President Trump issues Executive Order addressing Lumber Production

[GRANITEstateMP]

I don't follow this stuff too closely, I'd end up having a breakdown!  As far as tariffs go, to me, it only seems fair that the US should mirror any tariff that is imposed upon us.  I think that's pretty cut and dry and probably too simplistic, but in my mind it's an easy solution. 

[ahlkey]

What you want to achieve with import/exports is a fair and balanced approach.  Besides tariffs you also have to look at country subsidies for specific industries which at times can exceed Billions for dollars!  With every country looking at their own self-interest in  jobs, etc... the solution will be problematic or impossible to fix perfectly.

I having been cutting 280 acres (est. > 100,000 bd ft) of White Ash due to the threat of EAB nearby.  They were being exported to China.  Having 20,000 board ft ready to go and then a complete STOP is upsetting. Its not the immediate loss of dollars/market but the sudden change that hurts everyone in the supply chain. In my view it is an gunslinger approach to a very complex issue that is most upsetting to me. Changes can occur and should be done for sure but you can't do it overnight.

[Mooseherder]

I'm sorry that happened to you.  Can you pivot to firewood markets?

[mudfarmer]

You really want/expect folks to sell all the >$1/bf ash that is sitting on landings that everybody would buy last week but nobody will this week -into the firewood market- ? Almost like this whole thing was not poorly thought out but just not thought out at all.

[Mooseherder]

I don't expect anything but corrections. 
How did we get here?

[Plankton]

In my opinion it is less about idealogical "we shouldnt be selling to other countrys all our manufacturing should be on shore" etc. I am a firm believer that america needs more local industry. Many factors unfortunatly have led to us not producing practically anything we used to. Factorys, sawmills, independent business closing left and right as massive corporations consolidate manufacturing overseas and distribution on shore here.

The problem with this current approach is that it doesnt deal with the realitys of the industry currently. Many loggers and sawmills and shops/tradespeople that support us are hanging on by a thread. Global export on hardwood veneer in particular is a huge part of the bread and butter of loggers here in new england. Simply stopping that leaves.....what?

We dont have domestic markets for all these logs, starting up/reopening domestic mills doesnt happen overnight and is too risky with the current tarrifs and policys seemingly being tossed back and forth on a whim.

Most of my logs go to canada, some go to local mills when it makes sense. HW veneer goes to a local buyer that loads containers for china. Usually one good HW tree will end up in 3 different destinations. If I were to ship all my logs to my local sawmills my profit would be almost nothing there prices cant compete. On top of that if every logger shipped all the wood locally the mills would be flooded and shut everyone off not enough capacity. Here in new england canadas mills are not very far from our domestic mills they come down with something on a flatdeck going to boston or new york swing by and backhaul some logs. Trucking works out for them and me getting me a higher price for my wood.

Just taking these markets away and hoping it will sort itself out just adds to the pile of problems the industry already has. Constant attack by treehuggers who dont understand working forests, fuel and parts through the roof, an overall aging workforce with very little help to be found, truking resources dwindling as that industry has its own problems and now losing export grade HW market and possibly canadian markets as well.

Ive got oak cut that was going for 1.5 to 1.9 a foot 2 weeks ago that is going to bring me .70 now. Thats not a small hit.

[240b]

You really want/expect folks to sell all the >$1/bf ash that is sitting on landings that everybody would buy last week but nobody will this week -into the firewood market- ? Almost like this whole thing was not poorly thought out but just not thought out at all.

honestly, what else can you do with it?

[mudfarmer]

Well I COULD (past tense) sell them in the "free market" to Canadian mills, until some rich guys that have never done a day's work said "Let them eat cake" and started a global trade war for funsies.

Now I will bring my 10mbf home to saw and sit on the lumber, we aren't going to get more 20" clear ash logs for a long time. 100 mbf guy up there though? I hope he has an option because nobody cares what happens to him after empathy and worker solidarity completely collapsed

[240b]

not sure how to link articles but
sevendaysvt.com  has a good piece on vt forest industry 

[quilbilly]

International trade has made countries prosper going back centuries, it hasn't always been fair trade but still trade between countries has generally been a good thing. Venetians, Genoans, Hanseatic League, etc. the more a country turned inward, see pre opium war China, the more it opened itself up to internal corruption and other issues like quality (USSR). 

