veneer grade log

[Brad_bb]

What is a cat face?   Also, you can have a perfectly clear looking log, but if you were rotary veneering it, eventually you will get down to a diameter of the younger tree where it may have had some branches that self pruned.  Do they subtract a certain dia for the limit of what they can veneer?  Or is that just built into the pricing?

I'm always curious what sawyers pay for Walnut logs, especially the seconds like Yellowhammer buys, but I know many may not want to divulge.  Just curious how high people go and are still profitable?
I'm small time so I look for deals on Walnut where I can.  That includes yard trees and farm trees.  Since I started in 2015, I started out paying $1/BF and $1.50 if delivered or for the better logs.  I haven't bought any in the last 2 years now, so not sure I could still get away with that with how everything has gone up.

[stavebuyer]

Doyle was designed to penalize small logs for several reasons. 

In most species FAS lumber needs to be 6" in width and 8' in length and cannot contain the pith. There are no FAS boards in 11" logs. !2" logs won't even make a good 7x9 tie unless it has a flat side or oblong shape. One you take the jacket board off a 12" log you will often be into over-grown pin knots in many species. Juvenile trees need several years growth after all the limbs have been dropped before they develop any quality lumber. A 24" log you can keep turning and sawing clear wide boards. 11" log you load, open and turn 4 faces and its half gone before you will get 2 5"boards and a 6x8. Most grade mills don't even want a log that scales less than 100'; they get better production, better grade, and less loss from end defects with longer logs. The price sheet tells you they want 12 & longer and 18" and bigger. Yes they make good money on clear 13" 16' but average that against the yield in 16 x24" on Doyle the mill won't get the footage they pay for and will still be selling the heart of that log they paid you $1.20 for $.50 as a pallet cant. Averages out. Good logs are in high demand and I guarantee the margins at the very end amount to smaller % than most would be tempted to invest the 100 million or so you need to run a grade mill through kiln drying and selling lumber net 30. 

Same is true of Staves. Yeah, they can get a few out of 10" logs but quarter sawing gives you 2.5" wide stave at best. They gain on the butt flare but staves have to be knot free. How deep can you quarter a 10" log and still be knot free? They buy that log more or less as an accommodation. Thats why they use Doyle. It rewards logs of the size they need to saw grade lumber and penalizes juvenile logs that will not yield the product they are trying to buy.

[PoginyHill]

What is a cat face?   Also, you can have a perfectly clear looking log, but if you were rotary veneering it, eventually you will get down to a diameter of the younger tree where it may have had some branches that self pruned.  Do they subtract a certain dia for the limit of what they can veneer?  Or is that just built into the pricing?

My interpretation of a cat face is an area of scared bark that has normally healed up damage or maybe an area where a couple branches fell off. Instead of being a single branch or knot, the cat face would be larger area, like maybe 6" in diameter.

The fact that all logs will be lower grade toward the center is assumed in the price. That's why butt logs are more likely to get a premium price. There is normally more clear wood in a butt log than a second or third cut log. This also favors rotary veneer (compared to sliced veneer or lumber) because more clear wood (measured by surface area) can be produced before getting into internal defects. The primary reason rotary mills will accept a smaller diameter log than a slicer mill typically will. 

[mudfarmer]

Im not complaining, theyre providing a market i cant reach yet and have to get their cut.  

I agree. I am not disparaging 3rd party buyers. They provide a market that might not otherwise exist if not for them buying and reselling logs. And many mills get a large portion of their usage from 3rd party buyers.

I continue to be impressed and happy with the "third party"/"middleman" buyer that I have been working with.

As a small time new guy hobby logger it was nearly impossible to even find a buyer that was interested. First I started with the conventional wisdom on the forum which is to line up buyers before you even start your saw. No way, no how, not happening here. If there are not trees on the ground ready to buy why are you wasting my time?? Can't blame them really. This guy said sure send some logs when you are ready.

Every log is scaled graded and tracked by me whether it is sold or kept to saw. If I was a buyer my grading would have to loosen up, and if I was a scaler you would want to cut my thumb off    Maybe could buy veneer since apparently you gotta be real picky 😜 This is to say that I feel like everything has been fair and on the up and up. But I will not send junk logs. Those can get sawn here, rot in the woods or make firewood. Maybe things would not be so good if the quality slipped. He needs to make money too.

His spec sheet has veneer at 12" 4CF 9'6"-12'6" but I am guessing it really depends on what HIS buyer wants that day. All potential veneer is paid at Prime price and then a "bonus" check is cut if it is actually sold for veneer. I think this is a fair way for him to hedge his bets and minimize risk. Likely will not know the feeling as it is hard for me to get a Prime or Veneer log out of cull trees!

