The Forestry Forum

To date they have had almost 300 inquiries regarding this and the guy I just spoke with at WM said he is as eager to get the status on it as everyone else.
They are going to send out questionaires and maybe make phne calls etc. to select folks about their intended usage etc.
I hope it turns out to be as good as it sounds. Sawdust isn't hard to come by around here.
I wonder if the pulpwood market could get eclipsed by the sawdust market once enough of them are out in the field.
That sounds like a joke because the pulpwood market is so huge but what if this thing is so effecient that it rivals current home heating technology? I could see Sawdust Wagons replacing oil trucks in neighborhoods.  :o

It would help raise pulp prices if that turned out to be the case.

yeah but what would it do to lemonade and flounder. And the ozone.

I just don't see it getting all that big.
I can see folks that have easy access to sawdust jumping on the band wagon, but there are already uses for sawdust and I think it will just drive the cost of obtaining sawdust up.

Wasn't there a sawdust burner that you could make out of a couple of 55 gal oil drums?  I remember them back a number of years ago. 

We can't get enough sawdust arond here for bedding now. Some is alreading being burned to heat the mill buildings and such. Unalam is burning their own shavings to heat the plant.
  Dust from small bandsaws is not very good for bedding as it is too fine, so a burner will be a good use for that.

I'm curious how they intend to keep fresh, wet, sawdust from freezing up before burning. I would think it would be an issue for us potential northern customers.

I am one of those that are waiting to hear details.  I would love to set one next to the Taylor that heats the house, hot water, and kiln. 

I don't have alot of problems with sawdust freezing.  My guess is that some of the moisture is removed in the blower system,  either that or it is quick frozen and stays that way????   I already collect my sawdust in a gravity bed wagon,  some goes to horse people, alot just goes to the burn pile or on trails in the woods. 

waiting patiently..................sortof..........

I don't mean to hijack the thread, I'm anxious to hear about the WM burner too, but there is a sawdust burner on the market now for those who can't wait. It plugs into existing boilers. The one I saw referenced some years back was attached to a Taylor Outdoor boiler.
http://www.burnchips.com/dragon.html

I see a big chipper feeding a large hopper eating all those pesky slabs coming off the mill. I could sell all my firewood to pay for it all. Have any idea what that auger system sells for? Joe

i just got a email from burnchips.the dragon is no longer made or sold.he didn,t tell me why..to bad it looked just like something i needed.
i wonder if a guy could make his own?? it don,t really look like it would be hard to do.
  i,de like to build my own outdoor wood boiler and have it built right from the start with that dragon style hopper as part of it.

delbert

I too am anxious to hear more about the WM sawdust burner.  Price and payback will be the big deciding factors for a lot of people.

woodmizer called me yesterday about the saw dust burners .they are getting info from potential costumers on what they will be heating: buildings, kilns etc. They said looks like they have 4 sizes available. I told them that I was concerned about frozen sawdust they said they only thing they are concerned about is the sawdust freezing in the auger. Sounds like they have a couple of different ways to combat that problem. It's gonna depend on your location. Only the largest size is gonna be able to burn sawdust, corn, pellets, wood chips, this unit is 1.5 million  BTU. The smaller units will only burn the powder dust so if I want to burn my slab wood it has to be ground into a fine dust like a bandsaw produces. These will be duel fuel units. The ignition system will be propane fired for 5-10 minutes then the sawdust will be a perpetual burn.  If you wanna leave the house for a weekend it has the propane burner is just as many BTU output as the sawdust burner itself so it can switch to propane if you are gone. They are also looking at generating small amounts of electricty with these units.  Hope I got the information right this is as close as I can remember.

Are the WM units heating air like a forced air furnace or heating water like an outdoor boiler?

wood-mizer will be having a small scale sawdust burner with them for there 25th anniversary tour  ;)

I visited a sawmill this summer that had their own sawdust burning boiler/generator. 160KW generator that burned only sawdust, the larger stuff shook out to be ground up or sold. The whole setup was in it's own building and computer controlled. As big as it was, I assumed they needed a dedicated operator, but the boss only checked on it a couple times a day. They said it paid for itself in nothing flat, still didn't cover all their power requirements and they were looking to put in a bigger one. The only problem they had was their former customers were upset they weren't getting the sawdust anymore.

The surprising thing to me was how little sawdust it seemed to be burning. I figured the conveyor feed would be running continuously, but it started up and ran for a couple minutes and then would shut down for about 5 minutes. Might have been burning a couple of buckets of sawdust every ten minutes.

Riles,

You do not happen to remember who made the system do you?  Sounds like a neat setup, heat and electricity too.

Farmerdoug

Quote from: twobears on January 24, 2007, 09:06:24 AM
the dragon is no longer made or sold.

Oops, sorry about the bum steer.

If they are not selling it anymore you think they would update their website.  ::) I was looking at that too. :(

Farmerdoug

Farmerdoug, I don't remember the name, but it was industrial sized, not what you would expect to see on your typical farm. The firebox alone was probably 8 x 8 and the building the whole thing was in might have been 30 x 30.

Now that would be fun to check out. 8)

Woodmizer said today that their largest sawdust burner will be about 1 million BTUs.  It will burn any biomass like corn, small chips, sawdust, cardboard, hay, cornstalks even food waste.  They are working on a second phase that involves the processing of the biomass to burner size ie. a grinder of some kind too.  The thrid phase will be a generator.

The boiler is planned to be coming out this fall.  They will be sending a brochure out in about three weeks to people that have shown interest in the boiler.

Farmerdoug

Doug,

We had a similar conversation with Scott Laskowski a couple days ago. After the phone call, Linda and I were talking about the 1 million BTU burner. Here in Iowa, the DNR regulates all wood burners 1 million BTU's and bigger. However, Wisconsin does not start regulating until 5 million. So, it looks like each state law will have to be looked at. In Iowa an owner will have to obtain a permit and pay a fee to make a million BTU per hour.
Permits take a considerable amount of time to research and file. >:(
Did we mention a considerable amount of time. :o
That's a considerable amount of time for each permit  :-X

Now, there is a quick fix to this little problem. Reduce the sawdust auger RPM by 1%. WaLa 990,000 BTU's.
Add a label to the machine and avoid dealing with the government.

Or just build a 1.5 million and figure that any company big enough to use that many BTU's is already being visited by the DNR for water shed permits, storm water containment, fugitive dust permits, recycling programs, chemical spill plan, it goes on and on.

We did sent Scott Laskowski an Email in regard to Iowa DNR rules. He replied very quickly that he would be researching this issue further.  Wood Mizer has a lot riding on this project, and we are confident that they will develop and build a safe and efficient burner.

We have our name on the "I'll take one" list ;D

ElectricAl and Linda

I defintly am interested in one too.  It just depends on the final price of it though.  I currently have the CB's largest outdoor boiler just under the pallet burner.  I love it but with each additional greenhouses it is losing the capacity to keep up with heat so instead of another CB I am thinking Woodmizer.  That would allow a whole different heat source material if  you know what I mean.  CB's do not burn cardboard and sawdust very good.

Farmerdoug

I gave a brief overview to a local tree service owner who wants to burn the chips he makes. He'll need the pulverizer that WM will make available during phase 2.

I kinda hope phase 2 happens quick because we'll use one for the trash under the sawmill.

Depending on what size unit you are getting I am sure you can get a hammermill that will size it to your needs.  They are available for just about anything.

Farmerdoug

Will the smaller units be the same as your normal pellet stoves?  Just burn loose sawdust instead of compressed?  Has anyone heard any prices mentioned?

Hasn't someone on here showed plans for a sawdust burner before using forced air to stir up the dust and cause it to burn hot?

I am getting ready to build one that fits inside my taylor, just need to find a good variable speed feed so I can experiment with different feed rates, anyone have a burned out pellet stove they want to get rid of??

Quote from: Riles on January 24, 2007, 09:06:26 PM
I visited a sawmill this summer that had their own sawdust burning boiler/generator. 160KW generator that burned only sawdust,

Did you notice if they had to dry the sawdust first or could they use it straight from the mill?

The sawdust, splinters, chips, stray bark, etc all moved by conveyor systems. Normally it fell into trailers and was sold to the OSB mill or the particleboard plant. Instead they sorted the bigger stuff out and dumped it into a pile in an open sided building and augured it into the boiler room. From the augur it fell onto a shaker conveyor which sorted out the sawdust that went into the boiler. The larger stuff went back around. I was told they could grind it, but had the impression they didn't do it because they didn't need to.

So to answer your question, no, they do not specifically dry it, although it's handled quite a bit and that may have some affect. The boiler did have forced air into the firebox but I don't think it was a "fluidized bed."

Here is a little more information.

Bio-Mizer Biodust Burner

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/Madisonvth%92e%20KY%2042431.JPG)

Pictured is the Domestic 150,000 btu/hr

*Can burn any suspended bio-dust
*Computer controlled with push button simplicity
*Fuel bin holds up to 3 day fuel supply
*Integrated fuel delivery system
*No clinkers (WM sawdust )
*Super clean emissions
*Hydronic heat system
*Air-to-air heat system
*Minimal ash buildup ( WM sawdust )
*Auto ash removal
*Environmentally friendly
*Doesn't "turn down" and smoke like stick burners do.
  This machine turns off when not needed, and reignites in seconds
  with the back up fuel system. Hot ignition virtually eliminates smoke on startup.




It is possible that the design of the Bio-Mizer may change some before it is for sale to the public.  But this gives every one a product update.

Al,  I see you received the mailing from Woodmizer too.

Farmerdoug

Any ballpark costs?

Found a related link:

http://www.stirlingengines.org.uk/manufact/manf/usa/new6.html

Link (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=1129.msg15193#msg15193)

I had remembered this old post by Bibbyman and I made a lot of inquiries including Woodmiser,who informed me it was Don Laskowski's pet project.I e-mailed him and asked if there was any more development and I received from him(Don Laskowski) a very curt reply that he had no more involvement with the project.

It left me disatisfied with the lack of answers and I still would like to know what problems the Stirling had,was it a lame Duck or were there politics that ended the project. :-\

Doug,

We got it on Monday ;)



Riles and Paul,

Sunpower and Woodmizer have split up to put it nicely :-X

WM is working on a new system for the Bio-Mizer co gen. I have been told it's better technology than the Stirling engine :o

The Bio-Mizer web site is up.  Don't tell much we don't already know but if you're interested in keeping track of the developments, it'd be a site to mark in your favorites.

Bio-Mizer (http://www.biomizer.com/)

Anybody hear any price/availability details?

I thought I had a card from the guy who was at Perkinston with the Bio-Mizer, can't seem to find it.  I think he told me it would be in the $6,000 range, not sure but my feeble memory came up with that number from somewhere.  He did not give me a date of availability.

Hello to all,

Bioman is the new representative for Wood-Mizer.  We thought we'd jump in here to help answer questions related to the sawdust burner we are working on.   We're not here to sell (can't because it isn't ready yet). 

