Author Topic: Identify large circular saw blade tips (Read 1730 times)

Timberjack5 · « **on:** August 18, 2020, 09:56:34 PM »

I am building a large firewood processor that has to be able to handle Australian hardwood. I am looking at buying 2 x circular saw blades, they are 1500mm or 60 inches,
52mm spindle, 6mm thick. The attachable tips go out to 10 or 12mm. I’ve made enquires with several recognised saw blade specialists here in Australia and everyone is saying they haven’t seen this setup before. They would be ideal for a firewood docking saw if I was able to replace the tips when needed. One fella recommended that I could go back to a braise on / weld on tungsten when these ones wore out.
Ideas and knowledge very welcome. I have a 200hp cat motor off a New Holland combine harvester that I am planning to power it with.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2020, 10:16:21 PM »

Here is a link to the advertisement for a better look at the photos

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/eight-mile-plains/miscellaneous-goods/60in-150cm-sawmill-blades-x-2-unused/1253956534

mike_belben · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2020, 10:35:20 PM »

Cant help you with that info but i have plans to do the same. Whenever i find a big cheap blade beyond serviceability.

More than likely i will remove every other tooth, weld up hardface and reshape free hand using a grinder and some sort of template.

You can grind carbide with a wheel if needed to resharpen those inserts. Look up Corborundum. Theyre usually greenish.

BargeMonkey · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2020, 10:49:17 PM »

Newer seen a tooth quite like that, 2 piece for a mill or a Simon's slasher tooth style but that's diff. I've got a 54" on a 6000 Bells, not abnormal to knock carbides off especially in really dry wood.

mike_belben · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2020, 10:53:41 PM »

Whats a new 54 blank with teeth cost barge?

BargeMonkey · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2020, 11:28:39 PM »

😆.... oh about 2400 bucks.... and DO NOT let other Bells guys know you've got 1, our spare disc has been borrowed once in a pinch already, factory was like 3wks out.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 19, 2020, 12:27:04 AM »

Thanks fellas
Mike, when you say weld up hard face onto the saw, are you saying just weld on with hardfacing electrode or wire or are you talking about braising tungsten or something on ?

By the way here is the old Zetor I am aiming to make a skidder tractor out of, yes it’s very rough however I will fabricate some forestry guarding and it will come up looking good. I’ve got the winch on a gantry behind it in order to begin. I’m starting to wonder if this winch is just to heavy for the tractor, it must weigh a tonne. Tractor has got an undercarriage and a front blade on loader frame but I am wondering if I should make a wheeled skidding arch that takes the load of the winch with a super heavy drawbar to the tractor. Just putting it out there for ideas.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 19, 2020, 12:32:30 AM »

I’ve got a second one of these tractors in a 2 wheel drive version that I got just for parts so things like dual wheels or double butt are possible but I don’t want to get too complex. Rather keep it simpler and get it running snugging logs while I keep an eye out for a Timberjack.

Satamax · « **Reply #8 on:** August 19, 2020, 02:16:01 AM »

You want to make the winch fixed or going up and down on the three point hitch? Because all the adapter plate can come off i think. So the winch can loose weight.

Satamax · « **Reply #9 on:** August 19, 2020, 02:27:29 AM »

Tractor data says 1750kg on the three point hitch.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/003/3/6/3363-zetor-6945.html

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:24:02 AM »

Hello Satamax
Yes mate, I was thinking I would strip the linkage off the tractor. Shorten and modify the adapter plates on the winch. Bolt the winch up tight against the back of tractor so that the top of winch is directly behind the tractor seat. Just leave enough space to build a strong tidy little timberjack style cab around operator station with ample protection from the winch area.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:31:16 AM »

Other option I suppose is to mount it on the linkage, could probably weld a butt blade into bottom of winch frame, winch should have enough weight to push that blade in a bit.
This way I’ve got the option of taking the winch off for other bush work where another implement can be run.
I know the linkage will lift the winch no worries, just wondering if it will all work when I’ve got a big log winch up and go to travel, solid mount with butt blade on a pair of double acting cylinders might work better for dragging logs.

mike_belben · « **Reply #12 on:** August 19, 2020, 07:53:45 AM »

Ugh i just lost a big post about your winch setup. I will get back to it later with a picture that took me too long to scroll around to find.

For the blade, no one is giving away good blades. The bigger they are the more people want to make coffee tables and signs from. And im poor so thats that. Whatever i get will be junk. And in years of trying ive still not got one. So honestly my backup plan has been to get a spent rock saw blank.. I am in quarry country and was a rock hauler so i know lots of veneer saw shops and could get one of those. They have diamond segments brazed to the rim.

I was just gonna put a lag bolt with a bushing into the side of a bench and trace out a tooth pattern to plasma cut into the rim, probably at every other segment for a coarse, fast cut and big chip clearance, then add a dab of hardface mig wire i have at the cutting edge. hand grind the gullets with a die grinder, hit the tooth face and rake with a flat grinder then hand file the edge and knock in the set and finally flap wheel buff it to take out stress risers and see what happens.

Judging by the sorry looking old tractor buzz saws that seemed to work just fine, i am certain i can make it work. I saw a youtube vid of a circle saw missing lots of teeth that crosscut firewood just fine, years ago. Metal is the only thing that ever listens to me anyway.

