serious chainsaw accidents

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, score another (possible) soul saved by the Forestry Forum. I read back through this thread and I believe it was @John Mc that mentioned expiration dates on helmets and pu the thought into my subconscious, in fact, I mentioned it myself in a replay further down. Well today I pulled my helmet off as I was packing it in and thought, "Hey, I wonder when this hard hat does expire?" SO I got out a magnifying glass and checked the date codes. Turns out my hat was made on January 25 of....2010. Which means it expired 6 years ago. It's still in great shape and had never had a significant hit, although it has saved me from a lot of snapping branches and some small overhead stuff. Nothing that took me to my knees as far as I can recall. 
 I don't cut for a company and am not worried at all about OSHA any longer. But I ain't stupid either, my hat spends a lot of time in the sun regardless. I have been wanting to get a skull bucket and be done with it anyway, so I guess it's time to go shopping. >:( :-\
 So anyway, thanks for the conversation and bringing this up!

[lazyflee]

When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.

It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.  

I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself.  He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained.  It must be complacency.  

I guess I don't know the term, what is "drop start"? And I choose "uninformed"!

[dukethebeagle]

Four yaers ago my dad was limming some cedar.
Came from underneath with the tip.
Had a ADMIN EDIT jonsered 630 with a screwed chainbreak
It wasn't forgiving.
Caught the tip and bingo.
Caught him right in the forehead.
Left a good scare.from the hairline top of the nose
Hes not running that saw anymore

[lxskllr]

I guess I don't know the term, what is "drop start"? And I choose "uninformed"!

Cord in one hand, saw in the other. You drop the saw(stays in hand), and pull the cord at the same time. I don't see a problem with it with modern saws. If the chainbrake's set, what's it gonna do? What's the alternative if you're up in a tree? That said, my first start is usually on the ground, with the foot through the handle style. After that I drop start. My top handle's always drop started. Anything else would be less safe.

[sawguy21]

It is fine as long as the brake is set. I got in the habit of doing it before chain brakes, I am left handed so dropped with my right hand and pulled with my left. The moving chain caught my pant leg (no chaps in the shop) but didn't collect any hide. Never did that again!

[Skeans1]

When I see someone drop start a chainsaw, I figure they are ignorant, uninformed, untrained, a novice, a rookie, or they know better and just don't care.

It is a sure sign of inexperience or experienced complacency.  

I taught my Son-in-law how to safely start a chainsaw and gave him all the PPE he needed to protect himself.  He still drop starts it, so he is neither ignorant, uninformed, or untrained.  It must be complacency.  

Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?

[John Mc]

Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?

Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)

[Skeans1]

Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?

Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)

Try that with a 60" or longer bar you're not going to lift it like this without causing back issues.

[Old Greenhorn]

Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?

Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)

That's how I do it, very stable and easy on an old man's shoulders. Also no issues if the pull card stalls halfway out. Just remember its the inside of the right thigh, not your right groin.

[Skeans1]

@Old Greenhorn 
That can work if the ground is good and the bars are on the shorter end but even something like a 32 on bad ground you're not doing that. Another good situation is how would you start a saw on a spring board? How would you start something on bad ground or bad footing? I've cut ground where you're either in a hole with the stump or you're dropping off the side for a tumble.

[Greenhighlander]

After going on about how safe I try to be you guys have me thinking I am starting my saws in an unsafe way now  

I usually just hold the saw with my left hand and pull the cord with my right . Obviously with the chain nowhere near me . But ya , am I wrong doing this ?   I only run 18" and 24" bars if that matters .  My 395 with the decomp pressed in is less of a pull then my little 445 .

[John Mc]

Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)

Try that with a 60" or longer bar you're not going to lift it like this without causing back issues.

So rest the bar tip on something. As for the back issues: how is lifting the saw to start as I described any tougher on your back than drop starting? If anything, it's easier on my back. The weight of the saw is in closer to my body and the saw is stationary and tightly controlled. With a drop start you have the added strain of arresting the downward momentum of the saw that you started with the drop. As someone with ongoing back and neck issues which started with an injury back when I was about 20, I've adopted the method I described in part because it's easier on my back.

@Old Greenhorn
That can work if the ground is good and the bars are on the shorter end but even something like a 32 on bad ground you're not doing that. Another good situation is how would you start a saw on a spring board? How would you start something on bad ground or bad footing? I've cut ground where you're either in a hole with the stump or you're dropping off the side for a tumble.

Since I'm not doing any cutting on a spring board, it's not an issue for me. I'm not claiming it's the only way to start a saw.