Since this is a forum, we thought this would be a great chance to hear from others on the realities and potential of the ways we can utilize biomass in a dust form.  We believe BioDust has the potential to become that 'new fuel' we've been looking for to make a dent in our dependency on oil on a global level. (There's nothing wrong with thinking 'big' is there?)  :)  I think you'll see what we mean as this thread progresses.....

Welcome to the Forum Bioman!

I think you're going to get a lot of questions and suggestions.

WELCOME BIOMAN:i,am very intrested in all this as i,am sure many others are.

   delbert

To those who have researched sawdust burners I'd like to summarize what we've found and then respond to rebuttals.  Maybe we've missed something in our studies of the technology.

When you find a machine that burns sawdust it is typically large and expensive.  It also requires the dust to be relatively dry.  Sawdust will not be the best fuel for the unit - the unit is typically optimized for chips or some larger configuration.

Burn back, clinkers and host of other issues plague current technology when it comes to burning dust.

Most small scale versions simply don't work well or not at all.  If they can burn dust, it is not the optimal fuel. 

You can find drum or bucket smoker style burners but they are not going to solve the heating needs of a typical home today.  They smoke a lot.

There has been a lot of research done on developing small scale dust burners in all corners of the world - to date, we haven't seen or heard of a viable small scale unit that works well and/or falls in a decent price range.

If you do find a sawdust burner, almost without exception the sawdust has to be dry.  Wet sawdust is by nature hard to burn and smokes a lot.

All things considered ,if there was an answer to the list above, wouldn't the product already be on the market and obvious to us all?

Sounds good to me, Bioman. Now when talking of sawdust to burn, and BioDust, how similar are they, and what would be good definitions to separate them? 

BioDust
Moisture content? 
particle size?
Screening necessary?
hammermilling necessary?
drying necessary? 

Bio-Dust is simply any form of biomass in a suspendable dust form. 

For sake of grounding future discussions on Bio-Dust burning it is important to agree on one factor; generically speaking biomass has a heat value of approx 8500 BTU's per pound (dry).  That means it doesn't matter if it is wood, corn, grain etc, they all have roughly the same heat value per pound of dry weight.  The primary difference between fuels is moisture content, ash content, density and how it can be handled.

The reason we are chasing the Bio-Dust form of fuel is because most forms of biomass can be turned into a 'dust' configuration with relative ease (someone already mentioned hammermills).  Also, we have a huge customer base wondering how to either get rid of the dust created by their wood processing equipment, or even better - use it for profit somehow.

Now that we know how to handle and burn Bio-Dust effectively and with relative ease (even wet), it's simply a question of which fuels are most readily available.  Certainly the sawdust created by bandmills (and circle mills) is significant in the beginning.

Here's a thought starter for you.  Why do we burn the corn kernel that has most of the cost associated with growing it and has multiple other uses when we can burn the cob in dust form instead and get the same BTU/lb?   Today the answer is 'because there isn't a good way to burn cobs.'  What if farmers had an opportunity to grind cobs and sell dust (that is already dry) at a price that would rival corn?  My guess is there is an industry waiting to be born with this one crop alone....

What currently happens to the corn cob?

Field corn cob is thrown back onto the ground to rot.  Popcorn manufacturers have mountains of it with little market to move them.

Not in the fields I've been in.

Sorry beenthere, I see I didn't fully answer your questions.

The industrial burner burns dust directly from our sawmill operation - moisture is typically around 60%.  Tghe domestic unit works best with dry fuel (30% or less).  It can burn wet but it isn't very efficient.  In any case - energy is required to drive off the moisture before the wood fiber can burn - so the dryer the better.

We don't screen our fuel on the industrial unit but probably should - the auger we use can hang up on large pieces of bark or metal parts that find their way into the conveyor system.

When we screen for the smaller unit we're using a mesh with approx 5/16 holes in it.  The auger is much smaller on the domestic unit so some care must be taken.

Hammermilling of other fuels like corncob will be necessary - bedding purchased at the farm store is too course.  This is one area we will be working on - we'll need a reasonably priced hammermill for this market

Moisture

Furby, what type of corn were they growing?

Field corn.
I assume the cobs were being ground and spit out with the corn, as they sure aren't left in the fields around here.
A few here and there are always laying around, but not that many.

I think you are right Furby, that the cobs are ground somewhat in the process of removing the corn kernels. But the cobs in various forms are left in the fields - using the modern day combines. 

Years ago, we picked whole ears, stored them in cribs, and then would have a sheller come in and shell the corn, leaving corn kernels and big piles of cobs. These cobs made good fuel for heaters. Burned a many of them to heat water before taking a bath. But the density isn't so great, like wood. So a pound of cobs would be more volume compared to a pound of sawdust.

Green sawdust would give fewer BTU's I suspect, just as green firewood gives fewer BTU's. Seems if a sawdust burner would burn green sawdust, then a sawdust drying step could be saved - as the green sawdust would 'dry' so-to-speak, as it is being burned. Hopefully a net gain in energy would result.

What I've seen is simply fields with nothing but stuble.
The corn, cobs, and stalks are all gone.
Being ground and left in the field is possible, but I didn't see much if any grindings.
There is a large amount of "dust" blowing away as the corn is thrown into a trailer though.
I do remember reading how some farmers were using it all in the feed.
I guess I'm wondering if there would be a lot of extra work seperating and collecting the cob and stalk remains in order to burn them and wether it would be a negative from the feed side of things if that's what is curently being done.

Some farmers chop the green corn, and put in bunks or the silo. Then nothing is left but the stubble. If combined, then they take the corn kernels, and leave the stalk, cobs, etc. Often our farmers will then chop the field, and bale the stalks or pack them in stacks for bedding if there are good drying days and baling days. After bedding then the farmer hauls it back out on the fields and spreds it, to start the process all over again.  :)

Bioman,

I am wondering if the biomizer has a problem with bridging in the feed hopper when using green sawdust, and how that problem is eliminated? 

I really hate to have to wait til October ( I am signed up for the Indy show) to see how it all works.  How soon can we see some cut-away drawings and marvel at the engineering that has gone into it? 

I admit my curiosity has quite a bit to do with my project of building a cyclone dust burner to fit inside my Taylor woodstove, and like any good shadetree mechanic, I wish to learn from others experimentation.

We have the bridging problem worked out in most cases.  One of the reasons we say the unit isn't ready is because we haven't been through cold season testing to our satisfaction.  We think we have the freezing problems worked out, but we simply ran out of cold weather before we finished testing and we have to go north to test ASAP later this year.

For obvious reasons we're holding the technology side of things to ourselves.  We have to finish protecting the product as well as refine the design and controls.  I can say it is both complex and simple at the same time.

Back to the term BioDust---

Here are a few reasons why converting to BioDust is advantageous.

First, grinding biomass to dust removes voids in the material.  Example - common thought is that corn cob is too light and bulky - reality is that when ground to dust it is similar and possibly more dense than dry sawdust.

Second, biomass in dust form dries easily.  Bagged sawdust will dry on its own in about 4-6 weeks. 

Third, biomass in dust form is a consitent configuration.  If the dust is consistent, than one feed system works across multiple fuels. 

I'm hitting the road for burner demonstration tomorrow out in NM.  Later guys.

Quote from: Bioman on March 08, 2007, 02:47:03 PMAll things considered ,if there was an answer to the list above, wouldn't the product already be on the market and obvious to us all?

Yes. And you're saying your unit solves these hurdles but other issues ar preventing it from coming online, or you haven't quite solved these age-old problems yet?

We were curious what saw dust weighted per cubic foot.  So Monday we scoop up some pretty clean dust off the floor. It had sat over the weekend on our radiant heated floor. It weighted 12 lbs per cubic foot.
Then we sawed a fresh cut 20" white oak. A sample was taken during a 13" wide cut to get as much heart wood. It weighted 17.5 lbs per cubic foot.

Quite a difference. This difference will effect the actual BTU output.  Just something to consider when trying to size your new BioMizer.  We'll  have to see what kind of efficiency rating WM sets for different moisture content products.

I bet the BTU diff will be noticeable but negligble.

BTU difference will be tied closely to the moisture content of the material, I'd bet. No different from burning firewood. BTU output is very noticeable when I go between wet wood (split one year) and dry wood (split two or three years). Learned that all over again last week when I thought some hickory and dead oak would be burnable (oh yeah, it'll burn, but little added heat value). Yesterday, bucked through the snow and brought in a load of two-yer split red oak......ahhh heat again.

Electric Al
Having sawdust spread out on radiant heated floor prolly dries it pretty fast. Do you think that moisture was the main difference between the 12 and 17 #, or were they different species sawdust as well?

You may be right I am shooting from the hip, but I think sawdust emptied into a hot furnace will lose its moisture content rapidly (especially if there is some type of agitator involved). Firewood is dense and sawdust is a loose material by comparison.

The energy to convert water to steam is the same, with both.  ;D

maybe not.

Beenthere,

I'm sure "moisture" is the key to the 5.5 lb difference.  Over the weekend I will try to do an Oven Dry test on some saw dust to see what the real moisture content is.

Remember our previous weigh off was fresh cut green White Oak @ 17.5lb and partly dried White Oak off the heated floor @ 12lb.
Today's sample was fresh cut green Soft Maple, @ 19lbs. per cubic foot.
DanG we're putting on the weight.  :o

Kevjay,

Predrying the dust would be nice but it would add extra cost in equipment and electricity.
Our dust does dry some as it is blown 120' to a sawdust bunker. The dust is quite warm coming off the sawmill, but is cool at the discharge point. Maybe that would be another test we should try.
I think a bigger concern for us is freezing. Maybe a heated hopper.

The proposed hopper for the 150k unit is around 5' in diameter at the top and about 5' tall. It will hold 3 cubic yards plus or minus some.   The 3 cubic yards is designed to last approximately 3 full days at full power output.

The industrial unit will be  1 million BTU per hour. It will have a different feed system. One style being looked at is an auger with sweep on it. The unit can be raised up so feed stock can be added with a loader. (tractor, skidsteer,  wife with shovel) then the auger and sweep is lowered on to the pile. This unit will consume + - 6 cubic yards every 24 hours. That's 2900 lbs @ 18lb/ cuft.  Which brings up another cost savings benefit of a BioMizer. Who needs a local gym membership if you have a nice big shovel. ;D   

These are just rough numbers and your results may differ ;)

I realize they are still engineering these units, but does anyone have any idea when the are projecting release? Before next winter or beyond???

Stumpy,

As of now they are looking at releasing the boilers in the fall.  But only time will tell.

Farmerdoug

Moisture content -

It takes 1 BTU to raise 1 gallon of water 1 degree up to boiling point
It takes almost 1000 BTUs to raise the water the final degree to convert to steam
One gallon of water weighs 8.33 lbs.

If the moisture content of your sawdust is 60% and you start out with 75 lbs of fuel, approx 6.7 pounds of the wet fuel is used to drive the moisture out of the fuel before it can burn.  That is almost 9% of the wet fuel consumed just to evaporate the water.  The endothermic reaction due to evaporation reduces the temperature in the combustion chamber.  The net result is the fire is not as hot and you will use more fuel to get the same heat.