The hardface mig wire i have has no label on it.. It was what we built punch press dies up with at work and they scrapped the roll so i got it. Its what i used to build the knives on my front flail mower and they can flail cinder block and field stone without losing the edge. So this unknown electrode stands up to high pressure steel and abrasive aggregate, it should handle sandy wood. If not, i will find out what the stick electrodes were that i used to build up the demo shear knives with and try that. I mean if i live long enough, tomorrow isnt promised.

I do have 3 of these but theyre too small and with that large hub consuming capacity its just not worth building a processor with such limitation. I think theyre better saved for a scrag mill. I need to put up a building before i can go get my lathes before i can make the hubs anyway.

Riwaka · « **Reply #13 on:** August 19, 2020, 08:38:48 AM »

The knife makers repurpose saw blades, could be more profitable making boutique kitchen knives, than using the saw blades for fire wood.

Probably better to put modern available tungsten teeth on an old blade than start with obsolete teeth.

There are better tractorsthat have been parked in museums in Australia than that zetor.

mike_belben · « **Reply #14 on:** August 19, 2020, 08:42:47 AM »

I dont want to make knives, i want to stop getting carpal tunnel and tendenitis from firewood.

The tractor comment is pretty rude if im taking it as you intended. My apologies if not.

Crusarius · « **Reply #15 on:** August 19, 2020, 01:17:23 PM »

Hard mount the winch to the tractor then modify the 3pt arms to go around the winch and put a blade on it. Best of both worlds.

You should have a butt blate for logs anyhow.

Haleiwa · « **Reply #16 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:03:37 PM »

They look kind of like a hot saw tooth. Maybe contact Stahl's or someone who sells Quadco to see if they can match something based on measurements. I know it's not intended as a hot saw, but that's what the tooth style looks like to me.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:08:46 PM »

Hello Haleiwa, thanks for that, I’m not sure what hot saw means, what’s the application of a hot saw ?

Haleiwa · « **Reply #18 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:15:39 PM »

A feller buncher that uses a circular blade rather than a chainsaw type bar. Look up Quadco hotsaw teeth and you will see some illustrations.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:23:41 PM »

Thanks Crusarius, you’ve given me something to think about there.

Mike, I get it with what you’re telling me about repurposing the quarry saw. I did a lot of welding in my earlier days which included ships, pressure vessels, mining ground engagement, a lot like your photos at times.
These days a friend brings his earth augers over from time to time and I hard face them with elecrodes, a U.S. brand that I can’t think of right now but I have them in the shed and I buy them as they are very reasonably priced and are top quality, they are 350 grade hardness which works well for that application.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 19, 2020, 04:24:49 PM »

Ok thanks Haleiwa, much appreciated.

Maine logger88 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 19, 2020, 08:43:19 PM »

They look a lot like my slasher teeth on my 60in circle saw slasher I can’t quite tell in your pic if they are a replaceable shank like mine?

If yours don’t rivet one like mine you can solder on new carbide tips I have never personally tried cause it’s easier to just rivet in new ones

moodnacreek · « **Reply #22 on:** August 19, 2020, 08:50:20 PM »

Quote from: Maine logger88 on August 19, 2020, 08:43:19 PM

They look a lot like my slasher teeth on my 60in circle saw slasher I can’t quite tell in your pic if they are a replaceable shank like mine?
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
If yours don’t rivet one like mine you can solder on new carbide tips I have never personally tried cause it’s easier to just rivet in new ones
Ditto, can't tell the tooth style. Menominee saw or B.H. Payne will know and probably have teeth.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:03:12 PM »

Thanks Maine Logger and Moodnacreek
I have bought the 2 saws and picked them up yesterday. Wire brushed a few teeth this morning. These saws appear to be old but never used and likely on the packing frames they were sold with.
Remarkably I got them from a deceased estate sell off right in the middle of the city of Brisbane Qld. The old fella had a 12 acre block with a dozen or so large hoop pines up the back and he had a dream to mill them himself, it’s all housing around it now, the pines are still there and the son in law said that they can’t touch the pines now and development has to be built around them. He can’t give me any further info, nobody knows where he got the 2 saws, they found them up the back buried under heaps of other stuff.
Anyway, the main blade is 7mm thick, 1500 diameter with tooth holders that are riveted on. The tooth itself has a round tapered shank with one side flat and it just bumps in and out. The front edge has a recess hole that appears like it could be for a screw however it is just a divet where a punch could be used to drive the taper in tight. It looks to me like a terrific setup for cutting hard timber where teeth cut be changed in a few minutes, if I can source the actual teeth it will be excellent. I paid $800 au for the pair.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:06:19 PM »

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:08:01 PM »

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:10:05 PM »

This photo is the tooth holder with the tooth removed

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:11:36 PM »

Tooth

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:13:25 PM »

Tooth pic showing flat edge on shank

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:15:36 PM »

Tooth showing opposite side ( flat side of shank facing down )

BargeMonkey · « **Reply #30 on:** August 20, 2020, 08:54:15 PM »

I dont know the conversion rate but I think the tooth profile is LONG outdated especially for a slasher saw. I've got the same simonds saw that Maine logger posted, it takes a beating and that a 4" insert tooth that's firmly held in the saw, those "teeth" on your saw are pinned on the end of the shank buddy I think your just getting into a mountain of problems

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 20, 2020, 09:22:00 PM »

Barge monkey, appreciate your comments thanks.
I had a look at a video of the slasher saw because i didn’t who what it was, yeah looks mighty. I decided to buy these 2 saws because it was a much smaller investment to get me up and running if I just use one saw for a donor to the other. If later I need to buy a Simonds saw that will be ok. The spindle size on these is 52mm, do you know what your spindle size is ?
There may be a possibility that the Quadco insert holder and teeth could fit so that’s my next follow up.