There is nothing objectively wrong with exporting logs, especially if there is no domestic market for them. This is the case where I live. Rough large wood has a limited market, that market is almost non existent if there is no china export market. We just got cut off from our closest mill for under 30" because they now have no competition for that log, so we are now shipping 2.5 hrs one way to a place that takes at 32" butt max. Our landowner is now going to take a huge hit in the wallet and we may end up firewooding the over 32" logs if my dad can't work a deal with the Koreans. The best he can do right now is a 200/mbf discount compared to what we were getting on the China market. 

I'm not sure why mills getting preference over loggers and landowners is so important but it sure seems to be a thing.

[Ron Wenrich]

I have a question about HW veneer.  Is that going to a veneer mill or is it going to a concentration yard and then exported?   It seems that if its being exported from Canada, it could also be exported from the US by Canadians.  For example, Honda is going to mfg in Indiana instead of Mexico to avoid tariffs.

I haven't been around veneer sales or the like in quite some time.  But, when I was, it wasn't uncommon to have a veneer buyer from Europe come in and buy logs.  We also had local buyers that had concentration yards.  We did sell some core logs to a veneer plant in NY.  But, I can't remember of any veneer plants left in PA. 

[240b]

typically for central vt
   HW veener is sorted out at either the mill ( if they sort it and pay you veener price less a percent, some will just buy it as a grade log and than sell it and one mill just saws it all because, " it makes great lumber" ) or concentration yard,  yard it typically best best for average woodlot containing mix of grades and not a whole load of one thing. 
    Some is going to Michigan ( maple)
some to canada  (small Rotary logs, maple ) i think the yellow birch iis going to Columbia in Newport, Vermont.  the oak mostly seems to be put in conex to china. ( i dont cut oak so not too familiar)  
   last time i sold veneer on land was '98 to a guy from Belgium.  
    ive not heard of any thing going to EU lately.  

[SwampDonkey]

Columbia in Preque Isle, Maine would come here to NB and truck the veneer from our marketing board yard where they either scaled it already on the woodlot or scaled in the yard. Most was scaled at the woodlot. Loads of wood here have to have a transport certificate to be moved, for chain of custody requirements. We never had large volumes because most has been clearcut and the cutting cycle is too short these days. Hard maple and birch. Not big money like southern Ontario.

[Mooseherder]

The big China Tariff news is going unreported. 

[mike dee]

I'm sorry that happened to you.  Can you pivot to firewood markets?

We have a ban on shipping this stuff as firewood. Just giving the critters a free ride to expand into new locations.

[SwampDonkey]

Are they debarked before moving? What's the difference between firewood bark and log bark? ;)

[nativewolf]

Probably the best time for corrections while the market is depressed before moving forward.  Let them kick and scream because it was their system that got us here.  Nobody is against fair trade.  This is the start of a Golden Age. Great for everyone. The Markets will correct and growth cures all the wounds.

Why is it fair for me to not be able to sell my log to the highest bidder?  I lose money and my landowners lose

Probably the best time for corrections while the market is depressed before moving forward.  Let them kick and scream because it was their system that got us here.  Nobody is against fair trade.  This is the start of a Golden Age. Great for everyone. The Markets will correct and growth cures all the wounds.

Why is it fair for me to not be able to sell my log to the highest bidder?  I lose money and my landowners lose money. 

The Markets will develop where they're needed.  Probably a new opportunity for you to capitalize on.  We will have no choice but to seek other ways now.
There was only one place to sell my spf sawlogs in Maine.  They have mills in both countries. Mine went to Canada. There was only one option for chip wood also.
It wasn't good for my Logger or me either.  He decided to get out of Logging on my job after 6 loads went out.

To Customsawyer's point, they are always advertising for job positions at the mills.
I don't know how it'll turn out but it was definitely time to try something different.

There are lots of options.  Including bankruptcy and just sitting it all out and waiting.

The trucking company that has hauled for us moves logs from Ohio to Va, we use the backhauls to send logs to ohio.  Good for us and them.  China has banned logs.  So, I have no backhaul for logs to Ohio.  

Not sure what the trucking company will do now, they don't know either.  It was about half their business.  Either they layoff or shut down.  

We put another 500 acres under contract yesterday.  However, if I don't find reliable backhauls we'll likely not cut it for a few years.  

[nativewolf]

What you want to achieve with import/exports is a fair and balanced approach.  Besides tariffs you also have to look at country subsidies for specific industries which at times can exceed Billions for dollars!  With every country looking at their own self-interest in  jobs, etc... the solution will be problematic or impossible to fix perfectly.