We can burn wet sawdust.  We prefer burning 30% or less in the small unit.  If we burn wet fuel (60%) in the small unit we have to run it full speed to keep up with the endothermic reaction.  We routinely burn wet dust directly from the sawmill operation (in the 60% range) in the industrial unit.  The large unit has plenty of heat reserve to overcome the endothermic reaction.

In summary - burning wet dust vs dry is significantly different.  The dryer the better.  It's a question of efficiency and your ability to reach higher combustion temps.

Kevjay

Yes we have them worked out.  As stated earlier we have a little more cold weather testing to do, but we don't forsee any show stoppers.  We were running at 5 degrees with wet dust in KY earlier this year.

The delay in releasing the product is related to manufacturing engineering and computer control development.  We won't release until the product is ready to our satisfaction. 

This summer will be consumed with pilot testing in different markets and locations all over the country.  We will also be refining the design to drive the cost down so we can pass those savings on the end user. :)

I'm sitting in Albuquerque waiting to come home after another day of demonstation of the unit.  Everytime we demo the machine I get more excited about the its potential.  We were scooping fuel off the ground from a douglas fir milling operation.  The owner of the building spends $1700/month on propane to heat to small kilns.  The small unit would handle these and more running on idle while using the fuel he can't get rid of any other way.

Quote from: Bioman on March 11, 2007, 09:38:56 AM
It takes 1 BTU to raise 1 gallon of water 1 degree up to boiling point

Almost... It takes 1 BTU to raise 1 pound of water 1 degree F.

Love to hear more about the cogeneration unit.

oops - thanks for the catch.  The calculations were made by the pound and not the gallon

Bioman, what is the largest particulate size the burners will handle?  Any difference between the two.  Will shavings from planers and milling machines need to be ground into dust?

We haven't 'graded' the fuel yet for a particular size. 

The wet fuel we use in the large machine travels down a vibrating conveyor and then through a section with 3/4" holes in it.  We've been screening with 1/4" square mesh for use with the smaller machine. 

We don't need the fuel to be fine like wood flour.  Relatively speaking it can be much more course.  The fuel we burn routinely has small mulch sized pieces in it.

We used material from a molder operation at the show this weekend.  The fuel was 20% MC or less and worked beautifully.  We didn't have any of the fluffy planer shavings to work with.  I'm sure we would have to break down the bigger shavings made by planers with long knives.  The lack of density of the fluffy planer shavings would reduce the rate at which the fuel enters the combustion chamber.  We need relative consistency of fuel to maintain control.  Chips made by a planer with sectional carbide inserts would be fine.

Burning dried dust from a planer with spiral head sounds good.  Any idea what burner I would need and how much sawdust per day would be needed for a 4800 square foot shop with radiant floor heat?  Southern IN climate and insulated shop. I realize there are a lot of variables, just looking for a range or general idea.

I believe you would get by fine with the small unit.

Peakebrook,

Don't have much to say about cogen yet....other than we'll be working on it more later this year.

Bioman, I am very interested in the smaller units to heat shop and a kiln.  I have a vermeeer chipper that I use to chip tops and some slabs.  Can the unit burn "chips" from a wood chipper or would that be too big?   

Woodhick,

Chips are too big.  The fuel has to be suspendable in or pushed by an air stream.  We're going to build a very small hammermill for people like you that need to break chips into dust.

I'm excited about it and I would not even be considered an ideal candidate considering my climate and the tinyness of my operation!
Maybe I would need to be one of the test areas of the country in order to gauge the effectiveness in less than Arctic climates. I did start the thread that should be worth something! ???  :D

Kevjay,

What is your operation like?  Do you run a sawmill?

Yes, I am on the cusp of becoming a major national player. :D

Actually I just recently bought a used LT40HDD42 and am going to be selling to the public this spring for the first time. We will have a condensation kiln running this year and have all the parts except a way to burn our slabs for the heat ;) Seriously we have the huge cooling tower, kiln chamber (currently dissassembled to relocate it but it assembles in half a day), and all the other mechanical control and flow devices but and were looking to make a decision on a wood fired boiler when I stumbled on the article on nthe sawdust burner in Woodmizer Way.
That's why I am so excited about it. It would seem an excellent choice to run our condensation kiln, heat the shop and heat the house.

i sure hope this all works out.i,ve been making plans for years on my business,ect and one thing i,ve thought about alot is a good way to get rid of my waste wood.i figured that some type of wood chip or sawdust burnner would be the ticket.i,de get rid of my waste and keep the heating bill down to heat my house,shop and kiln.
i,ll be sitting here watching all this closely.if you guys can make it work right and build a good product that is reasonable in price for what it is i want one for sure.

delbert

The piece we haven't figured out is how to convert slabs into dust with a machine that is affordable to buy/run.  This discussion happens at every demonstration of the burner - 'how do we get rid of slabs' is always asked. 

There is a big business waiting to happen for any of you who figures out how to do it.  Let us know if you figure it out and we'll work with you.  I know I'm still pondering it.....

If woodmizer is going to come up with a small hammermill to reduce chips then I think the easiest way to get rid of slabs is to chip them in a chipper.   I know that would be handling the material a couple of times( slabs to chipper-chips to hammer mill- dust to burner).  If someone didn't produce a lot of slabe they could rent a chipper for a day or two to reduce the slabs.   

yep,i think a small wood chipper will have to be used then a hammer mill.i think that would be the best way.maybe,the chipper could be setup to blow it,s chips right into a hammer mill??

delbert

We have a Valby 231 chipper that blows the chips into a Schutte hammermill for mulch. The chipper can be set for 1/4" chips but it chips very slow at that setting. We have it set at 1" to regrind for mulch. Sawdust sized material from slabs would take a long time to grind. Our screen in the hammermill has 1" square holes. It makes nice mulch but it is much more coarse than sawdust. The chipper can chip alot faster than the hammermill can regrind the material. Also it takes a good bit of power to run it. We have stalled a 671 Detroit a few times!

I wonder what the minimum HP requirements of a Valby 260 would be when run at the 1/4" chip setting with gravity feed.  I know that Valby says 40 HP for the OEM version, but I am thinking that the smaller chip and slower feed would not require so much HP.  The 1/4" chip should grind in a hammermill alot easier than a big chip.  even though it is slow, if it was an economical electric motor, it should be more than fast enough to handle a band mill output.

I am just thinking out loud, anyone have any more information or ideas!!!

I had run a smaller Valby with an 8n Ford tractor. It was OK but could have used more power. The 1/4" chip will chip easier, but the hammer mill will need a screen with very small holes. If we put small chips through our Schutte, they come out as chips. The screen sizes the material. To get sawdust sized material from a hammer mill the screen would probably need 1/2" holes. That would realy slow down the production rate. If you want to make small material a wood hog or grinder with the correct sized screen would do the job without a chipper.

didn,t one or two of the bandsaw mill companys make some sort of slab grinder at one time?? it seems to me they did.i just can,t remember which one or ones..maybe,hud-son was one of them?

delbert

Yes, Hudson's made a slab grinder.  Not sure if they still do or not though.

Farmerdoug

Delbert,

Doug is remembering correctly ;) 

Hud-Son did sell a slab grinder a few years ago.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/Hud-Son%20Grinder.JPG)

It was priced at $10,995 at the time.  When I got the information the price was a little too high for us. After a couple of years of hiring portable grinders to make our mulch we started looking around again. I called a year or so ago and was told the machine did not sell good enough to keep in production :-[.

Another machine we really liked is the Challenger CH100 Horizonal Grinder.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/Challenger%20Grinder.JPG)

It has a 20hp 3ph (15hp 3ph option ) infeed is 3.5" x 13"

Basic machine is close to $20,000.


I think a slow speed high torque grinder with a 3/16 screen could reduce slabs to a product suitable for the Bio-Mizer.

If your business plan includes mulch sales, a 1" baffle screen and a sifter to separate the fines would be just the ticket ;)
If a dual product is produced a much higher production rate could be achieved.

AL:thanks for posting that.i think hud-son copyed the idea for that grinder from  another sawmill maker,i can,t remember which one tho. your right they wanted way to much money for it.


delbert

Bioman

There is much similiar work going on right now for biorefinerys and cellulosic ethanol. I just read an interesting update in the Des Moines Register this Sunday. They have a new website you can access for the current information on this topic at :desmoinesregister.com/biofuels (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=biofuels)

They are working on a way to collect and use corn cobs and corn stover to produce ethanol. John Deere has made a experimental combine to catch the cobs and stover to be used in producing ethanol. After they break down the cellulose for alcohol production, they will use the lignin remaining for fuel to run the process. One of the many problems they are facing is the collection of quantities of corn stover to run a plant. The example they give is that to run a typical 60 million gallon a year plant it would take 30,000 truck loads of stover, the equivalent of covering 100 football fields to a height of 25 feet. Plus, removing that much biomass will deplete the soil fertility.

It may just be that it takes too much energy to reduce slabs to dust without chemical means. If you cannot find a way to make dust out of slabs, just accept it as a sawdust burner and not hold up the introduction trying to solve that problem. Just a suggestion.  ;D

Gary_C

Thanks for the link.  We're adding it to our data mining site for info purposes.  We've been wondering if anyone was working on the technology to collect cobs and stover.

Our focus is on creating an inexpensive heat source that will offset the need for industrial and domestic BTU requirements that are currently supplied by the petroleum industry.  Even the bio-refinerys need cheap heat.  And of course the cogen project represents the greatest boon if we can pull it off.

The slab issue is the hot item of discussion at all of the shows I've been attending.  Most of our customers have slash piles they don't know how to get rid of, and no way to economically reduce them to chips/dust.  The typical operation of a WM owner doesn't produce enough product to justify an expensive grinder or chipper - thus the heavy discussion to solve the problem.

We used to own a Challenger grinder and found it to be adequate for a small industrial sawmill, but not cheap to run or maintain.  The little challenger units do really well with edgings.  The larger unit we had simply couldn't handle butt slabs very well.  We then went to a Roto-Chopper (makes mulch) and now we're back to a Precision chipper and producing product for the paper industry.

The market we're talking about developing here is similar to the sawmill market we've been building for 25 years.  Cumulatively, the bandmill market with 40,000 mills in the field has a production capacity that easily rivals the cumulative capacity of the 'big' mills.  This happened by spreading out production amongst a high volume of small producers. 

If we were to come up with new grinder technology that is specifically designed to produce dust from biomass on a small scale and spread the equipment out to multiple small users where the burners/cogen units are, what will this market look like in another 25 years?

Is it possible that a grinder, made to work like a Stump Grinder, would reduce slabs to usable shreds??  I am impressed with how fast a Grinder can cut stumps down, and the dust is fairly fine. They use 3 cyl diesels and 4 cyl Wisconsins, the ones that I've seen ??

The challenger grinder we used to have worked very much like a stump grinder.   We had a log of problems when grinding bigger pieces becuase the slab would get stuck in a 'rut'.  The slab would get large grooves cut in the end of it and then it wouldn't feed any more.  If the head would have traversed slightly back and forth to break up the angle of attack like a stump grinder does maybe it would have worked.

