General Sawing tips for portable sawyers

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

 Otherwise, worm hole wood goes into the burn pile.    

Can you not spray the worm hole wood and build benches for outdoor use.....or sell it to customers so they can build for outdoor use?
Or not spray and sell it for outdoor use?
Throwing it on the burn pile makes me cry.  :D :D :D

[WV Sawmiller]

MM,

   Thanks. I remember seeing a tip from Mr. Tom who said he put a round hubcap under the front landing gear so he could slide the front around obstacles. I don't remember if he hooked a rope or chain to it and towed it but I could see using a snatch block, cable or rope, etc to help get the mill in or out. 

   I set up about 5' from a man's porch one time and there was only 7-8 feet in front of my mill. Just enough room for him to tow one log at a time to the front of the mill with his little tractor. There was no place to set up a log landing or stage logs in one pile. It was a very nice little one day job.

[Peter Drouin]

 One area we have not discussed much is off set ups. I had a job cutting bridge timbers for a near neighbor. The logs were down a narrow dirt road with a house at the end. There was not a good spot to turn around with the mill connected and the widest spot to saw was a bend in the road. When I got to the bend I disconnected the mill, drove up the road a bit, turned my truck around, and squeezed between the mill and the side of the mountain on the way back so my truck was headed out. The customers helpers and I spun the mill around so the arms were facing the logs and we sawed them there. When finished I backed up, hooked up and went home.

 Keep in mind in travel mode the mill is well balanced you can move it small distances by hand especially if you have good helper. I use an ATV all the time here at home to move my mill. ATVs, UTVs, tractors, etc. can be used to move the mill at the site to spots where you have have trouble driving your truck in. Someone, I think it may have been the MagicMan, mentioned a customer towing his mill with a bulldozer where it was too wet to get a truck in. Just remember, if you can't tow it in there is a good chance you can't tow it out so be clear ahead of time how you will leave when done.

 Mobile sawing means being extremely flexible and you can expect to have to be creative in your set up sometimes.

All that you say about beaning flexible is true, It all depends how far you will go and what you will do to make a dollar. One good mistake and the mill won't be the same ever again. 
I have worked in the driveway before and had to unhook like you said too.
My mill only went where my truck would put it. Not all jobs are easy. :D
It all just boils down to what you will do for money, I have seen some around here will do anything for money. Like, pull the mill with a tractor out in the woods hook a stump and bend the axel. Drop a log from a tractor on the bed and dimple the steel under the adjusting bolt for the bed rail.
I never let anyone do that, all ways use the loader arms. 
When or if you break your mill, I can say the customer won't care.
What I tell you all is things I did and seen, I been sawing since 1987, I'm on my #3 wood mizer, And have cut millions of BF.
 
Not all jobs are a go, New guys will see what works and what don't.
Good luck to all.

Had tail gunners on this one.

[Magicman]

I truly enjoy setting up in totally different places and sawing the wide variety of cut lists for previously unknown customers. 

I never know what will be next but:  Wherever I go, there I am.  

[starmac]

Well I should know for in the next week to two week, but as it stands right now, my mill will be going 370 miles by land then floated another 150 to 250 miles, not sure how far it is by water, is that fer enough to count.
Heck I doubt I even take a pickup.

[WV Sawmiller]

Peter,

   Good point. I never go into a questionable site without a site survey first to determine if I am comfortable taking the mill in and out and working there. 

   I did a job late last summer where I drove to the end of the road to a camp on the river. A few dips and humps but none I considered unmanageable till I got to the house. Just me in my truck for the site survey - no mill till I was comfortable we could get in and out. The last 200-250 yards was too tight between the trees. If we'd had a UTV or ATV there we could have made it but they did not. Fortunately he was on good terms with his neighbor and we set up in his field and worked there. The neighbor even brought over a huge White Oak and helped off load the first trip. Once I finished the guy called me back a month or so later with more logs to mill. Same deal setting up on the neighbor's property only the neighbor wasn't available to help that trip.

[Crossroads]

I also enjoy the portable aspect of milling. I've met some people over the last couple years that have turned into great friends. 