I having been cutting 280 acres (est. > 100,000 bd ft) of White Ash due to the threat of EAB nearby.  They were being exported to China.  Having 20,000 board ft ready to go and then a complete STOP is upsetting. Its not the immediate loss of dollars/market but the sudden change that hurts everyone in the supply chain. In my view it is an gunslinger approach to a very complex issue that is most upsetting to me. Changes can occur and should be done for sure but you can't do it overnight.

Sorry to hear about the ash.  Yes, it is a huge economic shock and for most hardwood logging it's going to eliminate profits.  We've heard china hardwood lumber ban coming soon.  That's going to only leave the market to Vietnam (chinese owners that have moved operations out of China).  I expect that to end up in a tariff situation too.  We'll see.  

[nativewolf]

Are they debarked before moving? What's the difference between firewood bark and log bark? ;)

They get sealed in containers as logs, then fumigated, then sent back to asia where the beetle originated.

[nativewolf]

I have a question about HW veneer.  Is that going to a veneer mill or is it going to a concentration yard and then exported?  It seems that if its being exported from Canada, it could also be exported from the US by Canadians.  For example, Honda is going to mfg in Indiana instead of Mexico to avoid tariffs.

I haven't been around veneer sales or the like in quite some time.  But, when I was, it wasn't uncommon to have a veneer buyer from Europe come in and buy logs.  We also had local buyers that had concentration yards.  We did sell some core logs to a veneer plant in NY.  But, I can't remember of any veneer plants left in PA. 

Canada should be a bit advantaged and keep selling veneer to Europe and Asia.  The way things are developing, Canada imposing export tariffs on electricity etc, I would not plan on shipping veneer logs to Canada.  

Bailles head buyer (the largest hardwood company in the world) told me that another firm had $20mln in logs in containers when China announced the ban.  They are in the way of the other containers and they can't be unloaded in China.  He heard they dumped them in the ocean. 

[SwampDonkey]

Are they debarked before moving? What's the difference between firewood bark and log bark? ;)

They get sealed in containers as logs, then fumigated, then sent back to asia where the beetle originated.

That does not happen out in the woods though, between there and the concentration yard bugs can fly from invested logs anywhere on the way. The beetle is no inherit threat to it's native land.

[240b]

Are they debarked before moving? What's the difference between firewood bark and log bark? ;)

They get sealed in containers as logs, then fumigated, then sent back to asia where the beetle originated.

That does not happen out in the woods though, between there and the concentration yard bugs can fly from invested logs anywhere on the way. The beetle is no inherit threat to it's native land.

some ash logs were being hauled to nh and debarked than put in containers and fumigated at the port in boston.  12 miles from here the bark is falling off standing trees an they look horrible. the county forester was here in october and told me he thought theres a 90%+ chance all my trees are infested the just dont look it yet.   i decided to saw enough ash flooring for the house,  its gonna be like chestnut in a few years here. 
   

[memopad]

Can someone explain how logging is supposed to prevent forest fires to me? It seems to be toted as a great reason for increased logging and forest management, but I must be missing something.

When mature forests burn from lightning or human factors, it seems to be the product of a changing environment with increased temperatures and decreased rainfall. 

Southern california isn't burning forests, it's dry scrub brush. 

When I see my local forests logged, it's either clear cut and turned to garbage for 20 years, or thinned and full of dead slash and black berries for years until the canopy recovers. Both things burn really well. 

I don't see how logging fixes any of that. Unless it's simply less trees = less thing to burn, clear cut = no trees to burn, yay! Make it rain more and I bet the problem goes away 

[beenthere]

When I see my local forests logged, it's either clear cut and turned to garbage for 20 years, or thinned and full of dead slash and black berries for years until the canopy recovers. Both things burn really well.

But your example of your logged forests, likely do not support a raging problem forest fire. The cut-over areas allow more manageable fire fighting and some easier fire control.

The brush burning in CA is a different condition than logged forests. A lot involved that is not easy to explain in a few words.

[rusticretreater]

Forest management builds roads to allow folks to get in there and check on things and also fight fires.  They check on old growth areas and monitor the tree health.  When it gets to a certain point, they will arrange for it to be logged and then replanted.  Otherwise, trees die, fall over, get hung up in other trees, etc.  They also burn fast if they catch on fire.  They will do controlled burns to kill infestations.  They will clear out areas where storms destroyed trees.

Also they establish the look out stations, estimate available lumber and stumpage and provide research data.