BargeMonkey · « **Reply #32 on:** August 20, 2020, 09:27:12 PM »

I'm not trying to knock it believe me I'm the king of cheap. The tooth spacing and shoulder spacing look wide, those saws dont look like a true "slasher saw" to me. Maybe in softwood, but your saying "hardwood" and buddy it just beats them to death if your in the bigger stuff all day. I will measure the tooth spacing and count, I want to say my 54" has 42x teeth, just your tooth spacing looks so far apart for a 60" saw.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 20, 2020, 09:56:13 PM »

Yeah ok, I’m hearing you. Since I don’t know what these saws were designed for, maybe they were for breaking down ( ripping ) . Most of my experience is breaking down / ripping. My Dad and I built a swingsaw when I was a lot younger, it’s 2 wheels that are height adjustable, powered by a 4cyl Volkswagen engine, motor one end, saw the other. I’ve really only ever used chainsaws for cross cutting.

BargeMonkey · « **Reply #34 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:10:00 PM »

My Bells has a 4.4 Acert, 120hp, it takes every ounce of power at 2200 rpm standing on its nose drooling to run that processor and conveyor, I've seen a few guys talk 30hp to run a circle saw and it's not possible. Yeah just something about the tooth spacing and profile looks way off, too far apart for a slasher saw. No one else has seen those bits down there? They look simple to change but again hardwood it doesnt take much to shear a small pin. Simonds teeth are 8.00 each ? The tool for the rivets is handy, I can basically change a tooth about every 2 mins in and out if they aren't bound in, really the only way to go with a slasher saw that I know of.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:11:07 PM »

Photo of swingsaw, I have a big blade that also goes on it, cutting fence posts in this picture but often used for breaking down logs before they go on the saw bench. They were mostly home built and sleeper cutters used them to cut railway sleepers. My dad has been passed on for 4 years so this old machine has a lot of sentimental value as we mostly built it from scraps with a fair bit of lathe work.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:12:25 PM »

I’m listening Barge

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:14:20 PM »

mike_belben · « **Reply #38 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:37:06 PM »

Timberjack.. It looks like a god awful dangerous idea but i love the home made saw and the time it gave you bonding with the ol. May he rest in peace amen

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:50:05 PM »

Thanks Mike, the saw pulls towards the operater however as long as the saw is set and sharpened properly they are really not anywhere near as dangerous as it looks, I have added a kill switch that I have to keep my hand on to keep the motor running, it’s pretty easy to bog that motor to a stall, the saw is meant to go up and down as it moves forward.
The job in the photos, I had 300 posts to cut out of yellow box, it’s notorious to blunten chainsaws, started the job with a 395 husky but was not getting 10 posts and then it was a major sharpen so I got the swing saw out and the radial blade handled it no worries ( no carbide ) just a brush once a day with the barstard file.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #40 on:** August 20, 2020, 10:54:19 PM »

Barge, I’ve measured the teeth distance, they are 4 and 3/4 inches apart, there is 40 teeth around the 60 inch saw. Also they are offset, one to the left one to the right conseqitively which I believe is easier on horsepower however I’m hearing you about the slasher saw and the small pins on these. Nothing ventured nothing gained, let’s see where the outcomes go.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #41 on:** August 21, 2020, 10:26:38 PM »

TJ5, Those photos really show what you have. The gullets and tooth spacing are rip style but the teeth have no hook so it has to be cross cut. The rust appears light with out pitting. If so those plates could be cut down, at a loss of diameter, and retoothed to a current style. And of course the saws could be used until the teeth are gone. And as stated your teeth could be rebuilt. There are shops that do this type of work.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #42 on:** August 22, 2020, 07:45:55 AM »

Moodnacreek, thanks again for your reply. I don’t know of anyone using or supplying those Simonds teeth here in Australia. I like the look of them and they are well priced. Also I don’t know of a shop here that would tackle the job however I believe I can do it myself. It wouldn’t be easy and would be time consuming but I reckon I can successfully get it done.
Do you think it would work ok if I did not reduce the saw size, just remove the current tooth holders and cut the angled and bevelled cavity to match the Simonds slasher teeth?

moodnacreek · « **Reply #43 on:** August 22, 2020, 08:35:44 AM »

I suppose if the gage is the same they could be cut in. Is sounds like a job for a milling machine and a large index wheel of some kind. Also those teeth may be out there some where.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #44 on:** August 22, 2020, 08:52:22 AM »

Yes it would be good to get hold of a bucket of those teeth.

mike_belben · « **Reply #45 on:** August 22, 2020, 11:04:41 AM »

Youd need to build a fairly simple fixture to hold the saw to a basic knee mill so that the diameter of the saw clears the column of the mill. But i do wonder if the saws are hardened. I could picture that being a very loud, obnoxious operation if they are.

And forget about any small thread tapping operations if it is hard. Would need annealing first. If that happens who knows what distortion and subsequent necessity to hammer it back may occur. I guess im saying its a job maybe best for a pro saw shop. You could spend a lot of money hiring a non-saw specific machine shop to retool it and possibly still result in a mediocre outcome.

