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Author Topic: Well, i went mad.  (Read 4180 times)

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Offline Satamax

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French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2020, 09:09:55 PM »
I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2020, 03:11:25 AM »
I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
Right click, send to the bin!  ;D Easily sorted! 
I have ordered an hydraulic cylinder, see if that fixes the thing. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flowfit-Hydraulic-Double-Acting-Standard-Cylinder-Ram-32mm-to-125mm-Bore-Option/283781394718?hash=item4212b0711e:g:GkkAAOSw8LNeRStR
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
Morning max.  The forum kept timing out on me yesterday.  So lets see here...

Quote
One thing you might not know. The splitting cylinder is kind of automatic. When you bring the saw back up, it splits the wood.

Youre right, thats news to me.  i dont see anything in the overall hydraulic schematic ive been scribbling on that would do that.  Is it a solenoid control or some linkage that didnt make the sketch?  



Quote
The infeed conveyor valve isn't functioning. If i raise the saw halfway then feed in it, it feeds.
I think i saw mention in one of the manuals on maintaining adjustment of the safety valve up on the saw arbor somewhere.  It should be the 2 position on/off valve left of the conveyor motor up top in schematic.
Quote
Valve 9.4 and cylinder #5 i have no problem with.  I think it is built as  keeping always pressure on the blind side, so the  wedge can't be pushed downwards.

All D/A cylinders will lock in position when they have closed work ports at the valve, free of air inside and the valve and packings dont leak.  
Quote
Valve 9.5, is something i don't understand.

Well, i think i was misreading it.  What was giving me grief is this cross line.
9.5 is a screwball because of that seemingly pointless cross line and perhaps there is detail missing that would make it logical.  That valves center position has no port drawn at the top left and a blocked port at bottom left so its a branch to nowhere as drawn.  If they mean it connects both sides in one of the shifted positions they shoulda drawn it in the side box(es).



but since it's cylinder has fluid from pump 3 on one end and pump 4 on the other, which seems to have no control valving (!!!) i have been saving that for last until i had a better understanding of the layout for the log clamp parts, all the stuff i asked a few posts ago.  Without seeing the machine myself there are just too many variables for me to assume wrong.
Quote
But there is one thing for sure, the machine not powered, i can move  the clamp by hand, and i can feel it loosing the hydraulic fluid.

Well that is no surprise, look at the blue path from the cylinder headed back to the right.  Theres no valve to hold the fluid in.  If the machine is off youre forcing fluid back through the pump to the tank plumbing, according to their print.  Far as i can tell the pressure from the pump running at 100 bar is what holds it down.  The defeated conveyor brake may be contributing but hard to say from here.  Its spring return would act like an accumulator in the circuit, but not without a valve.  
The way theyve drawn it pump 4 completely deadheads against valve 12, the conveyor brake and log clamp any time its running, at 1450psi.  The relief poppet is the only path to tank.  



If your drop table is welded solid then that gives you a spare valve on pump 2.  I would just plumb the work ports off valve 9.2 over to the clamp cylinder to fix that.  
Then youve got pump 4 serving no purpose.  The conveyor brake is disabled and you really dont need the log stop dance.  I would just plumb pump 4s output back to tank or through a cooler or something.  Maybe use it to power a trommel in the future.

Quote
How they make the two speeds is not as you think. The cylinder is "double" there is an outside envelope working with the 200 bars from the big pump.  But there is a small cylinder in the bigger one, there just to push the bigger one into contact. That's all on page 25 of hydraulic manual. Or at least that's how i understand the thing.

Ofcoarse its the very last manual i try to find the right page 25  :D
I did see that cylinder once the first day and looked right at it but didnt notice the two stages.  My head was in a spin trying to figure out valve 17 and the apv.  And at this point, i dont care.  The splitter works.  Let palax come here and explain it to us all!  
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2020, 08:46:43 AM »
Thanks a lot Mike. Don't worry too much. There is stuff i don't understand on this schemo. But the stuff i don't understand functions.  ;D

The page 25, sorry. 

Here you go. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2020, 09:29:11 AM »
Yeah thats the one.  For some reason your imagines come up much clearer than the ones in the .pdfs.  I cant upload screenshots either unfortunately, my phone saves as a png and the forum rejects them.  