[Larry]

One thing to watch with veneer logs.  Here, everything is bought on Doyle.  Using a bandmill, the overrun is huge on small diameter logs.  Dependent on current prices, one can sometimes make more money by sawing a small diameter low grade veneer log over selling the log. 

To make that choice, you need to know your overrun by each diameter/length.

 

[Magicman]

What is a cat face?

Catface

Also do a forum search for catface and find more interesting reading.

[mike_belben]

A 13 foot long white oak buttlog gets bucked into 4 staves.  If its got a 13inch small end that is 91 board feet international but only 65 board feet doyle.  Ouch.. On $1/bf avg thats $26 a wack deducted by mr doyle.  A $65 log with 91bf in it. Okay.  

This is a real log i had the other day.  If its trimmed back to 3 staves will be 9.75 feet and naturally it will just be called 9 even for payment. Okay fine you can have 3/4 of linear foot for free.

  Its still easy to handle with any forklift at almost 10ft.  At 16 inch diameter x 9ft its got 96 ft international or 81 feet doyle.  An $81 doyle log. The same $65 log with a piece CUT OFF goes up to $81. It does not go up in grade because of a defect removed but because of the taper reduction. But the scale says pay the man more because its a bigger log when you remove 25% of the stave multiples in it.  It does not produce more finished staves it produces less.   


I dont really care what the rationalization is.  If i bring in a longer log it weighs more.  There is more product to recover.  There is an additional whole 4 quarter segment to get staves out of.  It adds weight to my trailer, it subtracts from my 80K DOT limit, it costs more fuel to harvest and haul.  But it GET PAID LESS?  And the mill has to look at the flip side and say wait i get less product and have to pay more?  No way. 


The scale has a fuzzy discrepancy that pits the two partners at odds. 

Every guy with a chainsaw and a ton truck is a stave hunter down here.  You can guess whats depleting fastest. I mean now that walnut is virtually gone from the record prices. 

[PoginyHill]

I believe you'd find a different per M price for the same log scaled Doyle vs International. In the end the log has a certain $$ value, regardless of the method used to calculate its volume.

[mike_belben]

International scale turns the same log to 91bd ft as 4 links or 96bd ft as 3 links so its still backward because of the taper.   not as extreme as doyle.

I get if you are bringing in two defect free oaks that each weigh 3000 lbs and one has taper reducing the width of clear full length boards you can recover, ues the scale should reflect that in the recovery.  Thats not the same as the stave situation.  

No matter which scale is used it pans out like going to the deli with $10 and leaving with more pounds of cheese if its sliced thinner for the same $10.  Sounds great except im on the deli side of the counter and its my cheese.


I will have to reach out for veneer price and spec sheets to see how that pencils out in comparison to selling small clean logs as stave.  Maybe someone has a veneer concentration in my range.

[stavebuyer]

Unloading, scaling, tagging, piling, loading the log deck, debarking all happen before a stave is bucked to length. All more efficient in longer lengths. All those things are taken into consideration by any mill in their pricing including potential over-run. No one offered to buy those logs on INT at $1.20. You don't get to pick the Doyle price and substitute the INT rule. If you want international scale then take 30% off the Doyle price. The log was valued by how many staves in contained and Doyle was the method used to convert that into a board foot price. 

Having bought for Independent at one time (who has some of the harshest grading scaling requirements) I can tell you that stave mills consider 90% recovery rate from Doyle scaled logs to be pretty much the standard. 

Log cost is scale x price=$$.

I tried to help a new logger out one time who needed a job to cut. I was buying timber for a large mill and red oak was hot. I came across a small tract in the middle of an old hayfield. Just about all Red Oak. Maybe 10 acres. Too small a job for a company crew but a nice little cable skidder deal. Level skid, 100 yards at most and our company log truck with knuckleboom would pick it up scaled in the field. At the time would have averaged around $.60 Landowner wanted 60% . Logger said no way, he had to have half. He went down to a river bottom cottonwood job. Cottonwood paid $220 delivered and he had to foot all of the 40 mile haul. But he was happy because he got his half.

[stavebuyer]

You can't sell cheese by pound and then complain if the guy wanting it sliced thin got more slices than guy that want wanted it thick. You want the first guy to pay as much per slice as the second guy did. If you are selling by the slice, then I will take one thick one please....