Maybe the clamp holding the slab, rotating in a slightly oval pattern would be easier to design and build than it would be to do that with the grinder head. The one that just popped into my little brain seems like it would be easy to make.

The chips from insert planer heads are small and very easy to move with an air stream,  might even be usable as they are.

What about a disc type grinder with something like inserts in it, to take small manageable bites?  They could be in a spiral pattern on the disc so you are only powering a couple inserts at any one time thru the slab.  There could be two or four sets of inserts that are offset from each other.   

The slab could be fed in at an angle to the disc so the inserts are peeling off the slab at a 45 degree angle so you are not trying to peel end grain.  Seems like that would not take as much power. 

If this could be powered with a 20 - 30 hp diesel, it might be economical enough to let run thru the day and let the slabs and edgings feed in by gravity as they are made.

I like that idea.

BBtom,

Interesting - we've been discussing a similar approach.  We've toyed with the idea of using coiled blade stock as the disc you describe.  It would work more like a cheese grater.  Since we make our own blades this technology would be easy for us.  We've also wondered how versatile it would be.  It may be able to do anything from paper to slabs.

How would sharpness be maintained with the blade stock?  Carbide inserts can chew thru bark for a long time without dulling, and when they do dull, are relatively easy to turn or replace.

Also wonder how you would control the feed rate so that a relatively small engine could handle the load without resorting to an expensive feeding system,  the inserts could be mounted to take only a 1/16" bite ( as an example) and that would control (to some extent) the power needs and feed rate, and at the same time control the thickness of the chip.

I realize that the blade stock would output exactly what is needed in final product, which is very desirable.  Has any testing been done with planer chips from a Byrd shelix or similar head?

The blade stock would be easily resharpenable.  There would be so many individual teeth in a coil like that I suspect it would last a very long time.  We have nationwide sharpening services that could easily sharpen a coil (multiple times), just like we do blades for the mills.

Feed rate may be self regulating based on tooth configuration, anvil setting and hopper size.  This hasn't been tried yet, so I don't have qualified answers for you.  It may not work at all.

We have burned shavings from a commercial molder operation.  Small mulch sized particles mixed with dust burn very well.  We wouldn't want to burn mulch only.

Bioman,  got any ballpark ideas on what power requirements you are looking at?  I know how difficult it is to get true 3 phase around here, and 200 amp service is the norm for single phase.  That is why I was thinking small diesel power.  I have over 3000 hours on my LT40HDD42 Kubota and it acts like it is just getting broke in good.

What cost would there be in a blade coil,  would the shipping and resharp costs be high? 

Carbide inserts like on the Shelix are about $3- $4 each and have 4 cutting faces, but I think it would require 150 or 200 of them.

I need to get busy and see if I can build a test unit.  I have an old 18 HP Kubota engine that needs injectors and pump, If I can run it with that, it would be cheap enough to let run all day and chew away while I am sawing.

Our first attempt will be to size one under 10hp because of the single phase limitation.  Beyond that we can look at 3 phase/diesel/gas/pto.  If we are talking about distributing slash piles to small users, the grinder doesn't need to produce huge amounts of dust/hr.

We only started discussing the options this weekend after the last show.  Again, we had a lot of people asking for a solution to small scale slash pile grinding - it's a big challenge.

I don't know how long the coil will have to be, but sharpening is fully automated and relatively inexpensive I think.  We would only have to punch and harden the stock on the first pass.  If we don't have to grind, set, cut and weld as individuals, cost per foot goes way down.

Let us know if you come up with something.  We're still busy on the burner itself and will be for several months.  In the mean time we're going to be testing small scale versions of several existing technologies before we start into another development project of our own.

BioMan,

What size of Challenger grinder did you have? Also, did it have power feed?

I saw a 5 hp single phase pulverizer with top feed years ago. I really did not pay too much attention to it at the time.

There is a used one for sale in Minnesota from TMS.

It was at least 100 hp, and yes it was power fed.  The only real issue we had with it was the butt slabs.  We ended up having to make extra cuts on the mill to make smaller slabs and even then we had to pull some out of the trough.

We need a machine that will pulverize big slabs slowly into dust with small hp - no problem, huh?

QuoteWe need a machine that will pulverize big slabs slowly into dust with small hp - no problem, huh?

That should not be a big issue for the Super Hero BioMan

 8)

I'm off early in the AM to another burner demo in Portland OR this weekend.  If any of you guys live near the airport, that's we're we will be with the unit and you are welcome to come check it out.  Next stop after that will be outside of Wausau, WI in two weeks where we're expecting about 700 customers - many of which are coming just to check out the burner(s).  We are going to take two units to the show - one of which will have both air-to-air and hydronic heat exchangers for demo purposes.  Stop by if you can.  The show schedule is posted on the Wood-Mizer site.  Let me know if you are coming just to see the burner and I'll see if I can get a waiver on the registration fee.

Here it is March 30 at 11 pm and I just found out about the show in Portland.  Boy am I going to have to have a talk with Ken.  Just cause I sold my mill doesn't mean I don't want to know about the shows.

I am heating my 3500 sq ft home with an outside woodstove and radient heat. 

One of my cutting customers was very interested in building a stove that would handle wood waste from chipper size to sawdust.  We brainstormed this several times.  He wanted to be able to load with a small front end loader into a hopper with an auger system so that it would last several days.

Forty years ago my folks heated their home with a sawdust burner in the basement.  It had a hopper that Dad filled in the morning and at night.  It was a hopper that gravity fed into the burner.  We had a large shed and he bought fresh cut fir sawdust by the truck load.  It was blown in the basement and the rest went in the shed.  I remember that we did have to remove the clinker every so often.

My stove is a Heat Source.  It has a grate in the middle so ashes can be removed with an auger.  I have burnt some sawdust in the stove just to see if I could do it.  I got some feed baqs and some old onion bags and filled them with wet sawdust, floor sweeping and small pieces of wood from my radial arm saw.   I put the whole bag in the stove on the sides.  The bag burns and the outside of the sawdust burns then sluffs off and continue to dry and burn everything I put it there.  Nothing left but fine ash.

My first two years of using the stove I burnt scrap wood from the house and slabs from the sawmill.  If it fit in the door it was burnt and the stove did't care how ugly the wood was.  I sold my mill to my neighbor so I still will be burning a lot of  slab wood.   I also help out at a local family owned Oregon Oak sawmill and take my pay in slab wood.

I will be following what WM comes up with as this would be a natural use for home heating, shop and kiln heating.

Loren 

Loren,


Sorry we missed you.  If you know any of the local customers who may have been there you can follow up with them on the demonstration.  There were about 250 people as this tour stop.  As usual there was a lot of interest and the machine worked well.  We burned dry hardwood dust and wet pine dust from the sawmill demos this time around.  Also, we left the first prototype with the Portland branch.  We're building a couple more units to take to the WI show in two weeks, so for now they have one to play with in Portland.  Nathan is the one who knows the most about it.

A lot of our time was spent talking about the slab-to-dust issue.  We're definitely going to have to figure that one out.....it's going to be key to expanding the Bio-Dust paradigm.

annnddddddd--where at in wausau,wi ???? what time????? need particulars--thanks,oly

Bioman
The slab-to-dust problem seems important, from what has been said. Probably the expense of a machine big enough to hog the slabs is considerable.

I'm wondering if slabs could now be efficiently broken down while the log is still on the main saw rig, i.e. slab in 1" thickness down to the opening cut. Then rip the 1" slabs into strips that can be more easily fed into the smaller hog (that is apparently available).  Some of these strips might just end up either in a stake or sticker product, and not end up in the hog.  :)
Just thinking that the cheapest breakdown of the slabs may be already available to the person wanting to utilize the Sawdust Burner most efficiently and include slabs in the process. True, it will take more time, more handling, and more blade upkeep, but those expenses would be weighed against an expensive, heavy hogging machine.   Just a thought.

Or just cut the slab into 3' pieces and toss them into an outdoor boiler. smiley_devilish
Sorry to be a smart ash. I've been following this thread closely because I would be interested a way to heat with sawdust, planer shavings and edgers strips, which shouldn't be too hard to break down. I can't see how slabs can be broken down without a lot of heavy duty, expensive machinery. By the time one buys the burner, a hammer mill and a slab grinder, one could have been enjoying several years worth of gas heat for a lot less labor.  :D
There is already a product on the market that accepts slabs, perhaps peoples expectations of how to fuel the sawdust burner are too high? ???

THAT is my thinking on the subject!
I commend WM for building this burner, but I feel they are working in a small market trying to create a bigger market.
Fact remains that their system won't be any better for things like slabs then is already on the market and in use and I can see a lot more time involved in their product for slabs.
For the customers that do have piles of sawdust and such ready to go, this is indeed a good idea though.

Wausau info http://www.woodmizer.com/pdfs/WisconsinEventInfoA.pdf

We will have two burners at this show - one will be a hybrid that will have both air-to-air and hot water.

beenthere

When we had the Challenger we did exactly what you have described.  We took extra cuts on the slabs to the grinder could handle them.  It helped, but we didn't get all of them small enough so there were still hangups.

The biggest problem was this - when making small cuts to reduce butt slabs, the pieces were so short there wasn't a good way to handle them automatically.  Because of this they tended to fall into and hang up in the cat track, get stuck under/in the frame of the mill and they were a pain to clean up.  The longer everyone had to do this the less the liked the grinder - it eventually got taken out.

Brad_S

What you suggest is one good option.  The machines exist and work well, albeit they are facing challenges due to the turn-down issue and smoke.  This side of the industry is a bit nervous because of this.  They held a meeting in Reno a few weeks back looking for answers from the EPA - there are no simple solutions yet.

Our approach was born from the massive amounts of dust in our niche market that isn't easily marketed or disposed of.  Now that we can burn dust easily the natural question is what other biomass materials can be used?  Many of the biomass products available are already dry and easily ground into dust.  This is where we feel the bigger market potential is.

You guys are right about the slab market - not the prime focus for us.  We know there are several good slab burners.  Our key electrical engineer on this project uses a Hardy and it works well (except for the smoke).  I can also tell you he can't wait to get one of the dust burner units moved in to replace it.  Just the three day fuel supply is enough to make him want it.  Cutting, hauling and loading slabs isn't much fun either.  He'll also burn a lot less fuel because of dry fuel and turn off mode - not turn down.

Our main reason for pursuing the slab issue is because our customers are asking us too.  They have the real issue of getting rid of a pile of slabs.  It would be great if the people who sell slab burners could sell a lot more machines a create a demand for the slabs.  Somehow the market isn't moving there.  Brad's comment about not spending money and paying for gas holds true here  ;). 

If someone figures this challenge out I figure it will be with new technology of some kind.

I visited a man with a chip burner over the winter, a neat setup really.  He piles slabs, brush, trees etc next to his storage shed all year then hires a guy with a chipper to chip and blow it into his shed.   In 4 hours they chip the 12 cord of wood to fill the shed and are done for the year.  The chipper is a tractor mounted unit with a pulp grapple mounted to load big stuff.