[YellowHammer]

Poston, you are right, it's painful to burn wood.  However, with the exception of specialty slabs or species of wood that are supposed have worm holes which add to their value, all wormy wood gets burned.  None gets sold.  Nada. Not even our low value Project wood.  Even on our relatively high dollar live edge slabs, if there is a single worm hole on a board that isn't supposed to have holes such as cherry, I will cut it out.  Most bug holes are in the sapwood, so if I have a live edge slab with lots of holes, I cut the the sapwood off and sell it as edged lumber.  I know from our sterilization cycle that all the bugs are dead.  However, every woodworking customer has had the experience, or knows someone, who then knows someone who has had the experience of buying wood and having the furniture they built compromised by a bug infestation.  Worse yet, in the day and age of internet, and rapid crosstalk, it's very, very easy to get bad press, and there is nothing that will get bad press faster than being accused of selling bug infected wood.  It's happened to me twice now, one that was trivial and funny, and one got pretty serious but started with a half a dozen old holes in a piece of wood that the cutomer only discovered several months after he bought it, which I didn't catch and remove during processing and it inadvertently got out out on the sale rack.  Upon further inspection, the boards had been properly heat sterilized, but nobody cared about that, only that the guy had bought possibly buggy wood from us.  Of course I gladly traded out his one board with non bug hole wood and the matter was closed.  We learned our lesson.

If I have a very unique piece, and it has, by the grace of Mother Nature, some bug holes that if I remove will cause the piece to lose its uniqueness, I will actually use a bright red lumber crayon and write in big words on the face of the slab "DEAD bug holes" and circle each hole, or cluster of holes.  On the reciept, I will make note of them.    

When I sell large mantels, especially the ones I have hand hewn with my broadaxe, (yes I do that : ) and want to age them to have them develop a patina, I will only make them out of bug resistant species, such as walnut heart, butternut heart, cedar, and poplar heart.  Of course these get heat sterilized before they the get sold, but are highly resistant to bugs.    

Customers are extremely politicially sensitive to chemicals.  They don't want any part of it.  I had a customer a couple weeks ago, in front of a crowd, ask me if any of my wood was sprayed.  When I told him no, he pointed over at a pesticide jug and pump sprayer by the mill and asked what it was for.  I laughed and told him, although I won't spray my wood, I will spray my cows and they appreciate it. :D  

 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

 

Well thats good because I've never heard of a Sawyer burning wormy cows.  :D :D :D

[Peter Drouin]

I don't sell holes either or put stuff on my lumber. 
I don't burn, I chip.  :D  ;D

[Banjo picker]

The only time my mill has been portable is the time when Tim Cook delivered it, and I doubt that I will ever take it on the road to do mobile jobs, but I want to tell all of you that I really enjoy reading about your mobile excursions, and the way you handle the different situations that come up.

Yellowhammer you must have a different kind of cows than we had.  We had Black Angus and they didn't seem to appreciate being sprayed at all.  :D  My horses don't even like it too much, although most will put up with a light spraying. If they are haltered and tied.   Banjo

[WDH]

I have greatly reduced my spraying, too.  My turnover is pretty rapid, so I depend on the sterilization cycle in the kiln to take care of any PPB's that might have gotten into the wood.  Ambrosia beetles are harmless and I do not worry about them.  They cannot tolerate dry lumber and leave any boards very soon after sawing. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Banjo,

   We enjoy the challenge. Some of us even use old fashioned walk beside mills and we accept and tolerate those in our profession who ride in fancy seats with umbrellas.  :D One thing is for sure - it is not a boring profession.

[Magicman]

It is a very rare occasion when I make a pre-sawing visit, and those are only because I happened to be in the area and within easy driving distance.  A few pictures texted to me gives me a realistic idea of what lies ahead.  In over 15 years, I have never pulled the sawmill to a site and not been able to saw.  Yes I have been challenged, but that is what challenges are for.   ;D 

[Resonator]

I don't cry when I throw wood on the burn pile, I see happy firewood customers. $$$ 

[WV Sawmiller]

MM,

   Most of my pre-site visits are pretty close and I can combine a visit with a shopping trip or at least a photo outing and lunch with my wife. You have to keep those women involved or at least happy you know. ;D

   I do need to get the client to send pictures of the ones I can't visit in person. That is a great idea and policy. 

   I had a guy a while back like to drove me crazy for weeks with updates on his progress but when he finally got ready and we caught a long weekend when he was available he had the done best job of log prep and did the best stacking job of any customer I have had. Everything was set up as I had described and asked him to do. Plus his wife was a great cook and insisted we stop for lunch every day and brought out hot cider on the cold mornings and such. At the end it was profitable, fun and me and my wife (she came with me when I sawed the last 3 little logs and moved the mill home) had made new friends. I end up with way more new friends than customers IMHO on most of my jobs.