If what you are doing works for you, go for it. I'm not the one who made the ingorance/untrained/rookie comment. I do recognize that things can be different different with the kinds of things you are cutting, and the equipment you are using.

I have back and neck problems anyway, and by personal experience (as well as the input from my physical therapist wife who has grown tired of "fixing me") I know that the "clamp between the legs method" causes less issues with my back than drop starting. It is arguably safer, since the saw is more tightly controlled. I'm sticking with it in any situation where it is possible to do so.

[Skeans1]

@John Mc 
I remember sitting through a class a few years put on by Stihl they told us the same thing till one of the guys raised his hand and asked exactly what I just did their response says volumes they don't do it nor should we. The reason I ask about a 60" bar is it's still some what a common place to run something that long say on a 3120 or 088 sized saw I'm sure as heck not putting that long bar on something then in my thigh. When drop starting my saw don't move most of the time it's a roll style drop where the power head does all the work for you vs you're trying to hold all that weight in the air on on something then crank up a saw. Am I saying this way is correct no but I do know a lot of situations where the GOL style of safety rules will not work from being in industry and actually falling timber.

[offrink]

Man I guess I'm one of the only ones who don't do either one. I do left hand on handle, right foot on the flat part next to the throttle, pull cord. Nothing jumps around, chain stays off the ground with even the longest bar, and you can pull the hardest starts with plenty of force and do it many many times if needed. 

[WDH]

The thing is, Skeans, you have thought this through and do what works best for you in the conditions that you work in.  You are very experienced and have made a decision based on options.  I respect that.

However, you are not the normal chainsaw operator who has little experience at your level, has never had training, does not understand the risks, probably does not wear all the proper PPE, likely does not understand the potential risks, and has not made an informed decision based on the options. 

I knew that my comments would generate a good bit of debate and discussion. If that discussion has caused anyone to think about how they are doing things and how they can be safe or safer, then it has been worth it. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Curious how you would recommend starting a large saw with a long bar on steep ground other then drop starting them?

Well, there is always this: left hand on the front handle, bar pointed ahead and to the left, rear handle tucked under your right thigh with the front of your left thigh clamping it in place while you pull the starter with your right hand. (and yes, it is quite possible to do this in a way that does not put certain sensitive body parts at risk.)

That's how I do it, very stable and easy on an old man's shoulders. Also no issues if the pull card stalls halfway out. Just remember its the inside of the right thigh, not your right groin.

There is always a right way, and there is always a wrong way, but I would be a fool if I thought there was only one way. I just know what works for me and I have found to be safe, reliable, and the least impact on my back and shoulders.
 Drop starting for me can be abusive to my body, first, I have to raise the saw up high enough for the drop, then I have to throw that weight back down while yanking on that cord. If it grabs I wind up jerking my right shoulder and if it starts easy the engine and tip weight can swing around and not being as strong as I used to, controlling that mass can sometimes be tricky. It all happens so fast. ;D
 With the method I use, if the cord 'catches' the shock is partly absorbed by the inside of my thigh, not entirely by my shoulder. It just works for me.
 As far as footing goes. I have never worked off a springboard, so I can't begin to enter a dog in that fight. But bad footing is something we have everywhere here with steep ground, loose broken shale, and drop oss. (WHy do big straight trees prefer to grow on the edge of a 30' drop all the time?) The method I use allows me to plant my feet wherever I am and know that I will not get pushed off balance.
 Of course I don't swing the big saws like you do and defer to your experience on that. The biggest I have (or want) is a 372 with a 28" bar and drop starting that is no fun for me. Sometimes I do rest that tip up on a log or branch to start it when I am tired and weary. 
 I don't see this as a "right vs. wrong" issue, I see this as a "what works safely and efficiently for you" issue. Certainly I am not trying to change any minds, just sharing what works for me. 
 

[Tacotodd]

👍

[mike_belben]

i am not captain safety by any means.. i try to make myself get all suited up for battle but sometimes just don't for who knows why, call it anything you like. stubborn and stupid probably.


