Useful sawmill mods

[Magicman]

My sawmill is set up with two fuel filters; the primary includes a water separator and equipped with a petcock drain in the bottom.  I occasionally open the drain and in 20+ years, I have never seen any water.  The secondary filter is a standard screw on type.

I replace both filters during every other oil change.

[barbender]

No, but my ol girl ('97 model) has a big water separator filter after the tank.

[TimW]

Mine has a water separator  after the tank too, with a drain.  But the fuel pickup (straw) is about a half inch above the bottom of the tank.  Like Magic Man, I rarely see water in the separator.  So you can get water below the pickup and not know it, until you run awhile and the return fuel stirs the bottom fuel up.  Then I sometimes get sputtering. 

I run Power Service in my fuel, but will be changing to Peak Blue Agri Clean additive when I refill the storage tank, which has a sump drain.  Also, when I asked the Yanmar industrial service center what they used, it was the Agri Clean.  He stated it is the best at holding the water molecules together.
I am changing because I think the Power Service, over time loses it's ability to hold the water molocules together at the bottom and the returning fuel stirs it back into small water droplets that do not sink, but enters the engine with the diesel.  It takes about 45 minutes for this process to start.

When it starts sputtering, I can remove the tank and see water suspended in the fuel with no large concentrations at the bottom of the tank.  Another time. when it starts sputtering, I can shut down and remove the tank the next day.  Then I find large globs of water at the bottom of the tank.

This is a Tier IV Yanmar,  spell that as Finicky.  It needs super clean fuel, while my other diesels (1998 to 2003) don't have any problems with a smidgen of water in the fuel.
I have told WM that their water separator does not work 100% of the time, as I can have sputtering and no water in the separator, but the next day have water at the bottom of the tank.
I guess it being 94% humid today doesn't help.

[barbender]

 That's interesting. I've never had a single water related issue with my fuel on my mill. Actually, I don't think I've ever had a water issue on any diesel engine of mine, though I've been around a few. 

 I can see where your Tier IV would be much more sensitive. Sorry I don't have any ideas for a solution.

[doc henderson]

I have transferred gas or diesel to a clear plastic container like a 2-liter pop bottle and let it set.  In a few hours you will see a clear bilayer.  If you are careful, you can pour the fuel off the top and use it.  water in my fuel is usually from storage in a less than perfect container, like missing a cap.

[Hilltop366]

A different piece of equipment (jet ski) that had water issues, the cure was to tip the machine so that a corner of the fuel tank was the lowest point and then remove some fuel from that corner with a pump that has a long intake that you can hold in that low corner.

Like Doc says use a clear container so it will be easy to seen the results. for a pump I used a siphon/pump that had a primer bulb. safer than an electric pump for gas. 

[SawyerTed]

There are a dozen ways to cleanup or polish fuel by pumping it through various filers.   Fuel polishing services are common in the marine industry.  

On a few occasions I've had to build a homemade pump/filter/hose combination to cleanup fuel in a boat (125 gallons tank) or tractor (12-15 gallons).

Sometimes works just to pump the bottom layer out to get the water and gunk out of the bottom of a tank with a12 volt fuel pump setup for that purpose. 

[TimW]

I do understand how to use a clear container for sumping fuel, as I sumped avgas and jet fuel every day for 42 years as an aircraft mechanic.

I have done exactly what Doc mentioned.  But on the sawmill, it is a pain to remove the tank and hoses to empty the tank into a clean bucket, pour the top diesel back into the tank and reinstall the tank, fill with fuel, then prime the system every other day.  I have even gone as far as asked WM why they don't have a sump drain on their Tier IV tanks.  Their answer is there is a drain on the separator. 

All of this is why I am thinking about replacing my plastic tank with an aluminum tank with a sump.  Then I can open the sump drain and let any water quickly drain into a glass jar.  Simple and quick.

[TimW]

Sometimes works just to pump the bottom layer out to get the water and gunk out of the bottom of a tank with a12 volt fuel pump setup for that purpose.

This is exactly why I am thinking about replacing my tank with a tank that has a sump.  Add a quick drain and it is fast as tightening your blade. 

[Hilltop366]

I wonder if it would be easier to install a better water separator and maybe pump a little bit off the bottom of the tank once in a while like when you service the engine. I would think that the thermal properties of aluminum like quick cooling would be more likely to make condensation.

My tractor has a separator with a o ring in it that floats on water but not on diesel, handy for a quick check. I have only removed water from it once when I first got the 3 year old tractor used in 2003,  I have not had any water since. The tank is black (plastic )in color so probably less prone to making condensation than a light color metal tank.  (if exposed to the sun)

[TimW]

I wonder if it would be easier to install a better water separator and maybe pump a little bit off the bottom of the tank once in a while like when you service the engine. I would think that the thermal properties of aluminum like quick cooling would be more likely to make condensation.

My tractor has a separator with a o ring in it that floats on water but not on diesel, handy for a quick check. I have only removed water from it once when I first got the 3 year old tractor used in 2003,  I have not had any water since. The tank is black (plastic )in color so probably less prone to making condensation than a light color metal tank.  (if exposed to the sun)

I really don't want to make this more complex by having pumps and hoses standing by and taking up space, cleanup etc.
My outside storage tank sits in the sun and it is aluminum.  It has a sump drain and never has any water in it.
WM's water separator has a water float in it too.  It just won't get water out of the bottom of the tank like a sump drain would.

[Hilltop366]

Thinking about this some more and it dawned on me that you are adding a emulsifier to your fuel to prevent water build by allowing the water to mix with the fuel and be put through the system (cough sputter) but your fuel system is designed to capture the water to prevent it from getting to the engine.