[Crossroads]

I have driven away from 1 job without disconnecting the mill from the truck. I had a guy that had 2 8'x18" oak logs that he wanted cut into 2" slabs. I explained to him several times the space that I needed to set the mill up and where the logs needed to be in relation to the mill. I had planned on stopping by on the way home from a bigger job since he was an hour away from me. But after 2 months the opportunity to stop by after another job hadn't happened. So, I decided to haul the mill over one morning after graveyard to just get the job off the books. That's when I realize the address he texted me was different from the one he emailed me. After driving around the neighborhood for a half hour I found his house at the end of a "culdisac" which was nothing more than a dead end street with cars lined up on both sides. Then the logs were on the wrong side of his driveway and there was a car in the way. I told him I was sorry but I couldn't get the mill to his logs and wouldn't be able to slab them. After graveyard wasn't the best plan. 

[derhntr]

RE: drag back. I had put on with the mill package. I have only used it a few times. I have the remote command control at front of the LT40 HD. The board return likes to kick the boards off of the beam side of the mill. I went with command control as I figured I get enough exercise with out having to walk back and forth all day .   I like the feature of engaging blade with flip of a switch.

Really enjoying this thread 
 

[tawilson]

Command Control here too. I use the drag back all the time for slabs but I set the return to variable speed till I got the hang of it. Now I'm reaching around waiting for the slab and if it goes the wrong way before it gets to me I've  been able to stop the carriage before it gets off the side. Now to start using it for lumber and slabs to save a step or two as mentioned earlier in this thread.

[YellowHammer]

I don't know why, but WM doesn't supply most of the mills with Dragback fingers like they do the LT70.  If you have a Command and Control, and a dragback arm, then I would very, very (I said it twice for emphasis) highly recommend retrofitting it with a set of dragback fingers (I copied what Bibbyman and WM did), a dragback shoe, and an operator leg shield, all of which are discussed in the Sawmill Modifications Thread.  The dragback arm is a copy of the WM, but the dragback shoe is something I came it with after not being happy with the stock drackback plate, and this one will hold and carry a board all the way to the end of the mill head travel.  No more reaching and dropping.  No more boards suddenly heading off toward your legs.  They come straight back, with no misbehaving.  It will actually push the board onto the waiting pallet.  Also, I came up with the operator shield to provide a little extra safety to protect my legs if a board ever did jump out.  Also, I built an outfeed table, but ended up getting a WM roller table, which I then also modified.

Most of the mods for these components center around here, at reply 1031, but they go on before and throughout the thread.  

Useful sawmill mods in Sawmills and Milling

Also, here is a YouTube video I made years ago, when I got the whole mess working.  I'm not burning through the wood on the video, just chewing through it on a normal day, but the point is that I sawed a whole cant and didn't have to handle the boards to offbear with an LT40.  This will also drag back slabs and flitches.  

Hobby Hardwood Alabama and Woodmizer LT40 sawing red oak - YouTube

Personally, I will not saw without these mods anymore.  I didn't mention these tips before, because this topic was for portable sawyers, and I'm fixed at our place, but since it was mentioned in the thread, I figured I'd bring it up.

[Magicman]

I notice that Baker uses sections of roller chain hanging down for dragback fingers.  It appeared to do a good job with controlling the board.

[Banjo picker]

I use the drag back about 95 % of the time on mine, but I saw alone and have roller tables and I am stationary as well.  It does work better if the logs are cut some sort of square on the far end.  It would be might hard with out drag back.  Banjo

[WV Sawmiller]

  Well, I noted another topic here we have not addressed. It is calculating the bf of the lumber you saw and how you get paid. One of the most important aspects is to be crystal clear the customer understands and agrees to your method before ever starting the sawing job.

  Some people keep a sheet and mark off the size of every board they cut as they cut it. They start by marking the length of each log on their sheet and the sizes being cut under or next to it then put a tick mark every time they cut a board. They tally and compute at the end of the day. I can't do this as I find it takes me too long to make my marks and I forget to mark a board cut or double mark it.

  Other people scale the log before cutting and use the estimate from the scale as what they cut. If it scales out more the customer benefits, if less the sawyer benefits. It encourages the customer to provide good straight, solid logs because if there is waste he pays for it. It probably averages out fair for all.

   Many of us tally at the end of the day/job. This easier if you keep your different sizes of wood kept separate by length and thickness. Then you just measure the width and count the number of rows and compute. Attached below is a simple spreadsheet with formulas to calculate amounts and costs that I made and use. I just plug in the actual sizes and quantities and it does the math. I even plug in my sawing rate and it calculates the cost with taxes, mileage, band damage, etc. I usually just count each row of the same size as if it were one board that width and in the qty field I plug in the number of rows and it calculates the size/cost.