Im Polish. I try to repurpose everything as cheap as possible and have a love affair with hot chips and weld spatter, but ya cant win em all.

mike_belben · « **Reply #46 on:** August 22, 2020, 11:07:22 AM »

Take a hand file to a gullet and see if it shaves chips like soft mild steel or just grazes over without removing metal. If its hard, carbide and slow removal are your only option other than plasma/waterjet/lazer and grinding but those are specialty operations with specialty labor rates.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #47 on:** August 22, 2020, 01:55:08 PM »

Mike, very good advice, I’m hearing you and you have confirmed a lot of thought tangents that I’ve had plus you’ve added a few that I haven’t considered. You’re right, the next step is the hardness test to see what I’m dealing with.
How do they make those Simonds blanks so cheap ?

.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #48 on:** August 22, 2020, 02:22:53 PM »

Assuming that the saw is hardened. The Simonds kodiak style tooth slides into the saw on a double bevel all the way round with a hole for the locating rivet therefore no need for a thread.
To do a retrofit in an elementary necessity style I was thinking of marking out the whole saw then working on creating the radius where the back of the Simonds tooth rests. To do this I would drill a small pilot hole or just centre pop and then possibly use a magnetic drill
( rotabroach ) to create a hole the size of the pointy part of the bevel, then use a hardened rotary tool to mill out the bevel ( countersink ) from each side, this part is perhaps best done on a mill which I do have access to however it could be done with a countersinking tool on a large electric hand drill or bench press drill using a stopper.
Next drill the holes for rivet locators. All this could be done with fluid applied to keep any heating low.
Then lay the saw on table and make the straight cuts with a 1mm cutting disc on a 5 inch grinder but work around the saw very small steps to prevent heating, then with a grinding wheel, very carefully working around the saw, grind in the double bevel using a Simonds tooth to individually fit each cutout.
Is saw tension going to become an issue at this point, it would be better to be able to make the cuts and bevel without heat, one at a time and fit each new Simons tooth before going on to the next cut.
This is my current thinking on how I would do it with the most minimum gear to keep heat low so as to not create distortion. Labour intensive and skilled but I believe possible.
Am I missing something ? I’m keen to hear the Polish answer.

mike_belben · « **Reply #49 on:** August 22, 2020, 02:49:07 PM »

.

The poslky in me says theres no way im buying inserts. Im laboring to make money, not spend it. I will study the saw tooth angles before the invention of inserts, replicate it and run it. Building back with hardface as needed.

Man made a lot of lumber before carbide came along. And did a lot of business before the internet. The old way can still work, it just comes at a cost.

Filing $5 breaker points or replacing $400 integrated coil rails. Maybe the old way wasnt terrible after all.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 22, 2020, 04:22:36 PM »

Yeah ok. Mike when you say filing a $5 breaker point, I’m not sure what a breaker point is. Is it the saw itself where when filing you are very slowly reducing your saw size or is it some sort of attached point. Where I’m going with this is that the benefit with the inserts is that you are not wearing out the saw itself, the inserts are protecting and preserving the saw which is a far greater cost then the inserts.
I do value your opinion and respect and admire your thought pattern about using the old ways which also has often worked well for me and has helped my business grow.
I had to start from scratch again when I was 45, I’m now 50. I didn’t go bankrupt, it took me 14 years of hardship to pay everybody so when I got going again I started with anything, mostly broken needed fixing, I certainly must have looked poverty stricken to a lot of people however I learned to think differently at commercial opportunities and often retrofit older equipment with new aftermarket components that are readily available at a fair price. Now we are getting wind behind our sails and we have a low debt ratio. I breed working stock horses, I have built up a herd of cattle that I run on leased country and have a hay operation.
Where I run my cattle in some very rugged country the grazing land is returning to forest and the 2 owners who I lease with are happy for me to log the region, it’s about 3500 acres. I recently bought a Cat D6D model dozer in very good condition. I’m going to do some selective logging but then on the bulk of downgrade trees I can see a great opportunity for firewood with a big commercial style processor. In my case it’s probably worthwhile for me to go with the inserts however I’m intrigued by the hardfacing concept. Having a lot of welding experience like yourself, I know that where there is high impact, there is a limit to the amount of welding that can be down repitisously to the edge of that saw before a chunk of saw comes away from metal fatigue so that produces an argument for inserts, maybe those inserts are homemade and hardfaced to protect the saw itself.
I recently bought a retired combine harvester that everything is still working with a 200hp cat motor, air con cab, heaps of hydraulics. Also bought an old cherry picker on an old international 4x4 truck. The header and cherry picker have enough parts to go a heck of a long way towards building the firewood processor, yes it’s a lot of work but it’s also a learning experience that makes me better at what I do. I live on a family farm that will largely go to my brother in days to come so I’m hoping to buy a bit of dirt for myself and the wife and kids, the firewood means cashflow and it’s a great way to develop a rough block of country.

mike_belben · « **Reply #51 on:** August 22, 2020, 04:35:56 PM »

Well we are cut from the same cloth for sure buddy!

The saw chunking is possible. You asked me what my idea was.. I didnt say it was a good one!

Good on you for getting back on your feet. I been there. Wife and i lost two houses, briefly lived in vehicles with babies. 4 years in a camper. One day at a time right? Thats all anyone can handle.

