white oak.

[tmbrcruiser]

I'm sure some won't agree with me but I don't leave a full hinge. After the under cut and notch I bore in to leave pins on each corner of the notch. Back cut to form third pin, two wedges up front and two in the back. Cutting the third pin releases the tree, with the wedges you should not have trouble with getting pinched. The cuts will be flat on the stump. Some times the pins will tear a little from the sap wood but the mills don't usually have a problem with this.

You will figure out a style of cutting that works for you, good luck and be safe.

[DMcCoy]

Here is a link to a FF post about different cuts.  I have used some of these and they can save you hind quarters.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=69508.0
I'm not too proud to wrap a chain around a tree for safety reasons but you are asking about saving the log.
I don't think the guy was trying to get you killed at all,  I would take his term 'match' to mean matchstick thick hinge.  That is really thin, perhaps an exaggeration to make a point.  But I would never just cut the back from the outside in.
Our barber chair prone tree is Red Alder, it is touchy.  I do a perfectly clean wedge cut, cleaning up any saw cuts to avoid pinching.  I then plunge cut behind the wedge, cut forward until I get the thickness of hinge I want, then cut backwards (the holding strap).  I have had the holding strap split the stump and pull the roots loose under my feet.  A sharp fast cutting saw is almost critical.  I would suggest reading the link I provided, the guys insights into different ways of felling are worth the time imho.

[paul case]

I'm sure some won't agree with me but I don't leave a full hinge. After the under cut and notch I bore in to leave pins on each corner of the notch. Back cut to form third pin, two wedges up front and two in the back. Cutting the third pin releases the tree, with the wedges you should not have trouble with getting pinched. The cuts will be flat on the stump. Some times the pins will tear a little from the sap wood but the mills don't usually have a problem with this.

You will figure out a style of cutting that works for you, good luck and be safe.

This is the way most here cut walnut as it is so valueable and wants to split if it has any lean  to it(barberchair). After you get used to doing it this way it is easy and doesnt take any more time than other methods which I can not seem to master.
The match cut method will still yield some barberchair splits in trees with a lot of lean or super heavy limbs on one side. And it is some dangerous as you do not know which way they may fall when cut loose.
A very good friend of mine, and quite an experienced logger, cuts a very shallow hinge. not really a notch at all on a tree that wants to fall one direction. More like just cutting off the butt flare. Then he starts on the side and cuts all the way around the back. The hinge wood will be all in the sapwood that way  and he says he likes to do this because it never pulls long fibers from the heartwood and the sapwood will break off rather than pull out.
Some loggers I buy from will pull to the landing and then cut to length while the skidder has one end lifted up. They use match cut to keep the saw from being pinched. I use a plastic wedge and make 1 cut. Much slicker and it dont hold mud/gravels as bad on the end.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

PC

[killamplanes]

Bore cut, leave 2 on small trees 3-4 straps on larger trees. It won't pull heartwood that way. Limited directional falling. I cut everything this way. Very popular here. Takes getting use to. But fast and clean. Barber chair doesn't happen.

[Ed_K]

 You won't pull any center fiber if you gut the center from the notch side. you do this right after you make your notch. If you go in as deep as you can with your bar, once you start plunge cutting behind your notch ( leave 10 % of your diameter) it will cut faster than just plunging the back cut. I'm with DMcCoy, as not to be to proud to wrap a chain and binder around a very valuable butt log.

[mike_belben]

Alright, so whittle out the heartwood.. Especially whats in the hinge.   I can definitely say the  heartwood that remained in my hinges caused the trouble.  Ill start small and report back.  Have a few money trees coming up soon.  Will be strapping those just to make sure i can sell that wood.  I dont have enough to waste.

[RHP Logging]

You need to remove as much compression wood in the tree as possible before you cut the tension wood. The compression wood is where the tree splits. Gutting the heart wood of the hinge helps with that. It doesn't matter how you cut it up just as long as you get it all cut up. I almost never bore cut and I can swing some pretty mean white oak leaners that most would think there's no way. And save the butts too.  Also your face(notch) should be wide open. Scratching a little thing in the side is pointless. Might as well not even do it because it effects the tree in no way. Also if you put in a face that is too narrow or shallow the compression will build when it closes and it will split.  Go deep to remove the compression wood.  Then Gut from the hinge from the face leaving a little on the outside. Throw a snipe on the stump to ease the butt even more.  Back cut how you like, bore etc. The main thing is think about where the compression wood is and how to remove it before releasing it. White oak does not have to be difficult. Hickory is the worst in my book but shouldn't be a problem either if you take the time to do it right. The Long fibers in all the chair prone trees really help on the swing when using dutchmens as well.

[Bert]

 Probably 70% of what ive cut in the last 2 years is white oak. You need to bore cut. Cut the notch first. Gut the heart from the notch. Bore cut to set the hinge and work my way around from the bore and release from the back side. Pow!!!!