It is a lot of energy to get from chip to dust, hopefully an efficient setup can be found.

Any idea what the guy charged for grinding?  I've heard numbers like 3K a day for a large tub grinder. 

Anyone know how many tons a tub grinder can process in a day?

Quote from: Bioman on April 04, 2007, 10:06:43 PM
Our approach was born from the massive amounts of dust in our niche market that isn't easily marketed or disposed of.  Now that we can burn dust easily the natural question is what other biomass materials can be used?  Many of the biomass products available are already dry and easily ground into dust.  This is where we feel the bigger market potential is.

Because of WM's nice thin kerf band blades my LT15 produces only about 15-20% of my total sawdust production.  The vast majority of my "sawdust" is actually planer and jointer shavings.  I suspect this is the case for any one who processes wood. 

Has Woodmizer looked at burning  shavings?  If their is a way to burn planer and jointer shavings along with sawdust, and the unit is high efficiency and self feeding and under $8,000.00 for heating 4000-5000 sq then I will be a customer ;D

Grinding slabs into chips takes a lot of energy let alone grinding it into dust :o  Sounds like that takes as much energy as making pellets.  Which are very convenient for those that do not want to get "dirty" while burning wood.  I can not see the man in a suite or women in high heals buying a bag of sawdust to take home and burn :D ::)  Then again think coal delivery ;)  So after a day of milling and collecting my dust back into my truck, I pull up to a customers house and auger the load of sawdust into their holding bin and send them the bill.  Just like it was done with coal.  Except this way it is environmentally GREEN and us little guys get to make a buck 8)

max

Although heat production from the sawdust (biomass) is interesting, the thought of co-generation is really interesting.  Just the thought of selling electricity back to the grid after all these years sounds great.

Peakebrook

Cogen is the real goal in all of this.  The ride getting there should be fun though :)

Max

The fuel used at the NM show was planer/molder shavings from douglas fir.  Worst case is we'll have to grind the shavings a little and then they become perfect fuel.  Mixed with the mill dust you many not even need to grind the shavings. 

Target price is 6-8 thousand and the domestic burner will heat 4-5000 feet (output is nominally 150,000 BTU).  So far we don't see any reason why we can't meet the price goal.

Had a rep for Echo Bearcat stop by today to demonstrate a little chipper/hammermill combo machine. 
LINK (http://bearcatproducts.com/main/products/view2_html?group=CHSHRED_HM&category=CHSHRED&description=Chipper/Shredders)

We fed it edgings, chips from the sawmill, cardboard and corncob bedding. 

For a 5 1/2 hp machine it did pretty well.  The screen needs to be a little smaller to make smaller chips, but overall it did a nice job.  It also let a lot of bigger pieces by the sides of the screen, so that would need to be closed up too.  It proves that converting hogged fuel (in our case paper chips) is easy to do.

The chipper part of the unit is too small and won't begin to suffice for anything more than small edgings.  I was impressed with the hammermill part though.  We poured chips into the upper hopper and it produced approx 5 gallons of chips in a minute or two.  The 5 gallons represents about 1 hour of heat  for a home.  Looks like a small hammermill has potential

The unit we demoed today sells for $1000.

   We just had a large horizontal grinder at the mill. A little over $3000/day. We ground about 1000 yds of slabs per day.

Mark

how many tons is that?

We hire a horizontal grinder too. It cost $350 to $375 per hour on his meter depending on fuel price.

At 780 hp it's a lot of bang for the buck.  A 2" baffle screen is used to make a nice uniform product.

When just slabs and edging are ground we'll get 125 + - yards per hour. Throw in some nasty nail infected logs and output suffers to around 75 yards. Still respectable for the 2" screen.

It seems an average price to grind is $3 per yard for the grinder, we feed the machine with our JD 320 skidsteer.

90% of our slabs and edgings are air dried before grinding. The mulch weighs around 450 lbs per cubic yard.

By the way, a horizontal grinder is faster than a tub and easier to load than a tub.  ;)

So let's do some rough math

Nominal output is 100 yards an hour
Cost is $375 an hour to grind
Average moisture content - 40%
Wet weight is 450 lbs per cubic yard
Dry weight is 270 lbs per cubic yard

That means 27,000 lbs (13.5 tons) an hour of dry fuel
Cost is $28 a ton dry

Market price for pellets and corn is $200/ton
That leaves $72/ton to grind the fuel down to dust and sell it at 1/2 the price of corn and pellets.

Certainly looks like we are on the right side of the equation.....or did I miss something?

Should have finished that last one

If you spend $22/ton grinding to dust (which it won't take) - that leaves $50/ton revenue
13.5 ton/hr x $50 = $675 hr potential revenue

8)

Now add in labor, insurance and equipment for moving material.
Plus bringing that much slabs/biomass to one location to grind as I'm sure it costs more for the grinder if it's only and hour job or if he has to move every hour or two.

I figured the $22/hr converting to dust included labor, maybe it wouldn't.  I think most places would already have a loader of some kind to move the dust and slabs.  But, you are right.  There would be additional costs for handling and storage.  But it looks like there is some pretty good potential to turn the process into a money maker.

At a place like ours where we already have the conveyors, screen for dust and chipper in place, it isn't much of a walkup to convert our chips to dust.  Our chips sell for $12/ton and the dust is given away.  Convert those to $100/ton market price and there is plenty of room to handle and store the dust.

None of this makes sense until there are sawdust burners in sufficient numbers to use the fuel.  Storage will have to be spread out.

I have a Crary/Bearcat chipper/shredder unit that I power off the pto on my tractor.  It does a good job for no bigger than it is.  It would do a much better job if I powered it off a bigger tractor.  My little compact only puts out 18hp at the pto.  The unit is much more efficient with 30hp.
You are right when you say the chipper is designed for small stuff.  The chute will only accept 4" material max.

Bioman,

Describe the actual product you stuck in the BearCat please.

We tried to run an 1 1/8" Red Oak edgings through Linda's dad's Crapsman 5.5hp 3" chipper and stalled the motor.

Sounds familiar - we couldn't feed 1x2 egdings continously.  We had to feed a little and wait - all while taking a beating from the vibration.  The only part that worked reasonably well was the hammermill.  Does your version have the hammermill  built in?

This unit did have the hammer mill with it, unfortionaly the massive 5.5hp stalled before the hammermill could impress me. It made such a racket I thought it was going to break something.  The Father-outlaw uses it to shred leaves and chip twigs.

We use a Rotochopper grinder to grind whole trees.  We consistently can grind 100 to 110 yards per hour.  This is dried cedar, probably in the 12 to 20 per cent moisture range.  About 15 to 18 tons per hour.  Takes 2 people. One person gathering the trees and the other feeding. So 2 skid steers are used.  We use a large tractor to move the grinder as needed because the pile of mulch grows quickly.  10 loads of mulch is a big pile. 15' high 20' wide by 180 feet long.

Different screens can be used to get a smaller particle size, but grinding time takes longer.  Hammers last a year before changing.

Chippers are more energy efficient because cutting is easier than beating.  A chipper that can chip 5 tons an hour can be had for $20,000 new.  A grinder is $150,000 and up, way up.

Our cedar mill uses a hog with 100 hp electric motor.  We can grind about 50 yards per day which is what we produce in a good day.  Cedar mulch is worth a lot more as mulch than as fuel.

A small mill can produce between 2 and 10,000 pounds of waste wood per day.  12 to 50 truck loads per year.  This is a lot of material to move.

We make about 1000 # of specially sized sawdust per day.  Our source is sawdust and planer shavings which we run through a granulator and a Sweco shaker to get the right size particle.  With a larger screen in the granulator, say 1/4 inch, and not screening, we could generate 5000 # per day.  The feed stock needs to be mulch size or smaller for best results.  I use a 15 hp planer to produce shavings as feedstock from very low grade lumber. 

I would hope that some engineer could produce a machine that had a bank of big saw teeth on a shaft that would chop the slab or edging strip rather than hog it.  Have a powered infeed with a feedback loop to stop the infeed if there was an rpm drop on the saws.  A blower could blow the material into a cyclone that would drop into a bin.

How much ash does 100# of wood with out bark produce?  How much ash does 100# of bark produce? 

I know this is a lot of rambling.  Hope there is some sense in it.

That's the kind of info I'm looking for - I need a few minutes to digest it though.

I can tell you that dust from a typical sawing operation that is primarily wood fiber and little bark is about 1/2- 1% ash.  We burn about 200 lbs of fuel at each demonstration.  The last time we measured (after 2 shows or 400 lbs or fuel) we had a handful of ash about the size of a large softball.

My first reaction to your info is that if there were a bunch of sawdust burners out there to use hogged-to-dust fuel, and you could reach the local market at retail prices at up to $150/ton, there is very good money making potential.

Thanks again for the info

Can anyone tell me how to post a picture?  When I hit the insert image it just gives me some text (//)

Cedarman

Do you travel and grind for hire?  If you do how much per hour?
How many hp on the Rotochopper?

Are you making wood flour that sells for approx $150/ton?

Cedarman - would the Super Sacks that we have at our facility in KY be from you?

OneWithWood,

What size BearCat do you have?

How hard would it be to convert to electric?


It might be nice to chip the small edgings right off the edger.

Bioman, yes, the supersacks are from me.
Our rotochopper is in Oklahoma.  We have yet to do a custom job, although we are looking at doing 2 acres of pallets near Oklahoma city.  We are grinding about 4 loads per day near Sulphur, Ok and have about 70 more to go.  We will take between 80 and 100 loads off of 40 acres.

Our sawdust sells for a good bit more than $150/ton.  It is specialized though.
Requires a good bit of effort to get it to the right particle size, not too big, not too small.

Hi Al,

It is a model 554.  I purchased the unit 11 years ago so there may have been some changes.  It would not be hard to power it with an electric motor.  You would need to add some type of blower or conveyor system to move the chips if you wanted to use it as a stationary unit.
It eats edgings without a problem.  It will stall when I try to cram a 4" branch down the chute.  But as I said before I do not have enough horses to power it efficiently.
I currenty cut up slabs and haul them over to the house to use in the Central Boiler furnace.  If I needed to produce chips I could cut the slabs down on the mill, much like edging on the mill, and feed them to the Bearcat.

Cedarman,

The reason I asked about the dust price is because I met a gal in the airport last week who is a manufacturer of vinyl siding and roofing.  She indicated she was having trouble getting wood four and that she was paying 7-8 cents /lb for material. 

I owe you a box of blades and a free box of resharp for your contribution.  I'll let them know to charge it to my department.  We appreciate your help - your wood flour is a very nice fuel.

I am saving all my dust and shavings. I am thinking positive. I sell the osage dust is all and keep the rest.

Bearcat makes pto models up to 9" with hydraulic feed.  Takes up to 60hp
to run it. 

Salsco makes one up to 10" with hydraulic feed.  The throats on the
Salsco seem to be wider for easier feeding. 