  When there are multiple sizes in one stack I discuss with the customer and we come to an agreement on an average length and width and use that to compute. Its not completely accurate but close enough most of the time and may be more cost effective than taking a lot more time.

  Many sawyer just saw by the hour. They use the same or another rate for other delays such as stacking or bucking logs, trimming limbs, etc. Basically anything that delays them from sawing should be compensated.

  I mostly saw by the bf but do have an hourly rate I also use if the customer wants specialty sawing that significantly drops my production rate. I may saw a couple of small or short logs on my bf but if there are a lot they get billed hourly.

  One sawyer here said he even has a "per log" rate and charges the same amount for each log and they just tally the number of logs before sawing and make sure they are within the specified constraints to diameter and length. The customer knows up front exactly what his costs will be.

  Another method is sawing on shares. When I have done this (Not very often BTW) we either divide the log pile before sawing, flip a coin to see who gets which pile then I saw his as he wants and I saw mine the way I want them. Or if agreeable to both, just put every other board as sawed on your pile. Be very careful with this process - if there is any perception you are taking advantage of the customer your reputation may suffer irreparable damage.

  Not mobile sawing but since we are talking pricing I am including a mod I made to the sawing spreadsheet for lumber I sell. I offer and give a copy of my spreadsheets to the customer at the end of the job or sale.

[Tin Horse]

I've been reading everything and love all the info. but keep thinking up more questions. I'm a one man show just at it for a couple of years now. I cut and mill mostly my own lumber and sell it. I do slabs and custom. This part is easy to figure pricing by my area. When someone brings logs in to be milled that's where I have trouble. I see some guys(on the forum) charge about $75.00 and some by the bf. No one nearby me to compare to. What's the best way to go? I'm getting faster with the mill but I don't at all like to rush and have a customer looking at his watch. A neighbor asked the other day what I'd charge to do a about a dozen pine logs and I said $75.00/hr. He didn't like that and said "but I'll bring help". So I told him it would go faster. He didn't get it. I'm supplying my labour; a mill; a backhoe ( if needed) and a tractor with loader. How much less should I charge? He didn't consider the value of his lumber.
Is by the bf better and fairer? I think  I can relax a bit and even calculate a quote  prior. I can also focus more on the milling.
I love to work but not gonna rush at jobs anymore. Any help on this I'd really appreciate. Is the price by the bf milling hardwood different to softwood?
I want to be clear and fair to customers. 
Thanks in advance.

[WV Sawmiller]

TH,

I would look at other heavy equipment operators in your area and compare what other operators with equipment with similar acquisition and maintenance costs and who have comparable years of experience operating that equipment charge for their services. What does an experienced backhoe operator charge for use of his equipment and his services? Somebody else may have a better equipment to compare too.

Also look at your risk. If, due to a mistake or your negligence, you destroy or damage a log and have to replace it what would that cost you? I assume you have liability insurance in case you back into his truck or someone gets hurt on your place but replacing a log probably is not covered due to sawing error but probably would if there was a fire at your place.

I like your response to the customer about him providing help making the job go faster and saving him money. Telling him to be sure the logs are properly trimmed and bucked will also save him time and money.

Is BF pricing fairer? To who? BF or hourly are both fair if properly explained and agreed to. The big advantage to bf pricing is people can understand better up front how much it will cost them. They don't know exactly how many bf/hr you will produce. All you can say is "Based on my experience I normally produce about this much" but we all know that every log cuts different. If they bring you top quality logs that you can make good production you make more money by bf. If they bring you small, crooked logs with a lot of waste you work harder, use more time and make less money.

With bf pricing the client can predetermine a stopping point his budget will stand and tell you to cut to his cut list then stop. Stopping at a point on hourly sawing may not leave him enough lumber to finish his project or may result in more than he needs.

 Don't let any customer coerce you into sacrificing the quality of your services. Your reputation is more important than short term cash. Your reputation is your long term security.

 Supply and demand will help you determine if your pricing is proper for your market. If too high, they will not come. If too low you will go bankrupt while working yourself to death. Keep up with your costs and determine your rates on that and what you require for decent wages. Good luck.

   Addition - you asked about different price for sawing softwood vs hardwood. Some sawyers do this. I do not. Costs my customer same to saw his expensive hardwood as his wormy half rotten pine. Again, as long as you both discuss and agree on pricing it is fair. If you want to establish different pricing you should know what your personal costs and capabilities are and price accordingly.