Also if the additive has alcohol in it would it cause water absorption just like the blended gas?

Google search:
Emulsifiers encapsulate water droplets and pass them through the fuel system to be vaporized and expelled during the combustion cycle. Demulsifiers cause water to precipitate out of the fuel where it can be separated mechanically by water separators or other means.

I'm betting you would be better served with the system you have to omit the additive and maybe add a water absorber to remove any water and if necessary add a anti -emulsifier/demulsifer. Once you remove the water you have very little risk of problems.

I will add that I have never added any thing to my fuel here in the tractor or backhoes that I have had since 1988 and have had no issues but I do know that our diesel was and could still be of better quality than the diesel in the south. 

[Hilltop366]

I agree, a sump and drain would be better.

For the tank color / condensation comment I am going by my experience with furnace oil which is a common way to heat a home around here. The lighter tanks and partially filled tanks that are installed outside seem to be more prone to condensation than darker painted tanks. Same as putting your hand on a white vehicle and a dark vehicle when the sun goes down, the dark vehicle will stay warmer for a while and be dry while the white vehicle will feel cool and have dew forming on it.

Good to hear your storage tank is not a issue, as with most things using the fuel regularly sure helps. I probably only use 30 gallons of diesel in the backhoe per year so it sits around a lot but (knock on wood) I have not had any fuel issues.

This is the pump I use to get some fuel out of the tank. Once you loosen the cap on top of the primer pump on top it breaks the syphon and the fuel drains out of the pump. Cheap and easy to use.

Pump

[SawyerTed]

The least complex solution is to keep the tank full during periods when the mill isn't used - overnight and other times when it's sitting. 

[Magicman]

I always fill my sawmill's fuel jug at the end of the day.....every day.

[TimW]

The least complex solution is to keep the tank full during periods when the mill isn't used - overnight and other times when it's sitting.

Exactly.  My first boss in general aviation was always stressing that to a/c owners.  But sometimes I forget to top off the tank.

[TimW]

I gather Power service is neither a demulsifier or emulsifier.  I was told by the Yanmar service manager Peak Blue Agri Clean makes the water disappear.  Not sure how.   Not matter what additive I use, the tank has a dead zone that will not pick up fuel and doesn't have a sump drain, but contributes to fuel and water being emulsified by the returning fuel.

My tractor's plastic tank is black.  My Cummins' plastic tank is black.  My other tanks are steel and painted to match the machine....CAT yellow and Lull orange.  The storage tank's aluminum gets hot in the sun, like a black tank.
    So why does WM use a white plastic tank? 
I also wonder, in a hard rain, if water can enter the tank past the rubber grommets on top of the tank for fuel pickup and return.
    I tried Doc's method today, of returning the top portion of fuel back into the tank today, and threw away the bottom fuel with water in it after pouring the tank into a clean bucket.  Too much water suspended in the fuel for the Yanmar.  It won't go to idle rpm now.  So now I am gonna change filters and drain the system, again, them go to the corner store and buy fresh fuel.  Then add 1.6 ounces of Agri Clean to the 5 gallon can.
Still thinking about buying a Rhodes fuel cell from Summit Racing and modify a top fitting with a pickup straw.

   

[thecfarm]

So a white tank is not good?
I am just about to replace my gas tank with a white one? Should I paint it, or build a steel box over it?
I don't use my saw much. seem like a few months every 2 years.

[barbender]

I think it has more to do with the humidity where Tim is at than the color of his tank. 

[TimW]

I am beginning to believe that also.  I don't have this problem in the winter, which is just a few weeks here.

A little humor, when we would run engines at takeoff power, one can go back (on a DC-9) and look out the window and watch a humidity snake go forward past the window and turn 180 degrees and disappear into the engine inlet.
One morning about 3 am, during a run, a co worker ran up the aisle hollering...............
  Help help, I got bit by a humidity snake.

[barbender]

 Well Tim, I'm sure that this a good one except I have no idea (and I'm thankful for that) what a humidity snake is? 

 Man I hate humidity!

[TimW]

Humidity Snake, I guess is mechanic slang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUDu9n2bsjQ

[barbender]

 So what causes that? Is the air getting compressed before it enters the engine or something? 

[TimW]

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/21219/how-does-this-vortex-form-inside-a-jet-engine

[YellowHammer]

I am not a big fan of fuel and water emulsifiers for modern diesels, or any engine for that matter.  They are a fix for a problem that should be taken care of using other means.  Only clean fuel should be getting to the engine.  The emulsified water in diesels can reach levels that cause issues, especially the modern style of fuel injectors.  The additives, unless actually approved for use by the engine manufacturer, can cause the engine to run off design, and that isn't good.

I'm not sure how the new style WM tanks look and work, used to be they were old school fancified boat fuel tanks, and were easily swapped with full ones at the beginning of a sawing day.  The old ones were thrown in the back of a pickup and filled at the pump, and flipped upside down to drain any crud and water in them so water could never build up.

If swapping empty tanks with full ones wasn't an option, I would install a petcock drain in the tank, but that is not really a fix, just a way to inspect and quickly mitigate the problem real time.   

The stock fuel water separator obviously isn't working, I would certainly replace it with a Racor fuel filter and water separator with clear bowl and drain, actually matched to the flow rate for the tank, which is important.  Racors are excellent, I use them for very finicky Yamaha engines and they work extremely well, and are arguably the gold standard.

If water is getting into your tank due to rain, then that is a problem and should be addressed also, but even then, a proper fuel and water separator should catch that before it gets to the engine.