Hey Bioman I was sitting thinking last night while I was cutting slab wood on a cut off saw.  Carbide tipped 7 1/4" skilsaw blades are cheap, and amazingly durable.  We can buy them for 1 or 2$ a blade for cheapies.

If I stacked them with discs between spaced to keep the teeth from touching and keep dust out of the middle, then run a bolt through the stack, including using a couple of turned ends that could be supported in bearings, it would make a cheap corncob of cutting teeth that if you carefully designed the anvil and feed path would probably self feed pretty well.

My chop saw has only 4 teeth left on it now from hitting piles of nails over the summer while building and it still cuts pretty good, so the corncob would last well and only cost about 100$ to completely overhaul, and I doubt all the blades would really need replaced.

The bad part is I don't think they all have that diamond drive thing anymore so it would have to be a highspeed setup to keep the torque low.  If you could find diamond drive blades the spacers could be stamped to grab that and it could probably operate at low speeds.

Interesting idea.  Using the mass produced blades would keep cost down and maintenance would be easy.  I'll bounce that one off the guys around here.  We may even try throwing a small spindle together and see how it does.  Chip size would work very well.  I'll followup later after talking with the guys.

The discs between the blades will have to come almost out to the teeth since without them the shaft won't be stiff enough.  If I still had access to a machine shop I'd try something out too.

That spacer disk will be useful for locking the blades in sync too.

Maybe you could set the blades on an angle on the shaft so they wobble and cut a wider swath.  Wouldn't need nearly as many blades.

I'm working on something similar to this with the saw blades.   Will keep  everyone posted.  Hope it don't explode.  I do think you will need a MUCH heavier shaft than 5/8".  Blades will  need to be rebored to a larger shaft size.

It is going to take a good bit of power to  run those saws.  I did what you are saying with a gangrip and 15 hp motor.  I didn't use spacers, but i would like to try it.  You are going to have a big mass of steel spinning if you have 8 or 10 inches of blades and spacers.  I would think an 1 1/2" shaft at least.  Also, it has got to be balanced or vibration will be horrendous, unless operation at lower speeds.

How about a Swedish style sash gang saw?  The blades could be staggered and stacked. 

The power depends on how fast you turn it, it will take some torque.  If you had no spacers you would need a big shaft.  The spacers end up giving the shaft stiffness.  At low speed the vibs wouldn't be bad.

The tighter the blades (thiner spacers) and higher the tooth count the slower the self feeding and less hp it would require.  Of course then it would be really slow self feeding dry hardwoods.

I think the biggest challenge is keeping the blades from rotating on the shaft.  Easy answer is to drill a hole in the body and run a pin through the whole pack but then you can't just grab an off the shelf blade.  The diamond shaped drive solves it but is rare nowadays on cheapy blades.

Re running it angled, the teeth are too aggressive on a single blade and it would bind from self feeding too fast or gravity or force feeding to fast.

Quote from: Cedarman on April 11, 2007, 10:36:27 PM
It is going to take a good bit of power to  run those saws.  I did what you are saying with a gangrip and 15 hp motor.  I didn't use spacers, but i would like to try it.  You are going to have a big mass of steel spinning if you have 8 or 10 inches of blades and spacers.  I would think an 1 1/2" shaft at least.  Also, it has got to be balanced or vibration will be horrendous, unless operation at lower speeds.

one thing i,ve been wondering is just how big a slab this thing should be made to handle???
i have a little bitty hud-son oscar 18 bandsaw and i have some pretty wide slabs.i put the tape on a few and some are 16 inches wide and up to four inches thick.

           delbert

PS:where,s the best place to order cheap table saw blades in bulk??

Got a call from one of the 25th tour attendees from California today.  Says he figured out how to make up to 200 lbs / hr of dust from slabs with 1 1/2 hp.  He's sending dust sample tomorrow for review.  He didn't say how he did it, but he sounded pretty excited about it.

Anyone else come up with ideas or try it yet?

twobears, i'll check into buying blades in bulk with some of our vendors.

Bioman
Enjoyed your presentation at Wausau show Saturday. Turned out to be a great day. Probably not so great for all you folks setting things up for us. That was a big crowd of around 700 registrations, I heard.

Burlkraft and I wondered on the way home if a Ag hammermill would hog some biomass down to biodust. Probably you've tried that equipment. I shoveled a lot of ear corn into one, but don't know how they'd work with an oak slab....or edging.......or chips.

We haven't purchased our own yet, but it appears that through limited testing an AG hammermill with a 1/4" screen would work fine.  I screened the chips (1/4) we ran through the Bearcat and burned them wet yesterday. 

Thanks for coming to the Wausau show.  It was a pleasure meeting you.  You are right, it was a good day.  It's always fun to get together with so many people with common interests. 

I saw someone else with a Forestry Forum hat on, but didn't get a chance to say hi.  He had a camera on me so I'm guessing he knew who I was.  Did I hear there were 5 guys there who frequent the forum?

We posted a bunch of pictures from the show on the Wisconsin link of the www.biomizer.com site.  You may find yourself in there somewhere.

Bioman,for pictures go up to "help" on top of the page.There is something there about posting pictures.Looks like a lot at first,but it's not.Just follow it STEP by STEP.If I can do it,anyboby can.Seems like I had some trouble,but I asked a question and I was put on the right track.It gets alot easier the more you do it.

bioman----re using the burner to generate electrical power... You may be aware of this, but if not, here's something worth checking into::couple of years ago NASA (yeah, the aerospace guys) had a small back-burner project to develop a modernized version of a sterling cycle power plant. They had a working version stuffed under the hood of an old dodge pickup truck. I would guess at least 100 hp, it motivated the old dodge quite well. The powerplant was a completely sealed unit, just apply heat (they used an oil burner) and the output shaft started turning. The nice thing is--since it was developed using our tax money, the technology is public domain, free for the asking. NASA has a technology transfer operation somewhere in the organization, a few phone calls and some browsing on their web site (www.nasa.gov) might be worthwhile.

Back in 1998, I was involved in a demonstration project at the Pentagon where we used solar energy to drive a sterling power generator.  Basically it was a convixed disk array focused on a heat receiver that transferred the heat to the sterling, which in turn drove a 25KW genset.  And the real neat thing about this setup was that it could be powered by natural gas or propane when there was no/not enough sunlight.

Check out the article in the FEMP FOCUS magazine:  DOE FEMP Magazine link (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/pdfs/024903m_sum98.pdf)

Bruce

Just wanted you guys to know I'm not ignoring your threads.  I've been diverted to a different product line for the past few days (Lastec lawnmowers www.lastec.com).  We're introducing articulating mowers that range from 61,73,80 and 100".  Lot's of last minute details....

I'll get back to your posts as soon as we get the guys on the road to the MO show this weekend.

Thanks for the info on power generation - a lot of effort has gone into the Stirling technology; I hope it pays off some day.

Here's a link to the company we worked with for several years.  Most of the accomplishments they have posted were done while we were involved.  It seems they haven't worked on the 1kw generator since then.  Most of their success has been in the micro refigerators.  I notice NASA references the same technology.

I notice the link was not attached

http://www.gocpc.com/

Interesting history of wood gas - a surprising number of people don't know how widely the technology was used until natural gas and petrol became cheap

http://www.woodgas.com/history.htm

Another little known technology is torrefication

http://hem.fyristorg.com/zanzi/torrefaction.html

The company we visited was big into torrefication for cook stoves to be used in poor countries

Very interesting... I knew you were working with someone on this before, but that was about it. I cant wait till you get this all figgered  ;)

Things are still going well - just got back from our PA show where about 500 people attended.  Interest continues to be high and seminar sessions are well attended.  The main opportunity still points toward grinding technology for slabs and other biomass products.

You asked about cogen - The goal is 5 kw on the first pass.  Voltage will be 220 (or whateveryou need in Canada).  I can't give you a time frame at this point.  We will be back on this project later this year.

For those who are wondering:

It will require approx 100,000 to produce 5 kw at 17% efficiency.  Most of the losses are related to the latent heat of condensation.  So, if we use the condensation heat can to heat a building, structure, kiln etc,  the overall efficiency becomes  quite high.  Sounds like another win-win for most who would use this technology.

We're currently building the 1,000,000 BTU unit for kiln use right now.  I'll post pictures one of these days.

Any specific pictures of items any of you would like to see?  I may chose not to post pictures of some of the inner workings, but most of it is available.

I've got a question I have not seen an exact description off:  Does the unit atomize the dust ie blow the dust in suspension with air like a coal boiler or is the dust in a burn cup?  My guess from the diagrams is there is a cyclone the dust is introduced into but there must be a pilot or similar.

Id like to see anything of the cogen unit... maybe a pic of the current 1 000 000btu burner... oh, whatever you have handy  ;D

220 would be great, we use the same voltages and frequency you guys do (except for 3ph). Any plans at all for a dc model? 12, 24, 48v... Im thinking battery/inverter scenario... https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=23511.0 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=23511.0)

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/domestic_hydronic.jpg)

Here's a rendering of the fuel injection / anti-burnback system.  The fuel is dropped into an airstream that creates a venturi that pulls fuel from the feed tube and then creates the circular air flow in the chamber.  We're applying for patents on a few items and this is one of them.  It appears to be nearly impossible to burn back into the fuel tube with this configuration.  When the machine is off, air drafts through the injection blower keeping all of the outer tubing cold.

It is this configuration that creates the quick and complete burn of the biodust.  Dust does not get a chance to sit around and smoke or create clinkers while air is blown across the ashes.

Sorry, the previous picture is a little dark - I can repost if you need me to.

Here's a rendering of the 1,000,000 BTU unit that we're building right now.  The fuel bin system is not shown as that is the part we're still working on.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/Industrial_burner.jpg)

Voltage will probably be DC inverted to AC.  Too early to talk too much about this side of the project.

Bioman, actually the photos are sharp and  perfect. If they are appearing dark on your monitor, your monitor might be getting tired. I see that on here quite often where a members photos keep getting lighter and lighter then too light then you hear their monitor went kaputt.  :)

Great, thanks.

My next question is with the high combustion velocities, are you bothering to try to collect flyash or are you just sending it out the stack?  My jetstream boiler burns very clean but has embarassingly high very fine particulate emissions.

Very little flyash associated with WM-type sawdust.  Wood flour (40 mesh) has a little but not very noticeable unless burning inside the building (not recommended).  We do have some flyash with shredded magazines - however it certainly isn't an embarrasing amount.

I am not at liberty to show you the internal workings of the combustion chamber yet, however I can tell you the configuration reduces the problem significantly.  Flyash collects on horiontal surfaces in the hx, but we are allowing easy access for maintenance.

I just hit Wikipedia for a lesson on BTUs. Are we talking BTUs/hour? How many BTUs will be used by the generator? Can more than one generator be used on one burner without losing too much heating capacity, or at all?

Yes, that would be BTU's/hr. 

Using the math I proposed earlier, we could run the burner at 150,000/hr and generate 7.5KW and have 120,000 BTU left to heat a structure of some kind.

Ok, so one million BTUs is wide-open, and it runs at whatever rate it needs to supply the heat being drawn?

