The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems






Author Topic: Hard starting in cold weather questions  (Read 8350 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Hard starting in cold weather questions
« on: December 17, 2013, 02:49:19 PM »
Ok, so let me set the scene for you.

I have a 1968 case tractor which has a front end loader on it and a Kelley model 30 backhoe on it.

 

 

above is a shot from my gallery of pictures.

It has a gas engine, size 159 if that means anything to any of you.

It has a updraft carburetor which attaches to the engine and the intake manifold is connected to the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust manifold heats the intake when it's running. I think they did this to help it in cold weather.

But anyway, here is the situation. In cold weather it is very hard to start.

I have tried a engine oil heater by using one of those dip stick heaters and it didn't seem to work at all. The engine wouldn't start and it seem like all it was doing was burning the oil on the heater dip stick.

I tried the magnetic heater that attaches to the outside of the bottom of the oil pan. This didn't seem to work either.

In the winter when the temperature gets below 30° F the only way I can get it to start is to put a tarp over it and put a propane heater under the machine and let it run for a while, as I am charging the battery with a battery charger to get the battery up to full so it will turn over fast enough to start.

Recently I discussed this with a mechanic, whom I respect and believe him when he gives me advice.

I asked him is the heater heating the oil pan enough to make it turn over faster so it will start? Or is the heater heating the air under the tarp that is being drawn into the engine through the oil bath air filter and updraft carburetor so that the carburetor mixes the gas and air correctly and it will run.

He told me that most likely it is the warm air that is making the machine start.

So, to save on the propane expense, I thought I'd try an experiment to see if it was just warm air that would solve the problem.

I borrowed my wife's hot air hair drier and tried it one morning on the intake of the air cleaner. I put the hair drier on high and hot and took the cap off the air cleaner and put the hair drier right near the inlet and let it blow on the pipe a short while. And kept it there while I turned it over.
It started right up. I said wow, it is the hot air thing.
The next day I tried it again, nothing. wouldn't start.

Idea or method didn't work constantly.   

I gave up on the hair drier idea.

Now I'm back to the tarp and propane heater.

It was the coldest night last night so far this winter up here in the Northeast and the temp is now about 18° F. I thought it got up to 20 when the sun was out this morning but it is not there now.

I have been trying for some time to get the backhoe to start. I have run the heater under the tarp for more than 30 minutes and it still won't start. Normally it will.

So, my question to all of you who have experience in hard starting of older machines, is it the warmer air in the updraft carburetor or is the the heating of the oil in the oil pan or both?

I would like a solution that will work most every time, if it is at all possible.

Do I need to focus the heater on the intake manifold to heat it up enough to warm the air as it is drawn in?

Should I try and find my magnetic heater and attach it to the updraft carburetor or intake manifold?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Jim Rogers 
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline goose63

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Hankinson North Dakota
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 03:45:45 PM »
I have a Jinma tractor made in China :-X it has a lower hose heater that help's in the shed but for 110 bucks I can get a block heater
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

Offline T Welsh

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1242
  • Age: 62
  • Location: East Fallowfield,PA.
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodmizer LT-40-HD http://www.welshtreeservice.com
    • Share Post
    • Welsh Tree Service
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 03:54:16 PM »
Jim, Has it always been a cold blooded beast to start in the lower temperatures or has this become a problem in the last few years! I know in the last past years since the gas has had ethanol added I have cleaned out way to many carburetors. I know its old, and I love old! I would look into making sure the carb is up to snuff(rebuild kit) and then start from there,also being old she is down on compression which doesn't help either. Sometimes old age takes its toll on all of us! I like the way you are going about trouble shooting it ;) Tim

Offline sprucebunny

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3973
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Northern NH
  • Gender: Female
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 04:28:39 PM »
Warming the battery will make more amps available. Take it indoors overnight if possible.

Block heaters have worked well for my older stuff but yesterday the electric fuel pump on my Skidozer ( Ford 300/6) wasn't picking up gas. Fixed that by moving the fuel line to a 5 gallon container.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 05:00:49 PM »
After I got done writing up the questions above, I went outside and it started right up. I think it just needed more heat.  :D

 

 

Taking the battery out every night could be a solution, but it is not one that I would like to do every day. And I was wondering if the heat was warming the battery, it really isn't near the heater when I have it on.

In the above picture everything is in it's normal place while trying to start the engine except the tarp which I have pulled off to prevent it from melting on the hot exhaust. I have a thing I put over the exhaust stack to hold up the tarp so it won't melt for the few seconds it runs before I pull off the tarp.

I had the updraft carburetor rebuilt a few years ago. I say a few, but if I searched my records to find when it did it, I will probably be surprised, as it could be more than a few years ago.

I don't think that is something that I would like to do right away.