Anyway i looked at that cylinder one time and thought how am i supposed to figure this out.. They didnt draw the actual port to cavity connections.. Then i moved on to other sections.  



So is ditching pump 4 and using the dropper plate valve to run the log clamp an option?
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2020, 09:47:04 AM »
That 2 stage piston is sort of a missing link to explain what first appeared as an odd pressure and sizing on the 1st and 2nd pump.  If the machine used one big standard ram it would be but the double piston changes everything.  

I will guess that they extend only the inner bore to move fast and weak until encountering a knot, when the valving switches the flow to advance the big [slow and strong] cylinder and the small one within it simultaneously.  Then you only have to move a big ram for an inch or two of difficulty which is actually brilliant.  But complicated as we can see.  


That "extra speed/oil" #17 valve i still think is the overall combiner/unloader of pump 2.  My scribbles are somewhat wrong but its this image.  





At low wood resistance/ low fluid pressures, the relief valve spring blocks the path to tank. The flow from the exhaust side of valvebank 9 comes in from the top, heads south and hits a wall, so it unseats that checkball, circles the block and heads south down pink street to join pump 1 in splitting.  

When the wood puts up a fight and the pressure rises on the pink line, it forces the closed relief to compress its spring and open, revealing the tank passage only to pump 2 and only for the instant that the wood is talking back. This just drops the flow and HP requirement momentarily so the machine doesnt lug or trip the breaker.


The sketch on page 25 only shows a singular pump feeding the splitter valve so i guess its been simplified, by palax standards!


Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2020, 04:16:22 AM »
The cylinder i have ordered is a smidge too long!  :(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2020, 07:18:53 AM »
Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

 The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2020, 07:53:42 AM »
Mike, it's the physical size of the cylinder which is too big. But not by much. I just have to redrill the original cylinder mount on the frame. But i need to find two  screw nipples, to connect before. I have split a truckload last evening.  And the shear bolt of the log stop broke again! :( It doesn't take much. It's an M8. And i would be really happy if the wiggle dance of the log stop would start again. Otherwise, i find it pinches the blade if i'm not careful, to leave one inch between the stop and the log. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2020, 09:13:32 AM »
I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak. 


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  









You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.

Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2020, 09:23:00 AM »
Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2

I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak.


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)



(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)


You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.
I think i can see what you mean with the spring. Why do you want me to mount the leaky cylinder on the circuit for the drop plate. I already have the cylinder there, the original one. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2020, 09:34:04 AM »
Youre misunderstanding me.

You are having a problem with the clamp cylinder because it has no valve and requires everything else in that system to work, which doesnt.  Your conveyor brake is messed up and your log stop too.  Thats why the clamp is messed up. And i cant tell you exactly how to fix it from here.


Your log clamp cylinder would be powerful and hold right if it was connected to a control valve with fluid behind it.  You have an unused valve in in the #9 bank if i understood you correctly, that 9.2 cylinder is just hanging there disconnected because the log drop table is welded up.  So disconnect it and plumb that valve over to the clamp.  Presto. Working clamp. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #93 on: September 23, 2020, 03:09:04 AM »
Any progress?
Revelation 3:20

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #94 on: September 23, 2020, 04:07:17 AM »
Nope Mike, it's been raining, and i haven't had time to do anything. 

Sorry. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2020, 06:02:40 PM »
Well, autumn arriving, i did split another truckload Today. 


What i noticed, is that the infeed conveyor stops a bit, most certainly due to the stop conveyor valve. But it doesn't seem consistent. And i know why i broke the shear pin of the log stop last time. If the log falls down badly It gets stuck between the log pushed which surrounds the cylinder, and  the log stop. Resulting in shearing of the log sto shear pin. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #96 on: September 24, 2020, 05:39:09 PM »
A typical truckload. 

My tipper is 11' long 6.6' wide. I fill that on 3' 4' in a pile. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #97 on: September 24, 2020, 09:22:34 PM »
Well, it makes nice firewood.
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Well, i went mad.
« Reply #98 on: September 24, 2020, 11:32:47 PM »
Doesn't look too shabby. Yes! 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.


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