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on May 08, 2007, 07:48:40 PM
...Can more than one generator be used on one burner...?

The capacity of the cogen module will be limited by gas potential and motor size of the module itself.  A nominal amount of heat will be required to run the motor - in this case 100,000 btu for 5 kw.  If you were burning at the rate of 1,000,000 btu's the excess heat would go out the flu or to some other use - you would still only get 5kw and the requirement to run the motor would only be 100,000 btu's.  In theory, multiple modules could be fed by the 1,000,000 btu burner.

Im gettin it figgered out now, bear with me  ;D

So the industrial burner has a control to set the output rate? I wasnt sure if that was the case or if it made whatever heat was being drawn...

Does the heat exchanger use water or other liquid from the burner to do the exchange, and use a liquid to pump the heat out like a typical boiler?

The industrial unit is just a boiler.  The burner / heat exchanger is capable of 1,000,000 output - using wet fuel from the sawmill.  That means we have to burn about 8 yds/day to get the heat we need. 

Both units operate the same way - we use sawdust to create the heat to maintain water temp.  Once the temp is reached, the burner is shut down.  Just a simple boiler system.

The system is capable of being turned down if you don't need the continuous high burn rate.  The sawdust input and air input are variable.  The bottom line is if you don't need all that heat, you can choose to heat the water quickly or slowly based on the computer program that controls the air/dust input.

Is that what you were asking for?

Ok, so the million BTU burner and the industrial boiler are two different units? Does the burner not use high enough temps to actually boil the water and need high pressure gear?

Sorry, no.  The industrial unit is the 1,000,000 btu burner.  The first introduction of the machine is going to be an open system - not high temp and pressurized.

Does that mean that burning at capacity that you would use 8 yds per day over 24 hours.  This would be about 4800 pounds of sawdust at dry weight, is that correct?

Also, did you get a chance to run the cedar mulch?

I haven't run the numbers on yards to pounds lately - i'm going by memory from earlier calculations.  The 8 yard requirement is at 60% moisture.  It would be closer to 3000 lbs/day dry.

Sorry, forgot to answer about the mulch.  No, we didn't run it.  It won't feed into the small auger (kind of like the long planer shavings).  We have rebagged the cedar flour and have been using it a lot for testing.  It burns well, but you have to turn the auger up due to the lack of density to the product.  We can easily produce 150,000 /hr with it.

We had a storm come through and blow the tarp off of the supersacks so the sawdust got wet.  We emptied them out and rebagged in grain backs.  The testing I mentioned was burning wet dust (30 + %).

We will send the sacks back along with the blades.

Quote from: Bioman on May 09, 2007, 12:12:09 PM
...The industrial unit is the 1,000,000 btu burner. The first introduction of the machine is going to be an open system - not high temp and pressurized.

Gotcha, that was confusing me a bit...  ;)

Is there an approximate ratio between BTU output and sawdust consumed? At 500,000 BTUs, would it burn roughly 4 yards/day? I suppose it depends on the type of dust... assume WM-type sawdust...

Yes.  500,000 would equal roughly 4 yrds/day burning wet dust.  It would be half that if the fuel was dry. 

I'm headed to NY show - I'll check in from the hotel.

Quote from: Bioman on May 08, 2007, 07:51:45 PM
...generate 7.5KW...

Quote from: Bioman on May 08, 2007, 08:58:54 PM
...100,000 btu for 5 kw...

Are you thinking 5kw or 7.5kw? 7.5kw sounds good, could give 15kw with two installed, plenty for welding, shop work, etc...

Can't say for sure.  We just have to see how things work out. 

I can tell you we will be shifting resources to this project sooner than orignally planned.

Good news  ;D

Just got back from the NY show.  About 400 showed up, so we got to talk with a lot of people again.  It's the same thing everytime now. 

- When will it be available? - our plan is to release 10 of the 150,000 and ? of the industrial by Sept.
- Is it a boiler? - it can be a boiler (open system) or an air to air unit
- How much? target price is $6-8K on the 150,000 unit and $15-20K for the 1,000,000 unit
- What about moisture? - 30% or less on the small unit and green in the big one
- What about a grinder/dryer/screener? - we'll be working on the screen/dryer first - then the grinder - the dryer/screener should be avaliable with the release of the first 150,000 units.

oops - message was sent before I was done -s orry

- chip size? - approx 3/8 screen, maybe bigger - the 1,000,000 unit can be 3/4"
- new update soon to be mailed out will include an application to be one of the first recipients for the pilot run of machines, we are looking for versatile applications to test the product
- how to store the dust? - you store it on the ground until ready to use.  Otherwise, if you have storage space bag it ahead of time and store it in a dry place.  The dust can be dried in the bag over a few weeks time by air drying.  It only takes a couple of days to dry it in the bag if you have a kiln.  The best way will be to use a dryer system that we will be introducing later this year.

We ran wheat straw at the show in NY - it burns well.  The only change we had to make was a faster screw feed speed because of the less dense fuel.  Mixed with sawdust it makes a hot fuel that starts very quickly.  It was a nice combination.

We ran the burner inside the tent (16 x 16).  No smoke, couldn't smell it and there wasn't any flyash.  The machine was cycling on and off based on the combustion temp.  Pretty neat demo to prove how clean it burns.

Nice up date.

Will the Co-Gen be available as an ad on to the Bio-Mizer?

Or will the Co-Gen/Bio-Mizer be a stand alone unit?

The plan is to have it plug into any boiler......all you need is hot water.

OH!!!  I like that plan,  I REALLY like that plan.  That is wise thinking on WM part.  Anyone with an outdoor boiler could plug in a  5KW cogen unit.  Where do I buy stock in this???

Oops...I mispoke.  It will require pressure, so open systems won't work.  The gases we plan on using require less heat to make the pressure we need, but it will still require a pressurized system - my bad -

Bioman,

I have open system. I am wondering if you could use a water to water heat exchanger and make the second loop pressurized.

Ron

I can't answer that one yet.  I'm doing a little learning myself when it comes to the cogen (obviously).  I'll be working with or engineer over the next few weeks to make sure we understand completely what the schematic looks like. 

FYI - we're picking up a truckload of coal dust from a 40 year old slurry pit to see if it will be a good fuel source for us.  My guess is if it is mixed with something like straw or sawdust we will have a premium fuel.  I'll keep you posted.

If a CoGen is set up to power a conventional hot water kiln exclusively, how will you generate power when the kiln is not calling for heat.

Yesterday it was 90 degrees and the kiln schedule for White Oak called for 110 degrees. We hardly burnt any wood in 24 hours. But the fans ran the whole time.

Just curious as to how excess hot water will be dealt with.

I'm not sure I quite understand the question.

The boiler/cogen unit will be designed to make power all of the time.  Any power not used will be put back on the grid or stored in batteries.  The latent heat of condensation will be used to heat the kiln when needed.  Otherwise the heat becomes a loss factor and dumped into the atmosphere.  That's when you get back to the approx 17% efficiency - when you can't use the condensation heat.  If you make power and don't need the heat - efficiency will be under 20%.

You have mentioned burning paper and coal dust along with sawdust but I am wondering about shredded or ground plastics mixed with sawdust too?  Here we produce alot of waste plastic and cardboard on the farm.  It would be neat to use it for heat instead of fill at the landfill.  It could be mix lightly with the sawdust from the mill maybe?

Doug

I'll try it.  The shredder I have will shred items like credit cards and cd's.  Good idea.

The coal slurry we picked up is approx 60% coal and 40% sand/dirt.  We mixed it with sawdust and got a 44% MC fuel that started well and burned well as long as it was hot.  Of course there was a lot of ash, but with auto ash removal it isn't that big of a deal. 

We haven't tried burning the slurry by itself yet because we have to dry some first.  I'm currently drying a mixture of sawdust and coal slurry to see what it does.  We tried drying the coal slurry by itself and it rolled into little balls in the mixer - weird.  As soon as the sawdust was added it broke apart into a nice fuel.

QuoteThe latent heat of condensation will be used to heat the kiln when needed.  Otherwise the heat becomes a loss factor and dumped into the atmosphere.

This answered my question.


Are you having fun burning stuff 8)

Becareful drying the coal dust.  That is a very explosive material at the right conditons. :o

Doug

Thanks for the reminder.  Right now it is an wet pile mixed 60-40 with sand.

My prediction on this material is that once mixed with a different fuel it is a viable additive.  The ash conent of the fuel offsets the BTU value of the coal, but it burns really well.  We still haven't tried burning it without the sawdust mix.  We tried drying it in a plastic cement mixer and it didn't work.  Next we're just going to spread it out on concrete for awhile to get the majority of the water out of it.

I'm up for suggestions on an easy way to dry a couple hundred pounds of this stuff.

Yes, we're having fun burning all of the different materials.  I'm still looking for something to jump up and bite us, but no show stoppers yet.

Quote from: Bioman on May 09, 2007, 12:12:09 PM
...The industrial unit is the 1,000,000 btu burner.  The first introduction of the machine is going to be an open system - not high temp and pressurized.

Quote from: Bioman on May 14, 2007, 07:50:13 PM
...It (cogen) will require pressure, so open systems won't work...it will still require a pressurized system...

So cogen wont be an option on the first generation of 1,000,000 btu burners?

Quote from: farmerdoug on May 16, 2007, 02:05:01 PM
You have mentioned burning paper and coal dust along with sawdust but I am wondering about shredded or ground plastics mixed with sawdust too? Here we produce alot of waste plastic and cardboard on the farm. It would be neat to use it for heat instead of fill at the landfill. It could be mix lightly with the sawdust from the mill maybe?

Doug

What kind of waste plastic are you referring too?

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on May 17, 2007, 10:44:47 AM

Quote from: Bioman on May 09, 2007, 12:12:09 PM
...The industrial unit is the 1,000,000 btu burner.  The first introduction of the machine is going to be an open system - not high temp and pressurized.

Quote from: Bioman on May 14, 2007, 07:50:13 PM
...It (cogen) will require pressure, so open systems won't work...it will still require a pressurized system...

So cogen wont be an option on the first generation of 1,000,000 btu burners?

Okay, let me share one more bit of info and then I'll have to abstain from talking about the cogen until we get further along with the project.

If we use water, the system will have to be pressurized to get the temps we need.   Existing systems will not be capable of handling the pressure produced while raising the water to the temps required.

The cogen unit itself will be self contained and pressurized, so it isn't a factor here. 

If we use hx oil, the system can remain open and we can achieve the temps we need.  So in other words, any of our systems could possibly be used to make power by converting the fluid from water to oil.  Plus, the oil is not corrosive over time like the water is.     8)

Of course all of this is theory until proven.  We believe it can be done - we have the resources to make it happen.

Plastics are varied.

HDPE
LDPE
polystyrene(sp)
etc.

I can get a better list if you need it.  Plastic waste here is from jugs, bottles, flats, pots, film, also electronic cases from my dad's recycling of scrap too.