[PoginyHill]

Yogi Bera was asked if he wanted his pizza cut into 6 pieces or 8. He said, "Oh 6 please. I'm not hungry enough for 8".

[stavebuyer]

As a log seller your job is to buck for $$. Buyers try to reduce a vast number of variables into a page or two of rules, grades, and prices. Occasionally a log comes along that doesn't fit the norm. A log with a swell that increases the scaling diameter when it would normally be expected to taper is a good example. Larger companies often set certain standards that a field buyer is expected to follow. A log might need to scale 13" minimum to get the $1.50 price. A 12'13" meets that spec while 16'12" does not even if the 16'12"has 12'13"within it. Logic says that the 16' log should be worth more; but a graders job is to buy it as is lays. A savvy buyer might buy it as a 12' 13" if that indeed paid more to the seller but might get him flagged in an automated system for a buying 16'12" at the 12'13" price.

In this example lets say 11&12" staves are priced at $1.20 so the 16'12" has 64ft Doyle @ 1.20= $76.80
Cut 4' off the log and it scales as 12'13" 61ft Doyle @ 1.50 =91.50


The log should have been cut 12'6" from the tree and the 4' left on the 2nd log. Yes, the mill would have benefitted the most from buying the 16'12" and getting extra staves. Knowing all the various grades, prices, and markets is a challenge as they can be a moving target.

[mike_belben]

sure a sellers is to buck for money and a buyers job is to get the most product for the money. no qualms there.  

youre kinda glossing over the biggest point.  lets leave dollars entirely out of it.

both scales spit out a smaller number for my tapered log when it is longer, than when i cut it back 39 inches shorter.  same log.  how did it get more wood in it by cutting 40 inch off the length?

every single grain of wood in the shorter one, is still present in the longer one.  its the same log.  the only thing that changes is adding more length.  if ive added more wood on why does the scale go down?    both doyle and international take off board foot.  not talking about anything but the fact that the scales are going the wrong direction.  if i glue 3 piece of firewood onto the same log you arent gonna saw out less stave than you were gonna get before i added them on.  less full length lumber sure, but not less stave. 

unless the calculator app i have is wrong.  feel free to check my numbers above, i used timberlog. 9ft x 16inch vs 13ft x 13 inch.

[mudfarmer]

Was there swell at the 9' mark like stavebuyer was talking about? Excessive taper? 3" diameter reduction in 4ft sounds like a lot. That cherry the other day for instance made an 8'x15", a 10'x14" and then a 8'x13". (Cherry here does have very little taper)

[stavebuyer]

I have never seen a log taper more than inch in 4' unless there is a major fork or huge limb knot. Many times it is hard to even gain an inch cutting off 4' in length. Something is very odd and has nothing to do with the log scale.

[Magicman]

No log will scale more than the top end scales and Doyle penalizes small logs more than the other scales.

I regularly deal with this while sawing although I do not scale any logs.  I very regularly buck off 3'-4' and increase the lumber yield from a log.  I had an Oak log last week that would have been a killer at 14', but we did very well after bucking it to 10'.

[stavebuyer]

Basic geometry has nothing to do with Doyle, INT or any other log scale. The volume of a Cylinder length x 3.14 x the radius SQUARED. Diameter has much greater influence on the volume of a cylinder than length.

[Magicman]

I realize that we are comparing apples to oranges, but my example was geared to my world of sawing.

As I stated, I do not measure any logs with any scale.  My customers want lumber as long as the log and logs will only yield what the top end will yield.  For example, last week the 10' log produced 12 boards but the 14' would have only yield 8, so it got bucked.  It's all about sawing to the customer's cut list.

[mike_belben]

100 years of highgrading leaves behind a lot of parking cones. Huge taper.  I bet i have some pics of worse than what i described. Cylindrical logs are pretty rare for me
 

[stavebuyer]

I have seen plenty of "trumpet logs" but have never seen a log taper that much. You have that much taper you need to hunt up a per ton stave market. They used to buy them by them by the ton in both Waverly and Medon TN but that's a long haul from Crossville.

[Brad_bb]

Maybe I missed something here, but the amount of taper for me depends on how low it was cut.  Is there a standard cut height that must be followed?  Otherwise I've definitely had logs that tapered more than 4" in 4'.

[stavebuyer]

The tree in question was a white oak stave log scaled 13' plus trim in length cut back to 9' plus trim. Hundreds of thousands of trees were measured by the USFS to gather the data that was used to create the form class tables. Average form class(scaling diameter at 16'/dbh=form class is 78 or meaning the average hardwood tree would scale at 16' at 78% of the diameter measured at breast height. Normal tree taper is 1" per 8' of tree height above the 1st 16' log; form class and tree taper variance exist in the first 16' of the tree. At 13' you are reaching the upper limit of tree taper variability.