  i had a mentor way back who was an old man by then, but in the 70s he was a pro surfer at some of the most deadly breaks known at the time, and i was learning to shape surfboards.  we were talking about a really clean little wave that was very easy to get to and very public and always empty when every other spot was packed.  one day i paddled out and surfed it just a tiny bit.. the whole place was full of jagged reef crops that went right up to the surface and i lost a toenail to one.  we talked about it and i said something about 'if i wipeout' and his answer was 'don't wipe out. just stop thinking that way.'  he was a legend and i was a pup listening to some zen buddha-ness so i just was like okay he is the legend here just obey him. fine.. no wipe out. just don't. and i think it just really helped me in surfing, in the marines, in downhill mountain bikes, atv hare scrambles etc.  not to say i didn't wipe out, i had plenty of minor injuries, blood, concussions, etc but somehow, maybe just by God's grace, not major ones.  I'm sure this sounds silly, but you can't armor up to go surf.  you can do it or not do it, thats it.. so theres gotta be something of a mental armor, a survival plan for the inevitable gone wrongs that happen when you get out of bed. 


guys talk about training a lot.  when i was 13 i started being the after school cleanup boy at a machine shop that closed half hour after i punched in so it was just me.  there was this dumb kid, hiding in the dark and just turning on old machinery cautiously that i had no idea how to run.  i ground gears and crashed chucks, snapped cutters, flung chuck jaws into the ceiling.  but i guess in those days of WW2 vintage equipment before warning labels and guards the mentality was theyre you're fingers, its your job to keep them out of the chuck and again.. its a mental thing.  a PTO shaft has 500 warnings not to run it without the sleeves on.  well you can't put sleeves over a lathe chuck.  you go putting on a bunch of protective equipment to run a lathe and you're just gonna have it suck your hand in.  thats a position where your safety equipment is not sticking a body part where it don't belong.  this bean picker/snowblower/square baler will eat your fingers kid, so don't feed it any if you aim to keep them.    

for the past 20 years or so i have inquired of every missing digit, appendage or major scar i have seen.  at first it felt like i was being offensive but all have responded very kindly.  every single maimed person i have met was eager to tell their story, to see someone cared and had empathy and have a chance to maybe prevent someone else from the same fate.  other than wrecks or violence the overwhelming majority have been "wasn't paying attention."  


my safety program is that i hang onto every saw like an alligator in a headlock and i think of the entire bar as a light saber.  or like a spinning wheel hub in a lathe .. or an electric fence, a stun gun, a machine gun.  theres only a few places i can be in relation to this weapon. if I'm not in those places i don't put my finger in the trigger just like a pistol. i just tell myself that my messed up shoulder isn't gonna be able to hold the saw up after the cut so i can't have my leg there whatsoever. when I'm fading i just call it a day.  i probably only had a chainsaw for 2 years when i was alone on spurs 50 ft up topping 70 foot pines in an alley.  it was stupid but i think it proves out my "just don't wipe out" mental mantra.  its a focal point in my brain during the job. don't get hurt, don't get hurt, don't get hurt. i  survived the stupid risks (just barely, thanks to my errors) by the constant fear of the tool because it sure wasn't training, safety gear or experience.  Gods mercy and my fear. 

Its not uncommon today for us spoiled americans to disparage or be amazed by 3rd world nations or people for their work practices.  stupid, ignorant, unsafe etc are the words that fly around. have a look at the hoover *DanG construction footage and you'll see americans building under what we today call 3rd world too.  your great grandad didn't have a forestry helmet and chaps or an excavator to push a tree right.  he may have only had a double bit and a crosscut without even a wedge. and if he lived for you to come around, maybe it was because his safety equipment was in his head.  jim kings old threads have made me realize the south americans could log the entire amazon in speedos with nothing but a 090 if they could just get permission. i hope none of us thinks we are smarter or better than them just because we are blessed with wealth, equipment, gear and training.  there are plenty of americans that really look the part who i wouldn't want to stand near with a chainsaw. survival is every bit if not more a focused mental strategy.  gear is a damage control for when you lose your focus and make a mistake. "don't wipeout!"


not trying to ruffle feathers, just remember to keep your thinking cap on under that spendy helmet. 

[mike_belben]

i guess the cliff notes for the TLDR's is that the number of classes you've attended, country your chaps were made in or expiration date on your brain bucket don't really matter if you daze out, saw through a thin hinge and spin a tree off the wrong direction at your cousin who is bucking wood with his back to you without any gear. or with full body armor.. it don't matter if a tree lands on someone.

not only should we be talking about having the gear on your head, but also about having your head in the game.  self awareness and situational awareness.   thats number 1 safety protocol to me.  I'm logging with a 7 year old. its full focus or pack it up for the day with me. 

[Old Greenhorn]

i am not captain safety by any means.. i try to make myself get all suited up for battle but sometimes just don't for who knows why, call it anything you like. stubborn and stupid probably.