The $5 breaker points was referring to old, old automotive distributor ignitions vs new stuff. Yeah it was annoying to maintain my bobcat distributor. Swapped over to newfangled electronic and now its REAL annoying to pay $300 and wait on shipping every time the new one quits. Wish i could find a supplier for the old style. New can come with its own issues. Its never good to be the final owner of something high tech. Not that this applies to saw inserts.. Im sure theyre a miracle and im just ranting about staying ahead of forced obsolescence.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 22, 2020, 04:46:15 PM »

Don’t get me started on forced obsolescence. Yes I fully understand everything you’ve said now, don’t know how I missed the points ignition, think I was on FM while you were on AM.
I think the most likely outcome is going to be the I’ll have to sweat it out over a couple of monster saws to make them awesome and on the metallurgy / hardness / tension etc. I’m most happy to hear from anyone who has some input based on practical experience.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #53 on:** August 22, 2020, 08:34:13 PM »

I doubt those saws are hard steel. After all they get hammered whenever necessary. Big saws have personalities . Some plates behave and some barely get by. A real good anvil man will try to fix a saw others have failed on. Good luck finding this craftsman as there are very few that are top notch. They will tell you that uneven temper in a saw plate is something nobody can fix. I have wasted alot of time and money having mill saws hammered and made some enemies. I did get to know 2 real exceptional saw hammers, thank God as I was starting to hate them all. Anyhow those saws need to be run hard while trying to find parts. You want to saw wood hard without warming the saw plates and get to know them.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #54 on:** August 22, 2020, 09:47:38 PM »

G’day Moodnacreek,
There appears to be a lot of experience in what you’ve said so I will keep all that in mind.
I’ve done a file test this morning and the plates don’t seem to be hard at all.
Building the whole firewood processor is going to take some time, in the mean time I’ll be doing a bit of logging and I’m hoping to set up a small sawmill even if it’s just to get my hand in for some sawn boards that I need myself initially. I can break down with the swingsaw in previous pics ( posted ) though I would like to buy / acquire or build something like what we call a Canadian break down saw, I reckon it’s built in Canada but I don’t know. They were popular here but the more modern mills have moved on from them. A big stationary saw with the log on a carriage.
I recently bought a saw bench that came out of a high production pine mill previous to that it was used for hardwood, it has powered rollers and needs about 60hp, I’m planning to power it with a tractor engine and gearbox. The mill replaced it with a karasaw one man bench.
In order to get these plates spinning in the near future I could certainly make use of a straight out docking saw for firewood just to create blocks from logs. What sort of spindle speed would you think I’d need or tip speed (either way ) for those big saws?
Also I am going to need to power it and I am thinking a mechanical shaft drive to belts on the saw rather that hydraulic to avoid a drop in horsepower. I’m not 100% certain on how to build the spindle, say for example I have a 2 inch shaft mounted on a bearing each side of the belt drive pulley ( shaft would have a key way for the pulley. Then a saw collar, how wide should I go in the collar for that size saw ? Then have one big thread with a big 2 inch type nut, is this going to be sufficient. I’ve noticed those Simmons saws have 4 smaller bolts around the collar area.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #55 on:** August 22, 2020, 10:07:31 PM »

I do have this little gearbox off a grass slasher that I thought might be another way to get the 90 degree angle into the power train for the saw. Maybe this one is not big enough, perhaps a bigger one.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #56 on:** August 22, 2020, 10:09:24 PM »

Previously the power was taken from this box on 3 x C section v belts.

mike_belben · « **Reply #57 on:** August 23, 2020, 07:43:29 AM »

Automotive CV axles should have no issue with the rpm or flexibility. I would make them long to reduce the joints operating angle for longer life.

Can saw blanks be annealed and retempered?

You could run direct drive off belts to reduce power loss but then you need the saw swingarm to be running on a live shaft at its pivot point so it shortens the life of the pivot bearings. Especially since the saw and bearings will be always running even if youre fidding with a log jam, the bearing life is being consumed. To change the bearings means pulling an awkward saw and swingarm. Itd be physically easier to change a CV driveshaft as you wouldnt need to be breaking down sheaves and shafts with a big saw mounted to them.

I suggest running off a rockford type clutch for a direct drive saw head so you can uncouple.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #58 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:15:43 AM »

Mike,
Yeah I’m thinking the same way at this point but maybe a long PTO shaft as it can slide as well as act as a constant velocity, as the saw goes up and down the length of the shaft may vary slightly. I’ve got one off a hay mower conditioner that should work ok. It’s about 8 or 9 foot long. I think the saw will still need to be mounted on a shaft with a couple of bearings but the pto shaft could be detachable from the saw mount
I don’t know the answer to whether saw blanks can be annealed and retempered. I can’t see why not if you were set up a bit to do the job. These saws here don’t seem to be hard at all.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #59 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:53:20 AM »

I would copy/use a mandrel off a circle saw mill. Easy for me as I have a few laying around. The spindle size is standard, 2". The collars can be different , generally 6 to 8". There is 2 pin hole patterns, std. and large, new saws are drilled for both. Rpm somewhere around 600 or where the saws run flat plus a little. Dia. of mandrels found: 2 7/16, 2 11/16 and 2 15/16." [common sizes].

mike_belben · « **Reply #60 on:** August 23, 2020, 09:25:10 AM »

Quote from: Timberjack5 on August 23, 2020, 08:15:43 AM

I think the saw will still need to be mounted on a shaft with a couple of bearings

Right. I started typing then decided an ugly sketch was more efficient.

These are the three ways i can imagine right now to avoid a hydraulic motor. I only think it makes sense if you have insufficient horsepower, hydraulic cooling and reservoir limits, and if the junk is laying around the yard already for a one off build and you dont mind the maintenance. Production machine building, i would look at hydraulic motors designed for load bearing to eliminate the top shaft and bearings.

