Saw mill restoration

Carpenter · December 13, 2009, 08:39:20 PM

Here are some progress pictures of the mill.

I tried to take more pictures today, but was having camera trouble. If the pictures would have turned out you would have seen a snow covered half finished mill. I do have the blade mounted now. Thank you James P, for the Lunstrum manual. I had actually downloaded it before, but had never read clear through it. Today I finally got the chance to work on it again today, but as the high tempurature was 3 degrees, I didn't accomplish much. The Lunstrum manual confirmed my suspicion about the homade loose collar not being right. I took the blade off and noticed a little build up on the fast collar. I steel wooled that off and put a straight edge on it and it seems to be true, with a slight dish. The blade is dished, but without any pressure obn it it appears to be dished evenly, I did put a 4' straight edge on it to be sure. The loose collar, you can see in the picture is just a disk cut out of 1/2" steel. Of course this is not right, but after cleaning everything up and putting it back together, The blade seems to run true, at least I think it will be safe to hook it up to the tractor and see what it does at operating speed.
The next step is to rebuild the friction wheels. We have found some conveyor belting for that. Oh, and I thought of a way to put a half twist in the belt, and make the mill run right. The solution is to put the tractor on the operators side with a half twist, and to build a set of log bunks that the belt runs under. The tractor with a thirty foot belt will be right at the end of my track and I think I have a 50 foot belt, so the tractor will be well out of the way. At this rate I probably won't be milling by Christmas, but at least I am still making progress.

James P. · December 13, 2009, 09:41:38 PM

carpenter good job , what size is the fast collar OD and what is the ID of the loose collar. I don't think that will work according to what all the experts (Saw Docs)say. I think you need to get a loose collar. find out what size you need and list it in wanted section .

Carpenter · December 13, 2009, 10:31:04 PM

Yeah, I know the loose collar is wrong. I live close to a machine shop and could have one built. As a matter of fact, Larry has let me use his lathe before, and I could make one that would be right. The fast collar is 6" diameter and it is slightly concave, as it should be. The loose collar is 8" in diameter and flat. It is just a piece of steel and is a little rough on the outside. It was odviously cut with a tourch. I will probably have to make a new collar. Another problem is that I set the height of the husk to give me 5/8" clearance above the homade collar. And in doing this I had to chisel out a 1" deep groove in the railroad ties that the husk is set on. Of course I did this before reading the Lunstrum manual. If I'd of had a 6" loose collar I could have set the husk an inch higher and gained an inch of useable blade. So, I will probably change that before drilling a hole in my track for the cable drum shaft.

Meadows Miller · December 14, 2009, 01:23:57 AM

Gday

Carpenter dont worry about getting it sawing by christmass you have made great progress in the last few months Mate ;) ;D ;D 8) 8) Ive been looking at mine for two years now :( :'( ;) :D :D

With the saw collars if your going to make one up you might as well make two fast and loose and go to 8" dia while your at it as the larger collers stand the saw up better and give the blade more support ;) Ive allways prefered 8" collars over 6" for any saw over 40" dia myself Mate

Regards Chris

Ron Wenrich · December 14, 2009, 05:55:16 AM

That won't work if its not the same sized collars. I know of a mill that had problems because their collars didn't match by a 1/16". Both collars need to be tapered. You can buy collars, which may be cheaper than trying to make your own.

bandmiller2 · December 14, 2009, 07:56:51 AM

Carpenter,I have made loose collars from weight lifter weights if you have the use of a metal lathe no big deal.The collars are the most critical part of a circular mill the very best would be to remachine the fast collar along with the loose one you need.You can either shim up the whole husk or the bearings to get your collar to knee clearance right.Looks like you used 1/2"all thread to hold the bearing block down,thats really not heavy enough go with the heaviest good grade bolts you can fit through the bearing block.Carpy your well on your way and your workmanship looks good.[if it was easy everyone would be doing it] Frank C.

C5C Tree Farmer · December 14, 2009, 09:47:57 PM

Carpenter
A couple points on belting. In the realm of long flat drive belts there is one negative natural element to deal with...crosswind. If you try to run a straight belt in a hard pull with a crosswind the wind will catch the slack side and derail the belt. The best way to run it is with a single twist and it must be twisted in the right direction so the slack side is supported by the taunt side. If the belt is twisted the wrong way the wind will catch the slack side and....

.
Tractive effort transferred by the belt can be improved by increasing belt length but more can be gained by increasing belt width. 6" is marginal for sawmill work...8" is ok to good and 10" is great. Flat belts do not work in the rain.

Depending on the amount of crosswind and the length of the belt you may have to offset your tractor in relation to the sawmill pulley to compensate for the drift of the belt in the wind.
With a 24" pulley there is a good chance that this mill may have been steam powered at one time. Most traction engine flywheels were 48" and ran at 250 rpm which would give you an arbor speed of 500 rpm which would be about right.
Some saw blades are stamped with the blade info...gauge,no.of teeth. and rpm...usually near the saw collar area. What style tooth does your blade have?
Your mill project is being followed with keen interest here in ND. Good Luck!