There is a lot of wisdom in this Mike. I don't know how many have seen Mike Rowe's little talk on "safety 3rd' in any of it's forms, but I have a lot of respect for Mike for a number of things he does. I subscribe to his safety 3rd for a number of reason's. Maybe some will get something out of this if you haven't seen it before:

Mike Rowe - Safety Third - Whaaat?? - YouTube

[mike_belben]

man that really was good.  

i have been saying safety 3rd in my head for a long time, before that vid was ever made, because safety first was a company policy mantra that only applied to first shift.  which is why i was always on 3rd shift or weekends and why the jobs i had to do which could not be made osha compliant were done in the middle of the night, out of sight and out of mind in secret.  all safety rules were waived for me, wink wink "do the best you can."   recently a 30 year old fell into a furnace and died at east penn manufacturing.  i gave it some thought and said to my wife.. "that coulda been me babe."  

the work order lands on your bench and you get it done or you get shown the exit.  the kids want food and the mortgage wants a few weeks pay.  so if i cant walk ontop the austemper enclosure 15 feet over a glowing orange heat treat pot because itll melt my shoes, i will just have to rig something up and not fall in.  if i cant reach the bulbs on this work order at the top of the manlift then im standing on the rails or putting a ladder on it. if the 16ft ladder only barely gets me up to the metal crosstie then im jumping up from the top of the ladder, climbing into the ties and walking the ancient plank where all the maintenance guys before me walked to change that fanbelt in the coal black forge shop thats over a hammer.   ice cold concrete crawl spaces behind pistol backstops at 3am alone.. im your guy.  4x5 steel sheet fell into the framing and needs to be dug out then replaced without losing a finger, call me.  5 hp motor up a 3 story fire escape in the pouring rain with monsterous parking lot light giving your face a sunburn as you crest the top fully blind? lets go. "emergency" is all the work order needs to say.  i did it for 10 years and my dad did it for 18, give us the job and get out of the way.  like the captain in his vid said, getting home alive is your problem.  my only use for a safety poster is to lay on in the mud.  the people up front dont care if i live, they care to get their stock options without getting sued or fired.  thats who the sign is for.  the people who are always safe, to protect them just a little bit more.  i learned that when i had to sue the company to get my shoulder surgery.



im jaded and ranting now.  yes, put your safety at the very top because no one else will, just dont confuse an abundance of gear, labels and signs as cancelling out a widow maker and creating a safe situation.  theyre cancelling out a liability claim.

if you like your fingers dont stick them in the spindle, chuck or snow blower. it doesnt mind eating a glove or apron too.  i made a hundred plexi-glass guards so osha could approve of unsafe people working on machines they shouldnt be around.  cheap laborers need expensive safety guards to keep their fingers.  "margin's are down, we need cheaper humans" said every board of directors ever.

[Old Greenhorn]

Mike don't get me going. One of the reason's my old boss at my last plant gave me the Machine Guarding SPA job was because he didn't want some overeducated safety nazi doing the task and shutting down equipment because it wasn't 100% safe. He wanted somebody with a few scars and a few close calls under his belt to use a little common sense. Somebody that learned on manual equipment and knew how things worked.
 I spent as much or more of my time in that position arguing uphill against corporate about why some new 'thing' they decided was 'good for everyone in every plant' was in fact, adding to the hazard in a lot of cases or simply did not apply. They had 50 plants around the world doing everything from mining, to primary metal production to highly engineered detailed manufacturing and aerospace work. What works in a foundry, does not apply in a toolmaker's shop.
 One time our EHS coordinator gave me a memo insisting that all work done on hand grinders and buffers include the use of a face shield over the normal safety glasses. I said 'maybe' but I would look into it. She said 'you have to do it, it's mandatory, corporate says so'. I said 'maybe' and I did look into it to confirm what I thought. I told her I would get the face shields and put them around the shop and would write up a talk for the daily toolbox talk (morning safety meeting). But the direction would be that face shields are to be used for any heavy snagging on castings and such. For fine and smaller work, the operator had to make his/her choice for the appropriate eye protection. I did make it mandatory for wire wheels. She said that's not good enough, 'it's mandatory for everything'. I calmly explained to her that when a skilled person is doing fine small work on an off-hand machine they need to be able to see what they are doing. Adding a big face shield over safety glasses obscures and distorts the view of the work and their fingers. It fogs up besides and is a distraction at best. Making it mandatory creates a new hazard, I argued. Try it yourself, you will see. (SHe never touched a piece of work, so there was little danger of that happening.)
 She said corporate won't buy it. I said I don't care, that's what I am doing, I am not going to create hazards for our people. Let them use their brain for a change. She told me to write it up and send it to her so she could relay it up the ladder for approval, which she was certain would not come. So I did as she asked, wrote it up and she sent it right to the the VP of EHS at corporate along with very clear wording that this was not HER idea and she was against it. 2 days later we get a response "That plan makes sense, go with it". She didn't talk to me for a month (which was also nice).
 We repeated this scenario numerous times over the 13 years I held that little side job. Once was an emergency notice to shut down and inspect all metal spinning lathes to improve safety after a fatality at some plant somewhere. I got the note, reviewed it and sent her back a note that simply said, "Does not apply here, we have no metal spinning lathes". She argued that every lathe we have cuts metal and that metal spins...therefore.... Aw geez, now I gotta teach her what metal spinning is and we went through the same thing with me writing it up, her sending it off, and it coming back with the response 'yeah, that's fine'. Again a month without her talking to me. ;D
 Yeah, don't get me going, or maybe you just did. :D