As I remember it, it has always been hard to start in the winter time. I know back in the 80's I was cutting firewood off a lot down the street that my mother owned one winter, and I had some trouble getting it started out there on site. I did start a fire under the engine once to get it going. And not wanting to do that again, I brought it back to this garage where my office is now, and put it in every night. And then trailered back to the job each morning. That got old real fast, but it started every time in an unheated garage.

I don't understand how an unheated garage can be warmer then outside. I put my mother's car in the garage the other day, covered with about an inch of snow. The next morning when I drove it out the snow had melted. I didn't understand how that could happen, being that it is an unheated garage.

I tried today to put the backhoe in her garage but when you have a 20' long garage and a 22' long backhoe it just don't fit enough to close the door. ::)

It is under the tarp now as it is snowing here again today. It's suppose to be 35°F out here tomorrow so I shouldn't have any starting problems then.

Thanks for all your advice and comments.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 05:03:08 PM »
Take the whole tractor indoors..  ;D  Inside with a good space heater or hanging propane heater will help.

But figuring that is not in the cards, a similar problem I've been helping with for a friend and his Ford  600.
Same scenario, but what finally got it started was to get some isopropyl in the fuel. Checked all things -
new battery, new plugs, points, coil, condenser, wires, distributor cap, and was told he had fresh fuel.
 NOT!!  He thought it was fresh, but he has a habit of starting his Ford and doing a small job, then turning it off. Start up for another small job and turning it off. Doesn't like to burn fuel so he shuts it down. Never lets it run to get warm and possible keep from water condensing in the carb and fuel tank.
But the isopropyl got him running and hopefully he will keep fresh gas in it.
I don't know if I can convince him to just leave it run when he goes for a tree, uses the chain saw to cut it down, pulls in the tree, pulls out the splitter, splits some wood, moves the splitter to another area, then moves the splitter to the shed, etc. Shutting off the tractor between each operation.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Holmes

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1782
  • Age: 70
  • Location: Royalston ma.
  • Gender: Male
  • 1840 house
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 05:25:26 PM »
 Jim any chance you have some water in a line or filter that is freezing and you are thawing it.  That could be happening at any low points in the fuel line or filter.   
Think like a farmer.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 05:26:31 PM »
What is isopropyl? and where can I get it?

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 05:42:25 PM »
Quote
What is isopropyl? and where can I get it?

Various product names include it, and one is called Iso-Heat.  There is also Heat, but the Iso-Heat is the right one. There are other brands, some have methanol and some have isopropyl. I gather that for water the isopropyl is better. If water is frozen in the line or tank, maybe the methanol is better. Not sure.
 
To the other:
Quote
Taking the battery out every night could be a solution, but it is not one that I would like to do every day.

That removing the battery to a warm place, if it would work, then it is far less trouble than the several other things you have been doing... heater, tarp, battery charger hooked up, etc.  Just sayin... if it works.
Maybe a new battery is a good thing too.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Peter Drouin

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 9271
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • A&P Saw mill LLC
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 05:47:56 PM »
Hi Jim I had an old 530 backhoe like that , gas rig, what I found is condensation in the distributor cap. If you look there's a small hole on the side of the cap that's to let the heat out , but it doesn't work  :D :D. So what I did is pop the cap off and use an old hair dryer and dry the inside and you get the spark back. You do have to have a good battery. Hope this helps.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Offline Peter Drouin

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 9271
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • A&P Saw mill LLC
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 05:52:43 PM »
And Jim I put in new points and a condenser every other year they rust up :D :D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 06:01:23 PM »
And Jim I put in new points and a condenser every other year they rust up :D :D
I converted the distributor to electronic ignition some years ago to get away from the points issue.

I'll look for some Iso-heat at my local autozone store.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »
Jim any chance you have some water in a line or filter that is freezing and you are thawing it.  That could be happening at any low points in the fuel line or filter.

I'll try draining the carburetor bowl, and clean the sediment bowl as well.

I'll check the battery's age but I don't think it's that old. If I have more problems maybe I'll try taking it out and putting it near the wood stove for a couple of hours, after it has been inside all night.

Also, I can't find Iso-heat listed at autozone or napa. Where do they sell it?
Are you talking about what we would call dry gas?

Jim Rogers.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline kevin19343

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Location: Southeastern Pa.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 06:45:36 PM »
When you shut down a hot tractor in cold weather, or if the tractor had wetness on it from dew or rain etc., you can easily get condensation inside the fuel tank and other vital areas. This can also happen if you add comparatively warm fuel to a cold fuel tank. This moisture can easily turn to ice causing all kinds of problems when you go to start the machine.

Ice can form inside the fuel tank causing blocked fuel lines or screens, it can freeze inside the carburetor causing blocked jets,  inside the distributor assembly breaking the contact between the rotor and the pickups, you might even be getting moisture or ice inside the rubber spark plug boots.

--The first thing you need to do is add a bottle of Drygas  or some similar product to your gas tank. This will take care of the blocked fuel lines and screens.

--The second thing to do is check all your wires ( plug and coil wires especially ) for cracks and dryness. If they don't provide a good seal because they are dried out ,then moisture can easily get between the contacts.