Hypothetical average form class 78 tree. Tree measured at 4.5 above the ground(DBH) of 20" would be expected to scale at 78% or 15.6" at the small end of the first 16' log. The taper in the butt log in the typical form class 78 tree from 4.5 feet to 16' is  4.4" over the distance from 4.5' off the ground and 16'. Distribute that 4.4 inches equally over the 11.5ft of log run you have a taper of 1" per 2.61' of log length between 4.5' and 16' and that is in the first 16' where the highest amount of log taper exists. A tree tapering 1" per foot of height that measured 16" at 9', 13" at 13' would measure 20" at breast height and 4" at 21'. One odd looking tree.

1" or greater per foot taper in the butt flare, or past a crotch. All the time. Bole taper of an 1" per foot in a grade log 13' off the ground without a major limb, crotch, burl or other anomaly I have never seen. Not even close.

Can tree form class vary? Absolutely. Form classes from upper 60s to lower 80s are common. But the area of contention is how the log scales unfairly penalize tree taper. Do mills that make a short product from longer logs get greater yield and recovery from a butt log? Absolutely and one reason stave log mills often have a separate price for butt logs or may not pay butt log price if the obvious flare is gone like may happen cutting a double or tree above a fence or defect.

Log scale is just a number. Yield is the sawmills worry. The log seller needs to compare pricing of his product(logs) to prices quoted by different mills. If Mill A is making staves and his yield is 90%, and Mill B is making mats and his yield is 150% is of no consequence to the log seller. The log seller needs to know if his log brings more dollars at A or B. It's simple if both mills are using the same scale. Add weight or different scaling rulers and practices(defect deductions/scaling inside vs outside the bark etc) varying log diameter all play into the eqaution.

[stavebuyer]

I am a logger selling Pine logs. Mill A is a circle mill and its main business selling 1" board and batten siding. The mill has 3/8 kerf. Logs are bought on Doyle as is customary in the region. Average log he buys is 10' 16". Since he has 3/8 kerf and only sells even lengths and width's he is lucky to sell the amount of lumber footage he buys as he scaled in the log. He sells lumber for 1.00 per foot so he buys logs at $.70 to have a profit.

Mill B runs a Woodmizer and sells rough cut framing lumber cut at 1 5/8"x3 3/4" and sells by the piece nominal measure(2x4)
He also prices his lumber at $1 per foot (5.35 per 2x4x8'). Since his kerf is thin, his product is thick plus being sold at nominal dimension he sells 1.5bdft of lumber for every log scaled foot he buys. Because of this he is able to pay $1.00 per log scaled foot and still make a profit. This mill does not owe any rebate to the log seller due to its conversion factors.

Mill C is a plywood Mill running a rotary lathe. He sells his product per sqaure inch and has cores that get tossed. He is in the same area so also uses the Doyle ruler but only wants 9'/10' logs to fit his machine and only buys the best logs at $2.00 ft

Mill D is a Pine Chip-n-Saw mil that buys per ton tree length. Depending on log diameter sometimes it equates to more or less than either Mill A or B and doesn't compare with Mill C.

It works out that small logs always bring more at mill D. The best veneer logs need to go to mill C and the remainder bring the most money at Mill B even if they are selling 50% more footage than they are scaling. Mill A has the most accurate scale and worst pricing.

None of it designed to cheat the seller

[Ron Wenrich]

Log price = Lumber price - mfg costs.  That would be the breakeven price.  Lumber price would include all lumber + residue income.  

Mills that work with wholesale lumber don't have very much they can do with the lumber prices.  That's set by the markets.  The only wiggle room remains in mfg costs & residue income.  Many times the profit is in the residue.  Sometimes the yield can be eaten up by the mfg costs.  Time is not a renewable resource.

Not all logs can be mfg with a profit.  Those can either be removed from the product stream, find a more efficient way to process them, find a new lumber market or pay a lower price.  Not buying them is an easy way to remove them from the stream.  Paying a lower price makes it a bit better.  Niche markets can be profitable, but usually are small in volume.  

I worked with loggers for many years.  The most successful ones could pay a good price for stumpage without having to work on shares.  Every one of them had very good markets for their logs.  Veneer was always pulled, with a variety of veneer buyers.  Some logs went to higher end mills.  The lower grade logs went into firewood, pulpwood, or shaving wood.  When they were done with a job, they always left things in good order.