Carpenter · January 17, 2010, 08:07:03 PM

I finally got the chance to work on the mill again this weekend. I got the drive works hooked up. It looks like everything will work just fine. Everything took some modification or entire rebuilding to make it work. I was thinking today that there are very few parts on this mill that I haven't taken apart and changed in some way shape or form. For the main friction drive wheel I just had to cut the rubber disks and the wooden disks and put it on the husk, not too complicated. I also made the drive belt out of an old baler belt. The old reverse wheel just ran on wooden bearings and evidently rocked back and forth so that it only turned when engaged. I used an old wheel from a rotary mower for the reverse wheel, It rocks back and forth on a hinge mechanism that bolts on to the husk, everything is greaseable. I just didn't like the idea of wood bearings.
I had to cut the welds off of the cable drum and move the drum 6" to have enough room to get the bearings in place. I got the drive wheels on, hooked up the control lever measured the distance for the linkage, I had a bar found in my scrap pile that looked long enough. The holes for the linkage needed to be 42" apart center to center. The bar that I had found was exactly 42" long. Fortunately I have a welder. Then I hooked up the linkage and found that there was not enough throw on the control lever, evidently we modified everything just enough for it not to work. Fortunately I have a welder.
At the end of the day I can spin the blade and push the lever forward and the cable drum turns and if I pull back on the lever the cable drum turns the other way, so I consider it a very successfull day.
I really think by the time I finish this project I will be able to build a mill from a few bearings and some scrap metal.

fishpharmer · January 17, 2010, 08:34:39 PM

Carpenter, that mill is looking really good. Nice work. Keep up the good work.

Maybe you said this already, but what power unit are you using for the mill?

Carpenter · January 17, 2010, 09:34:44 PM

It will be run by a flat belt from a John deere 530.

sawthemlogs · January 17, 2010, 10:47:44 PM

Let me say your doing a fine job..my mill looked like yours when i got it,only mine has the double bearings on the madrel.mine had wood husk frame but when i rebuilt i used channel iron instead of wood..i had it .still used wood on carriage though.mine is right hand mill.have pics on the other post(frozen rick elevator).I hooked my 1944j.d. model D to it just to see what it will do ,did just fine.I do have a weighted idler pulley on the drive belt,i would suggest that would be a good thing for you with the 530...it will keep slack out of the belt.i have added a tire so a can use the pto instead of the belt..its lot easier than the belt heres a pic of thetire set up... just keep at it 8)

the only thing you wuold have todo is use v belts being yours is left hand

beenthere · January 17, 2010, 11:34:01 PM

sawthemlogs

A little protection form the PTO shaft and the drive wheel against the flat pulley would be great. Either would/could give you quite a thumpin is too close and/or slipped while running.

Makes me nervous thinkin about it. Grandpa had his clothes torn off just brushing against the PTO shaft at the universal joint. He lived, just wished he hadn't.

york · January 18, 2010, 04:09:10 AM

I agree 100% with beenthere-drive line should be covered,not from you,but other people that stop by-plus the area behind your tractor should be cleaned up,nothing to trip over...the way you reversed your power,is very good thinking-i had a long jack shaft running under my mill that cost too much money.....

bandmiller2 · January 18, 2010, 07:14:07 AM

Good job Carpy,it looks so simple but takes so much time to setup.Is that drum between the ways for the cable?if so you will have trouble with your bridging between the way timbers may have to notch them out or put a larger drum on the shaft.A larger drum would be easier on the wire cable.Frank C.

jwoods · January 18, 2010, 07:44:00 AM

Carpenter, that looks great! 8)

Carpenter · January 18, 2010, 10:07:17 AM

Quote from: bandmiller2 on January 18, 2010, 07:14:07 AM
Good job Carpy,it looks so simple but takes so much time to setup.Is that drum between the ways for the cable?if so you will have trouble with your bridging between the way timbers may have to notch them out or put a larger drum on the shaft.A larger drum would be easier on the wire cable.Frank C.

Frank, I had thought about that. Because of the way that the cable drum is attatched to the wheel that rocks back and forth to engage the two friction wheels it has to be right where it is. putting a larger drum on the system would change the gear ratio and the carraige speed. So, I think I will have to notch the cross pieces. One thing that I just thought of though, is that I might need a longer drum. As I set this mill up with a 60' track and originally it had a 42' track. should I use 3/8" cable or would 1/4" work?

Sprucegum · January 18, 2010, 02:16:35 PM

I have 5/16 cable on mine and it seems to do the job all right ;D

The cable goes from one end of your carriage to the end of the track, around a pulley, back to the drum, around it about 3 or 4 times, then to the other end of the track, around a pulley, and back to the other end of the carriage.

Your drum is long enough - you will need 130 feet of cable though.

sawthemlogs · January 18, 2010, 02:53:53 PM

actually i do have l shaped guard in front ,,i just moved it to take the pic....thanks for the heads up...comments advise is always good with me,wether bad or good

bandmiller2 · January 18, 2010, 08:34:52 PM

Carpenter 1/4 will work but I think you'd be better off and get longer service from the 3/8 wire rope.Frank C.