---If the backhoe still won't start try spraying some starting fluid into the carburetor.

 The hairdryer method will work too if you get the carb good and hot, and then take the distributor cap off and dry it out real well. Some people will tell you to spray the electrical components with WD40. This is a temporary solution at best and should only be used to troubleshoot a problem area. WD40 will actually attract dirt over time and create a bigger problem than the one you started with.

Good luck! ;D



Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 06:51:59 PM »
Quote
Also, I can't find Iso-heat listed at autozone or napa. Where do they sell it?
Are you talking about what we would call dry gas?

There are other brands that have isopropyl in them.
DryGas is another brand, and as I read it comes with either methanol or isopropyl.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline North River Energy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
  • Age: 52
  • Location: ME/NH
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 06:54:36 PM »
Considerations, in no particular order:

Oversize your battery cables.  I've used arc welding cable (1/0?) on at least one recalcitrant Vanagon diesel to great effect (cable run was at least 8 ft).

Verify your battery.  It may crank, but it may not have the zap for both crank and spark.
Note that cranking amps drop way off as the temp goes down.

Maybe check the voltage at the coil + while cranking?  Also try a direct feed from the battery to the coil +.  Could be marginal contacts in your go button/key switch?

Make sure your coil is in good order, and that it is the right coil for the tractor (internal v external ballast).  If you have a ballast resistor in line, try starting with that removed from the circuit.

Same with points and condensor.  Worth noting that the quality on these items 'new' has slipped drastically in recent years.  I tend to repurpose Bosch stuff from my pile of German and Swedish car parts.

On my old TD6, the points will sweat and gum up without fail in a matter of days if I do not cover the distributor.  And sometimes even then.

Also verify ignition timing.  Said TD6 will not even fire if the timing is off at all. To the extent that sometimes I have to twist the distributor while cranking to find the sweet spot. (Points are way easier to clean by pulling the whole thing).

I had both a radiator hose heater, and battery tender on my carbureted Toyota plow truck.  The trickle charger alone made a significant difference, as it kept the party going for the electrons.  Solar makes (or made) a compact unit that you can mount to the tractor.

Current plow truck has a 1500watt external tank heater.  Don't think that will work on the tractor without heater hoses, but if you can find a way to make it fit, They work well, and the motor starts happy.  If Case offers an actual block heater, then go that route.

Ensure that the choke is closing fully.  Especially if the engine is weak on compression.

Maybe check the intake manifold for cracks, and/or shrunken gaskets?

Good plugs? 

If it runs OK as soon as you get it going, without missing, skipping etc, I'd lean toward the electrical stuff.  Cold starting really highlights marginal operating parameters.  When you add the heat, you move everything closer to more ideal conditions, and that little bit can make all the difference.



Offline LAZERDAN

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Age: 55
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 09:14:51 PM »
I hate to be stupid here , But do you use starting fluid ( just a spritz when cranking) works great on older engines.  You must have good cranking speed thou. (normal)  Been using it everyday for thirty years and has nt let me down yet                             Lazerdan             Try Youtube    Now I have  to go see,   Never mind don't waste your time on youtube, no old timers sharing thier secrets    I will If you need help

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2013, 09:26:01 PM »
LD
What do you start with it?
Old? New?

And do you "spritz" it in the air intake or have a device attached for injecting a "spritz" ??
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline LAZERDAN

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Age: 55
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 09:44:15 PM »
BT  Just like thier are "50 ways to leave your Lover" There are many ways to start equipment with starting fluid.    Newer Tractors and crawlers Have a solinoid valve on the can and you push a button. ( I Do Not like this Method)   Almost always I crack the air cleaner a crack , crank and spritz. A spray is too much !     Right now a have a 8N ford as my Daily driver, By choice, not necessity.  To move the wood wagon and other equipment around.  It takes a while to get the hang of doing it daily.  Sometimes you only get 1 shot at the start If it's sub zero

Offline North River Energy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 846
  • Age: 52
  • Location: ME/NH
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2013, 10:15:58 PM »
^Have you converted the 8n to 12v?  If not, it's easy to do, and well worth it.



Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Having a real hard time starting my D34 on my LT40 in cold weather

Started by CalebL on Sawmills and Milling

47 Replies
5510 Views
Last post December 05, 2011, 09:18:29 PM
by woodmills1
xx
Cold weather starting

Started by concretecutter on Forestry and Logging

81 Replies
8525 Views
Last post January 23, 2016, 01:53:40 PM
by gspren
xx
cold weather skidder starting

Started by a old timberjack on Forestry and Logging

15 Replies
7203 Views
Last post March 26, 2008, 07:17:01 AM
by a old timberjack
xx
Detroit cold weather starting

Started by madmari on Forestry and Logging

58 Replies
15018 Views
Last post February 01, 2011, 07:56:11 PM
by Ed_K
 


Powered by EzPortal