[Mountaynman]

Bert safest way for sure might take an extra min or 2 per tree but u got a sec to take a deep breath an look at the escape route before you trip it off. I like the three legs where u gut the heart and cut all the sapwood as well

[mike_belben]

Alright well i think im understanding the mechanics of the problem, thanks to everyone for the information. 


Here is a pic of one of the three from day one.  I guess too small of a notch resulting in a hinge containing too much compression wood/ heart wood.








Here is an experiment from today showing some improvement at least.  I borecut into the heartwood from the notch face and whittled out the heartwood around the hinge then borecut in from the sides and created a back strap.  It all  had me a bit alarmed since the entire tree was kinda sitting on stilts.. And ive never hacked a hinge apart before.   Atleast it didnt split like the first few.



Tomorrow i will push my notch back deeper and relieve the stump corner too then try again.    Can we make a general analogy that half the butt is in tension and half in compresion.. like a rope around a sheave?  Is it possible to estimate where that shear line is?

[Neilo]

Hinge too thick in my opinion. I thought they were barber chairing while you cut the back cut, not after when wedging.

[mills]

Neilo is right. Also, open up your notch a little more. Looks like it bottomed out before the hinge broke loose.

[coxy]

x2 on the last 2 posts

[DMcCoy]

x3.  I didn't know you were wedging either.  A 45 degree wedge won't hurt. I agree with the above it looks like your wedge closed before the tree let go causing the chair. I would go deeper with the wedge too.  Be sure your inside corner is clean and sharp - no saw cuts to pinch closed as the tree starts to go over.  If you are falling in the direction of the lean I would thin both the hinges.  I'm still a plunge cut guy for the back cut.  Be careful!  Chaining doesn't take much time.  If in doubt I always chain, little trees can hurt you just as easy as big ones.  Are you wearing a hard hat?  I have been driven to my knees by a direct head hit by a branch that fell off the trees next to the one I was cutting and that was with a hard hat on!

[mike_belben]

The wedges are just to keep the kerf from closing.  These trees have been going over on their own once i cut enough.  None were leaners.. Pretty vertical.  I hadnt wedged any over.  Will try tuning things up today.  Thanks guys

wearing a climbers helmet with muffs and sceen

[DMcCoy]

In that John Vader link - he has a offset double back cut, one way to get a wedge in there to prevent pinching and still able to do a back out cut leaving a holding strap.  Good on the safety gear, I never used to wear it and the older I get the more I wear.  :

[millcreek40]

Not to sound like a smart Alec. Maybe you need a sharper or bigger saw. Not sure what your using ?? If your bore cutting this is not as important but the first photo looks like you notched  it and cut in from the back. Then speed is definitely a factor. Bigger saw & sharp. Work on your less favorable trees first  save the good ones till after some more practice. Everything comes with practice. Good luck & stay safe.no tree is worth get hurt for!!!

[so il logger]

The pictures look like the wedges have been driven in pretty deep. I wouldn't consider that as not wedging them over.

Way too much holding wood, even the one that you plunge cut the heart. Butt log is thrashed

[mike_belben]

I do TSI with a tophandle so yeah those culls were all small saw.  Ill try one with the 395 and cutting right to the last few seconds.

The barberchair pic shows wedges pounded in but the one with tore out corners i cleaned off and inspected pretty close..then laid the wedges back on to just show where i had them in the picture.

I did one more today and got it just about right but for one little tear.  Plenty more trash to practice on.   

[quilbilly]

I'm no expert on oak but most folks in red alder around here put in a big undercut, as deep as you can without getting pinched, then cut in about 4)6 inches on both sides of the back cut leaving the wood in middle back, and cut as fast as you can. I've cut hundreds of alders and only barber chaired one. The one I barber chaired I knew it was going to do it so I had a good escape route planned.

[mike_belben]

So the hinge wood is going back to about the midpoint of the stump? 

Good sig, Amen.

[Ianab]

The classic barberchair is on a forward leaner, where the tree starts to fall while the hinge is still too wide. The strength of the "hinge" is greater than the trunks resistance to splitting, and it lets go. This is when you want to bore cut the back cut, leaving the holding strap at the back to release last.

But I think in this case it's the angle of the notch is too shallow. If it's only ~45°, as the tree goes over, the notch jams closed and tries to stop the tree's fall. Now as the top has built up some momentum, and the hinge is a bit thicker than it needs to be, the weak point is the log itself, and it splits apart like that. Other species you can get away with that sort of cut, because the hinge wood snaps free from the stump, the tree is already at a 45° angle and gravity has taken over, and it falls OK. Oak is a bit stronger, but less resistant to splitting.

Thinner hinge, boring and clipping the hinge etc would reduce the chances if this happening, but I'd suggest the best option would be an open face notch. Then the angle is more like 70-90°. Now the trunk is almost horizontal before the notch closes up, the hinge wood has been bent to heck, and lets go easily, or maybe even stays attached and you have to nip it off with the saw.  Boring out the middle of the hinge, and nipping off the sapwood to stop it tearing away will help too. You weaken the hinge a bit, but it's still enough to direct the fall properly, and it breaks loose easier, at the END of the fall.