Commercial zero turns use them and they have an integrated brake shoe system with various hub types. The brake could be a nice E stop feature to shutr down.

Belts and sheaves do have the benefit of serving as a clutch if you bind the saw, and also of doing a simple pulley change to alter the rim speed of the saw if you get the calcs wrong or need more torque etc a torque convertor belt system would give one on the fly adjustment between cutting softer limbwood vs very hard ugly butt logs.

A pto shaft driving the saw direct at the saw hub would endure a lot of operating angle change through the stroke and may produce resonance in saw itself as the Ujoints are accelerating and deccelerating against themselves whenever the joint angles arent equal and opposite. This is why i would prefer CV joints and would also prefer belts between the shaft and saw to help dissipate any resonance.
I would really hate to see a saw frag from shaft harmonics that fatigue and work harden it to failure.

I feel a shaft drive should have some form of a stall clutch. Whether spring pucks or belts that'll burn. You dont want to stop an engine from full speed, or explode a pto shaft and throw it at 3000rpm. Obviously guarding would be wise.

A hydraulic motor has its issues but sure does solve a lot of issues cause by trying to avoid the hydraulic motor in the first place!

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 23, 2020, 07:41:54 PM »

Moodna, thanks, you have confirmed a thought lurking about for me to find a spindle setup out of circle saw bench set up as you say. The other info of speeds etc is very helpful.
Mike you have brought up several issues worth thought.
The options here are that I’ve got this complete harvester ready to wreck for the build, it has a cat 3208 ( seems to be 225 hp ) it has a hydraulically activated small cylinder on the bell housing of motor that moves a flat sheave ( we call it pulley )

on a pivot that runs onto the back of a big 4 belt drive, this tightens the belts and obviously is capable of transferring 225 hp. It has a nice air con cab that I thought would make the processor more civilised. The harvester could be left as it is and converted to a processor. Here is a link to one in action.

The other option is to build it all onto a trailer that is more mobile and probably better for getting into rugged country as well as being more valuable if it ever needed to be sold especially if I made a presentable job of building it. I have 4 x new universal beams ( I beams - 10 inch x 6 inch X 30 feet )
This build is going to take some time as I will be working on it periodically so I am thinking that in the mean time I could set up a dedicated dock saw on 2 of the steel beams with a set of wheels and a tow hitch. I have a 80hp tractor that offers multiple PTO speeds so if it could potentially drive that saw then it would be fairly straight forward to set up, given the lower h.p. then the direct drive of Pto could be good. Of the designs that you’ve drawn Mike, the one that appeals to me the most is the live shaft pivot with belts to saw, it gives some clutch effect however those belts and sheaves won’t be cheap.

Instead, say it was direct drive from pto, with a long shaft direct to centre of saw spindle, A friction clutch could be added into the shaft, commonly available with pto fittings. I can produce the 600rpm from the tractor no problems plus modify saw speed easily from tractor PTO gearing.
Remember the saw is an offset tooth, one right, one left consecutively. The Simmons Kodak slasher style seems to be a straight cut. I know for a fact that a straight cut sucks more horsepower so this saw might work ok on 80hp direct drive. I can set it up without to much fuss. The tractor has 2 sets of hydraulic remotes, air con cab along with an independent PTO clutch to activate the saw. The remotes could be used to drive the cylinder on the up / down for saw and the second remote for log feed.
I can’t see why the operator could not sit in cab to operate say, maybe a swivel seat would be good.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #62 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:00:31 PM »

Mike, thinking about the saw resonance issue from Pto joints, then to fix this the PTO goes to live pivot centre, then belts, this way the pto shaft can be mounted along a beam or some structure where it can be saddled by appropriate guarding.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #63 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:18:24 PM »

This tractor can be made available to run A PTO docking saw

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #64 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:20:38 PM »

Harvester available for parts, all still running, motor in good order 3208 cat 225 hp.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #65 on:** August 23, 2020, 08:25:10 PM »

PTO friction clutch as mentioned, this can literally go directly onto the pto shaft at tractor, 5 minute job.

mike_belben · « **Reply #66 on:** August 23, 2020, 11:04:37 PM »

Youve got a good junk pile to start with. Theres a very similar 4wd articulated bean picker in town thats been there atleast a decade. I inquired but $5k is too rich for this bum.

Shaft vibrations may be a non issue, i have no experience in circle mills, just wanted to make sure i brought it up so you could investigate. Universal joint shafts will only cancel out if they have equal and opposite operating angles across the two joints, one at each end. Otherwise they suffer from back and forth torsional binding forces, like the rubber band for the wind up prop of an old toy airplane [back before playstation.]

Ive admired the dibble's machine for a long time. Business must be good, thats a lotta knee wall they poured for that hoop house!