Meadows Miller · January 19, 2010, 03:44:22 AM

Gday

Looking good Carpy I use 1/2 cable an get a great runn outa it myself ;) ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

Tripp · January 19, 2010, 08:26:37 AM

That old mill is looking great. It's great to see someone willing to take on such a project. Very difficult but extremely rewarding.

Tripp

Carpenter · February 06, 2010, 12:10:19 AM

Ok, I know its been a while. But its also been cold and I've been buisy. But, I finally hooked the tractor up to the mill today and got it up to speed. I intended to take pictures but it got dark again. Happens every night I know but it always gets dark before I'm ready. Anyway, things went well. It was not hard to get the 530 into position, the belt did flop a little, I ran it with no twist in it, but it did not slip and sure moved the empty carraige easily. I only ran it in first gear which is much slower than I anticipated, but reverse is much faster than I anticipated. If you look at some of the pictures of the transmission you will see that I only have one reverse speed. I'll really have to watch the carraige to not slam it into the stops in reverse.
I got some 5/8" grade 8 bolts to bolt the arbor down with instead of the 1/2" ready rod Frank suggested that the 1/2" ready rod was not sturdy enough and I saw that the originall bolts were 5/8. Of course I had to special order those, haven't got the bill yet but I just didn't like the thought of that blade coming loose at any rpm. I feel much better about it now Thanks Frank.
Another issue that I dealt with today was the blade wobble. If you have followed this post. The blade had a quarter inch wobble in it. When we got the mill it had changed hands at least three times since it has been set up last and somewhere along the line the loose collar must have been lost and was replaced with an 8" diameter circle of 1/2" steel. I think one of the previous two owners started to set it up and just didn't get very far. The fast collar is 6". I wanted to get the blade up to speed before having a loose collar made but today when I got the blade up to speed it still had the quarter inch wobble. There is a machine shop close to us and in his scrap iron pile he has an old belsaw that he said we could use for parts. The loose collar on it was 5 and 15/16ths of an inch in diameter, so with a little lathe work to make the hole bigger I gave it a try and it worked. At least I could not see any wobble when the blade was up to speed. So now the only name on our no-name mill will be belsaw #8. And we all know it is not a belsaw.
The blade actually seems to be better supported with a smaller better made collar than with the homade one. Now with a pair of 6" collars I could raise the husk and give myself more useable blade. I have 19 1/2" of useable blade right now. I do plan to raise the husk but I am so close to cutting that I want to cut a little first.
By the way, I used 3/8" cable and I had to cut slots for the cable to run through as the cable for this mill has to feed from the bottom of the cable drum. And my cable drum is almost long enough. After I cut tomorrow I will pick a day eventually and take the cable drum off and make a longer one.
I still have to finish tying the track down, putting the splitter and the blade guide on and sharpen the blade and then I think I will be ready to cut. If everything goes right I will report on how well it cut tomorrow evening.
Of course theres still a lot to do and a lot of minor adjustments to make but maybe its more than a heap of scrap metal now.

fishpharmer · February 06, 2010, 12:25:32 AM

Carpenter, I know that was a great feeling to have the old girl singing to ya. I am fascinated with the circle mills and admire your stick toitiveness. I can't remember exactly but there was some recent discussion about running the carriage into the stops. Surely someone will find it.

keep up the good work.
Fish

Ron Wenrich · February 06, 2010, 06:22:35 AM

With a 6" and 8" collars, you'll never get rid of the wobble. Now that you have a matched set of collars, it will work much better.

Clearance on my saw is a little over 20". I have sawn logs as large as the carriage will allow, which is 42". You can raise the husk, but it won't make much difference in the size of log you can saw. I've only sawn 20x20 for one guy in the past 25 years.

You have a learning curve with the feeds. You don't want to come back too fast and be hitting your stops. You'll jar a log out of the dogs or cause it to slip a little. My stops consisted of old tires, when I ran hand mills. It gave a little spring instead of a jarring stop.

bandmiller2 · February 06, 2010, 07:40:58 AM

Good news Carpy,you will run into little glitches as you continue but nothing you can't handle.All those old mills seem to gigback at 40mph what you need to do is get the carriage moving back then back off on the lever kinda let it coast.Just before you reach its back position feather the feed to brake it.With a good sized log plus the carriage you have the weight of a compact car rolling you don't want that to hit a stop at high speed it plays hob with the mill and its foundation.What I did was dig a hole at each end of the mill and put in a section of utility pole,I'am talking 12"dia.,I fastened one good leaf from a light truck spring sticking up to hit a bumper on the end of the carriage.That stop is in no way attached to the mill so won't transfer shock.If your not paying attention and hit it fast it just bounces it right back.Many use auto coil springs or tires.How are the bits and shanks in your headsaw??It helps starting out to have good sharp well shaped bits and a saw hammered to your speed, eliminates alot of variables,won't hurt to try just don't get discouraged.Keep us posted Frank C.