[HemlockKing]

Mike don't get me going. One of the reason's my old boss at my last plant gave me the Machine Guarding SPA job was because he didn't want some overeducated safety nazi doing the task and shutting down equipment because it wasn't 100% safe. He wanted somebody with a few scars and a few close calls under his belt to use a little common sense. Somebody that learned on manual equipment and knew how things worked.
I spent as much or more of my time in that position arguing uphill against corporate about why some new 'thing' they decided was 'good for everyone in every plant' was in fact, adding to the hazard in a lot of cases or simply did not apply. They had 50 plants around the world doing everything from mining, to primary metal production to highly engineered detailed manufacturing and aerospace work. What works in a foundry, does not apply in a toolmaker's shop.
One time our EHS coordinator gave me a memo insisting that all work done on hand grinders and buffers include the use of a face shield over the normal safety glasses. I said 'maybe' but I would look into it. She said 'you have to do it, it's mandatory, corporate says so'. I said 'maybe' and I did look into it to confirm what I thought. I told her I would get the face shields and put them around the shop and would write up a talk for the daily toolbox talk (morning safety meeting). But the direction would be that face shields are to be used for any heavy snagging on castings and such. For fine and smaller work, the operator had to make his/her choice for the appropriate eye protection. I did make it mandatory for wire wheels. She said that's not good enough, 'it's mandatory for everything'. I calmly explained to her that when a skilled person is doing fine small work on an off-hand machine they need to be able to see what they are doing. Adding a big face shield over safety glasses obscures and distorts the view of the work and their fingers. It fogs up besides and is a distraction at best. Making it mandatory creates a new hazard, I argued. Try it yourself, you will see. (SHe never touched a piece of work, so there was little danger of that happening.)
She said corporate won't buy it. I said I don't care, that's what I am doing, I am not going to create hazards for our people. Let them use their brain for a change. She told me to write it up and send it to her so she could relay it up the ladder for approval, which she was certain would not come. So I did as she asked, wrote it up and she sent it right to the the VP of EHS at corporate along with very clear wording that this was not HER idea and she was against it. 2 days later we get a response "That plan makes sense, go with it". She didn't talk to me for a month (which was also nice).
We repeated this scenario numerous times over the 13 years I held that little side job. Once was an emergency notice to shut down and inspect all metal spinning lathes to improve safety after a fatality at some plant somewhere. I got the note, reviewed it and sent her back a note that simply said, "Does not apply here, we have no metal spinning lathes". She argued that every lathe we have cuts metal and that metal spins...therefore.... Aw geez, now I gotta teach her what metal spinning is and we went through the same thing with me writing it up, her sending it off, and it coming back with the response 'yeah, that's fine'. Again a month without her talking to me. ;D
Yeah, don't get me going, or maybe you just did. :D

:D Dont blame ya, it really is a bugger to see with safety glasses AND a scratched up face shield, and you're right, it does create more hazard really, because if I cant even see the work well that's clamped down that's not a great start...especially with angle grinders. The only time I use a face shield is when I'm using cut off wheels.

[sawguy21]

I worked in the aircraft industry for a few years, @Old Greenhorn story is all too familiar.

[thriceor]

"just remember to keep your thinking cap on under that spendy helmet."

Straight up Mike!  

About 40 years ago (goodness, I've gotten old) I put a nice little  L shaped cut in my Levi's with a saw.  Felt a breeze, but nary a scratch on my then hairless leg.  Chaps ever since.  A couple of years ago I got a set of Arborwear full wrap chaps, really like them.