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 24, 2020, 12:05:17 AM »

Mike I paid 1000 au for that Harvester, $716 U.S. on today’s exchange. A neighbour was a serious don’t wanted, his wife was nagging him to get it out of the driveway and we drove it home.
I appreciate what you, Moodna, Barge and others have brought up as I now have a much more sound mental picture of how I will achieve the workings from what I already have here.
Yes the Dibble setup is a sight to behold and it certainly looks like it’s going well.
If I can get my head around it all enough it might be possible to build the temporary dock saw using the big motor and build it in such a way that it’s designed to be finished off as the complete processor. If it can cut blocks to start with it can make money. There might be some big belts on that header that can be used to drive direct from cat motor to saw. Everything else on the processor would be hydraulic and there will be enough belts and sheaves to get power to hydraulic pumps as well. I’m pretty sure it’s now the biggest engineering challenge of my life so far and that seems to be half the fun.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #68 on:** August 24, 2020, 12:21:18 AM »

This is my other parts donor. It’s a 4x4 International, carries 5 to 6 tonne,
Has a big old 360 petrol in it. I paid 900 au for it and then bought the harvester for the cat motor to put in this but that’s now changed. I’ll put a diesel in this , rob what ever hydraulics I need off it and convert it to a tipper for picking up firewood in steep country. I’ve got a 2x2 tipper with a splitter box that is on road and in good shape that can be used in the mean time. The boom is mounted on a hydraulic rotating turntable. I reckon there is the makings for a driven axle forestry trailer in this with the grapple boom but that will have to be further down the track. There is another beam that was on top 35 footer, i was thinking that I had scored a couple of nice steel beams but it turns out they are fibre glass with steel and brass bearing inserts and so on.

Satamax · « **Reply #69 on:** August 24, 2020, 07:10:42 AM »

Hey Timberjack5.

Have you ever seen this one?

I think that's the best DIY combi machine i've seen on youtube. 1 log split every 4 seconds on average.

Myself, having the Brimont to finish, the Latil on the waiting list too. I had the parts to make a huge splitter. 150cm chairlift tensioning hydraulic cylinder. Which could be capable of 50 tons at 280 bars. A 62kw draglift motor. All sorts of pumps. A HEB 280 beam which already had one slide for the pusher.

But having no time. I said dang it.

And bought the palax. https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=111569.0

No waste of time. And it can nearly get to work straight away. There's a few details which are not up to par.

mike_belben · « **Reply #70 on:** August 24, 2020, 07:56:32 AM »

Im gonna have my wife read your posts so she will know that im not the only one with this disease. There are two.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #71 on:** August 24, 2020, 08:06:18 AM »

Laugh out loud, it’s not all for nothing then Mike.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 24, 2020, 08:09:07 AM »

Hey Satamax
Thanks, I had a look at that machine, yeah it’s really good. I checked out your machine as well, very nice.
That’s some big parts you’ve got stored up there.
Always good to hear from you mate.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #73 on:** August 24, 2020, 01:48:36 PM »

Everything on firewood processers has been done and pretty much been perfected except one small item and thats the splitter. The more wings you have the sooner you will be welding. Build your deck and infeed real heavy and the saw also. Good enough is not good. Extra heavy duty and nice small wood. Watch a sawmill carriage that weighs tons saw logs you could lift. That's what you want, small wood and big iron. When you load your deck you want to be able to drop the wood if that's what is fast. Sounds ignorant? yes but that's the way it needs to be. And if the machine really does not need to be mobile don't build it on a trailer and consider detaching the hyd. power unit. Everything is better on skids not wheels.

mike_belben · « **Reply #74 on:** August 24, 2020, 02:44:16 PM »

About 3x a day i start and then stop building a processor. Its been a huge exercise in restraint to wait for a few more container loads of my junk from up in mass. I only have enough parts, metal and tooling here to build a mediocre one right now but boy would i love to.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #75 on:** August 24, 2020, 04:48:45 PM »

Gday Moodna,what you’ve said makes a lot of sense.
I’m an old heavy fab man so it’s right up my street to go heavy in any case, I’ve got heavy welding equipment and know how so I can see myself rethinking the whole thing on a heavier level, maybe a bit modular like you’ve said with a detached power unit. When you said the more wings you have, the sooner you will be welding, are you referring to the wings on the splitter ?

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #76 on:** August 24, 2020, 04:58:48 PM »

Mike, restraint is a valuable skill and not easily learned. I learned it the hard way and I know it’s more valuable. A very wealthy and wise man that I worked for one time said to me, ‘ the hardest thing to learn in life is restraint ‘, I couldn’t fully understand it when he said it to me but I remembered it and eventually I learned what it really meant. It helps me a great deal in buying at the right price when the timing is right.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #77 on:** August 24, 2020, 07:47:47 PM »

T.J.5, Yes sir the splitter wings or knifes. Now understand I'm just runnin my mouth and talk is cheap [my grandfather always said]. Many think those box full of knifes is the answer and I suppose in some wood it could be. You know the raw material is everything. What I say about a heavy machine I stand behind but the design of the splitter , I can't say. The machine we have here is a copy of the Valley that I think is Timber Wolf today. It's never been moved and let me tell you those axels, hyd. tank, fuel tank and diesel are right in the blankity blank way!

mike_belben · « **Reply #78 on:** August 24, 2020, 10:40:03 PM »

Today i determined that i have enough giblets on hand to build a conveyor so i'll start with that and it'll be a godsend to have. I will probably break down my little tow behind splitter into a bare bones super basic processor with 395xp on a pivot after the conveyor is done, and then sit on my hands.

The tow behind air compressor unit i got for free recently has a 80hp 4 cyl deere and no air pump. But the radiator, muffler, fuel tank, shrouds, doors, control panel, oil cooler etc is all there. Its the perfect hydraulic skid and could easily be shared across several machines using QD's if needed in the future. Im gonna cut the axle and neck off this week and use those for the conveyor.

thecfarm · « **Reply #79 on:** August 25, 2020, 05:35:21 AM »

That last one will split some wood!! Saw a license plate from Maine on it.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #80 on:** August 25, 2020, 05:50:26 AM »

Gday Moodna,
My grandmother used to say a similar thing, she would say “ they will all tell you what to do but ask them for a leaf out of their cheque book” ha ha, but besides all that this is a mastermind group in my opinion of people who have similar interests and shared experience, it’s wise to take advice especially before running off to spend dollars without a decent plan.
Anyways what you’re saying about the wings / knives is very relevant to me, we have these hardwoods like iron bark, yellow box a variety of gums and many others but iron bark in particular is very dense and heavy and I’m not sure how I’m going to come up with a big enough cylinder to split a complete block and that’s why I’m researching and talking to you fellas apart from the fact that I’m finding the conversation really enjoyable.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #81 on:** August 25, 2020, 05:55:51 AM »

Gday Mike
I’m glad to hear that all this sawdust seems to be getting you fired up. I’ve got a 395xp myself so I’ll be keen to see a few pics as it comes together. That JD sounds very sweet. What’s a QD Mike?

mike_belben · « **Reply #82 on:** August 25, 2020, 06:39:01 AM »

Quick disconnect hose coupler.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #83 on:** August 26, 2020, 07:55:58 AM »

Mike I’ve just read a fair bit of the other thread about you fixin The hydraulics with Elma’s help, very blinking funny my friend, certainly for you at the time it wasn’t but you sure do tell the funny side of it. You’re obviously very switched on mechanically, hydraulically and the rest of it but you might make more money writing books about you’re crazy neighbours. Lol

Haleiwa · « **Reply #84 on:** August 26, 2020, 08:20:03 AM »

A word of caution for when you disassemble your old combine. I have scrapped one, and it is somewhat unnerving how much the balance can change as major components are removed. Be very careful not to be in a place where you can get pinched. The rotor is probably the heaviest part up high, but the cab, auger, elevators, and tank all weigh enough to shift the balance. If you cut the frame up, try to have most everything above it removed first.

mike_belben · « **Reply #85 on:** August 26, 2020, 08:55:34 AM »

Quote from: Timberjack5 on August 26, 2020, 07:55:58 AM

Mike I’ve just read a fair bit of the other thread about you fixin The hydraulics with Elma’s help, very blinking funny my friend, certainly for you at the time it wasn’t but you sure do tell the funny side of it. You’re obviously very switched on mechanically, hydraulically and the rest of it but you might make more money writing books about you’re crazy neighbours. Lol

glad you got your moneys worth!

I dont think im well suited to fortune or fame. Content to just fit in among the crazies and try to be helpful where i can. It gives me a lot of opportunities to demonstrate God's grace by not shooting them when i ought to. Love thy neighbor is a tough one out here, lemme tell ya! Easier said than done.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #86 on:** August 26, 2020, 05:24:13 PM »

Hey there Haleiwa, I’ll take that advice on board thanks. It’s something I’ve considered but now that you’ve mentioned it I’ll take some extra care with that.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #87 on:** August 26, 2020, 05:39:43 PM »

Mike, excuse my ignorance please, Middle TN, is that for Tennessee, where abouts do you live mate, I’ll have a look on the map, I’ll be able to see where you are in comparison to some of the other fellas on here. It’s sounds like some of you are not far from each other, Maine region.
I have visited the U.S. about 28 years ago, spent a week in New York then travelled across to Oklahoma on greyhound, was there for 6 weeks and then flew out of Denver to Los Angeles and was there just for a day. Only really got to see the countryside around Oklahoma, bit of Texas. Would have been great to see a lot more. It was a trip with a purpose, I studied at the Oklahoma horshoeing school with Reggie Kester. Had a business back here for a few years as a farrier then got into other things. Always done a few here and there over the years. Now a days, still got my original tools that I got with the coarse, I shoe my own mustering horses, I have to as the country has a lot of granite and in other parts a lot of loose rock, I do my buddies sometimes ( neighbour ) and we often join forces and ride together.

mike_belben · « **Reply #88 on:** August 26, 2020, 10:05:19 PM »

Yes, middle tenneessee. The state is divided into thirds. Im left of knoxville right of nashville but dont want to give any more specifics. Since my real name is out there it doesnt take much for an online scammer to get too much info.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #89 on:** August 26, 2020, 11:40:11 PM »

Yeah right O, too true mate I probably should be more careful cause they are definitely out there.

Today’s job, truss building. Got a shed to build for a client. The shed build is a part payment for the Cat D6D.

mike_belben · « **Reply #90 on:** August 27, 2020, 07:58:56 AM »

Nice truss. Is that a double I beam?! If so ive never seen one.

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #91 on:** August 27, 2020, 08:26:28 AM »

Just 2 beams slid up beside each other, I start off with them apart, tack it all up then stand the truss up on its edge and push one beam in against the other. First time I’ve done it this way, before I’ve clamped it down all the way along to stop it pulling but today I only had 2 clamps and couldn’t be bothered cutting wedges so I stood the truss up once it was tacked out on 4 corners of every joint. Then alternated one weld each side, left, right , left till it was all done. Straight as a gun barrell, I was surprised as its fairly thin material, painted the welds and looking sweet, it’s on the truck with the other steel, EWP straddled over it ready to launch in the morning.

mike_belben · « **Reply #92 on:** August 27, 2020, 08:40:04 AM »

Phew. My brain was turning inside out trying to picture how the mill mandrel could form a double I.

Whatd you cut all the leg angles with? Coldsaw? Bandsaw?

Timberjack5 · « **Reply #93 on:** August 27, 2020, 04:26:27 PM »

Yeah friction blade cut off saw

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