Doug

On drying the coal dust I would make some frames with a cloth like canvas for the bottom to let the moisture drip and dry from both sides.  Under cover and up off the ground it should dry quickly.

Doug

What about ground up tires?
Can tires be ground to a small enough particle efficiently?

Cedarman,

I was thinking the same thing this morning on the tires too. 


Doug

Seems I recall that tires can be broken down into small bits if they are frozen to real sub-zero temps. That was years ago, so the technology may have changed since then. The cost was pretty high at the time.
Burning tires and plastic would seemingly produce some noxious fumes, or isn't that a concern? ???

When I lived in Salmon Arm, BC, there was a company called Dinoflex near our shop (http://www.dinoflex.com/ (http://www.dinoflex.com/)). They make recycled tire products like floor mats, that sort of thing. Looks like they have the tires chopped up pretty fine somehow... wonder how they deal with the steel belts and the steel in the beads...

Bioman, what is hx oil? Expensive?

Don't have prices yet on the hx oil - there are several available.  Here's a link to one site with a lot on info.

http://www.abco.dk/Thermal_Fluid.htm

Thanks for the idea on drying coal. 

I'd love to try mixing rubber with sawdust.  If anyone finds a place to get small pieces let me know. 

Testing goes on.....it all looks good.  We're firing up the latest 1,000,000 hx this week.

Look for a tire shredder in your area and they should be able to supply you with some crumb rubber.

Farmerdoug

"Crumb rubber", now there is a nice term. It just sounds so cute. :D :D

Thats almost as good as the big box we saw at the Forest Products Laboratory Labeled CBBM. "Composted Bovine Bio Matter"  :D  I'm sure that would burn very well.  :)  They were going to start making some pressed resin board out of it.
(We already covered all the joke implications on site guys  :D)

With all the coal mines around here I should be able to find someone who shreds tires.  I'll check into it.

Check with any tire retreaders in your area too.  They grind off the old tread to make way for the retread.

Farmerdoug

i watched a show on making those tire mats.the tires where put thur a device that shreded them into very small pieces.then,those got ran by a magnet taking the steel out.
a paper mill in ny state did a test burn of tires/wood chips.the locals had a fit when,they heard of it and the test was cut short because of high emissions.

delbert

There was a company that wanted to build a tire burning plant near a small town here. In spite of approvals from the PCA the residents fought bitterly against the plant and stopped it completely.

There is a huge energy resource (old tires) going to waste because nobody wants any tires burned near their home.

I'm scheduled to pick up some rubber dust from our local tire service Monday afternoon.  They ship it out in large sacks to a rubber company.

Another idea popped into my mind.  Used oil mixed with the sawdust?  Be an interesting use for it.  Always have some around the farm.

Farmerdoug

Thought about it but haven't tried it.  We have a lot of tramp oil from our ReSharp service that would be nice to get a good use out of.  We'll try that and used motor oil.

Not to throw a wet blanket on anything, but, all this stuff might best be left to the individual user, that doesn't any neighbors close. Regardless of how clean anything burns somebody is going to want to see some certification papers of some sort on every item listed that it can burn.

I know that if I had one it would be fed everything I could get in it, anybody ask, sawdust only.

You are right.  We'll have to sell it as a Bio-Dust burner with all the legal issues covered - meaning we'll only promote recommended fuels like sawdust. 

It's just hard to not test the limits of the technology - it is too much fun.  If we don't someone will and we should know as much about the good (and bad)  :o of how a machine like this works.

We fired up the 1,000,000 BTU unit yesterday (burning fresh wet dust from the sawmill).  It looks like we'll have to add a few more tubes to the hx to get the output we're looking for.  Testing goes on....

Don't get me wrong, didn't say you shouldn't , wasn't criticising(sp) your adventerous attitude at all.

Be a lot of fun to play with this thing myself.

Have fun.

There is some seriously weird chemistry that goes on combusting long chain carbon molecules at 1800 plus temp.  Is there a way to put a sensor in the flue gasses to monitor any unusual molecules and see what different feed stocks produce when they are burned?

You raise a very good point, Cedarman.  Some of those chains convert to some noxious and possibly toxic gases.

Do you really think you could burn plastic and rubber reasonably clean? Sounds like a huge potential if you can...

The oil/sawdust thing got me thinking about the shops we sell sawdust to already for floor dry material. The used floor dry is a nusiance to get rid of, they have lots of used oil around already, and need lots of heat for the shop...

I think lately if you could use the CO2 produced to make one of the skeeter vac's, you could power the boiler off mosquito bodies around here! Bug season has begun!

Quote from: WH_Conley on May 23, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Don't get me wrong, didn't say you shouldn't , wasn't criticising(sp) your adventerous attitude at all.

Be a lot of fun to play with this thing myself.

Have fun.

Didn't take it as criticism - it was a point well taken.   I have to say that testing all the weird stuff is fun. 

We picked up the rubber shreds today, so we'll get to test it later this week.  I'll be mixing it with sawdust as a 'booster' for BTU value. 

We've had some delays with finishing the latest test version (small unit with auto ash removal and a high efficiency 50 gallon tank).  We should have it running Thursday - if so I'll be heating the pool with junk mail this weekend  8)

On the subject of emissions - we'll be taking a close look at what these 'booster' fuels do to them.  We can cap the combustion temp with the computer, so if burning at cooler temps help (we're running at 1600 for longevity purposes),  then we may be able to reduce the problem. 

Interesting. I would have thought cooler temps = more emissions...

If you run the combustion process as oxygen starved to limit the exhaust temperatures, you create the potential for more noxious emissions.

Most of the problem emissions come from the nitrogen oxides (NO_x) and sulfur dioxides (SO₂) that are created. You cannot escape the nitrogen oxide problem as the combustion air is 79 % nitrogen, but anything you burn with sulfur in it is a problem. Also, you can have problems with emissions from somebody else's polution. If you ever had a gas fired clothes dryer, you know how bad your clothes stink after you paint something in the house.

Here in MN, even though we can still have a burn barrel, we are supposed to be limited on what we burn. We are not supposed to burn paper and cardboard plus we are prohibited from burning: oils, rubber, plastics, tires, and chemically treated materials such as railroad ties, treated lumber, composite shingles, tar paper, insulation, composition board, sheet rock, wiring, paint, and hazardous and industrial solid waste.   ;D 

I believe the DNR is charged with enforcement and they do come and check the unburned residue, especially for the wires in the tires.   ::) 

The burning restrictions are supposed to be according to Minesota Statutites  MS 88.16. but sometimes they just make up the specifics as they go along.  >:( >:( 

I don't claim to understand all of the chemistry involved in burning different fuels.  We have a chemist on the payroll that can do this for us when we get to that stage. 

I can tell you we don't starve the combustion process of oxygen.  There is a TC tucked into the wall of the combustion chamber that we use to monitor combustion temps.  We add fuel at a specific rate for BTU output value and then air at a slight excess air mixture to ensure clean burning.  The temp is controlled by shutting the fuel/air totally off when it hits the programmed max limit.  It turns back on when the temp drops to a preset level (say, 50 degrees below max limit).  The unit then sits there and cycles at a nice hot temp with optimum mixture and temp.  The temps can be controlled to any limit within reason.  We currently limit to 1600 for longevity reasons.  Life of the components drop as the combustion temp limits are increased.  We don't have any trouble running the unit up to 2000 degrees, we just don't like to do it long term. 

Tests of Nox emmissions on sawdust are extremely favorable.  We don't currently check for sulfur dioxides but we will.  CO levels are typically below .01.

Again, we're just playing so far - inquiring minds want to know.....

I see MN made the news with a turkey litter cogen system.  I think I also heard there was a state requirement to create 50 gigawatts of electricity from renewable fuel.  Is this correct?

Why not burn paper and cardboard?  Flying ash?  Emissions from ink?

Stupidity ??????????????????

  If you check off all the things in Gary's list, what's left ???  Metal ???

I am not sure of the reasons for not burning paper and cardboard. Someone said it was something in the manufacturing of cardboard but it may be just they prefer you recycle the paper products.

I can't keep up with all the things this state messes with. The legislature just adjourned, thank God, and we will not know till later what all the garbage they have dumped on us. Just for logging, while everyone is struggling, the DNR has imposed new requirements for insurance on loggers.

Our govenor is the best DanG govenor the insurance companies could buy.  >:(

The reason (not to burn paper and cardboard) we are given is that it is to be recycled, and put out for recyclable pick-up.

Also problems with papers:
-high clay content in shiney papers
-inks
-lead compounds used to be in glossy prints
-some the glues used in cardboards (phenol fromeldhylde used to be used, doubt it now)

Any more out there?  I'm guessing newprint is the best of the bunch.

We just fired up the latest prototype burner with ash removal (portable 150,000 btu size).  It looks good so far.

We ran some cedar flour mixed with rubber shavings.  Talk about super charged sawdust  :o - we had to turn the fuel down to 20% and the air up to 90% to get the burn we wanted - and my best guess is we were still burning at over 100,000 BTU rate.  We did this inside a building and with very little odor or visible emmisions.  However, we did notice a small amount of soot on the surface of horizontal surfaces after about an hour of run time. 

Combustion temps settled in at 1300 with the above settings.  I have no idea what the emmissions were chemically speaking - we'll have to check that at a later date.  You wouldn't have known the burner was running if it had been outside....

I hope to heat my pool with junk mail tomorrow - after I fix my pool filter pump  >:(

Update on the hickerbilly pool heater (that's what someone called it when they saw it with the wheels and hoses next to the pool)

I've been running the burner to heat the pool for the last few days - we're finding a few bugs in the new ash system and fuel systems - no show stoppers.

Summary so far -

Junk mail works well - it is high ash content but not a big deal with the ash removal

I mixed the junk mail with wet sawdust to see what the average drop in MC would do - had to be careful because the paper shreds got soft and sticky.

Burning rubber increases BTU value but the ashes are a mess to work with.

The water-to-water exchanger is producing approx 100,000 BTU output

Plain sawdust is still the best fuel to use

I'll post a picture in the next day or two

Are you just putting the junk mail thru a cross-cut shredder or something?

We're using a high security shredder made by Fellows.

Bioman,

I think if you do the cogen you should use the Hx oil.  Any boiler around that is under pressure needs a licensed boiler installer.

What is the energy storage capacity of the oil compared to water?  What is the rough cost of the oil?

My CB boiler holds 800 gallons plus the lines so the costs maybe high for all oil in the system but a oil to water heat exchanger would probably work great.

Farmerdoug

Bioman ~ Whats this I hear about you not coming up to New Brunswick for our 25th Celebration?  :-\  I was hoping to pick your brain a bit more  ;D.

Bioman seems to be busy or quiet lately.  I hope he comes back soon.  This has been a great thread so far.  Like to hear more.

Doug

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on June 18, 2007, 10:35:18 AM
Bioman ~ Whats this I hear about you not coming up to New Brunswick for our 25th Celebration?  :-\  I was hoping to pick your brain a bit more  ;D.

LT40HDD51 - it was good to see you at the NB show - thanks for your help. 

Quote from: farmerdoug on June 27, 2007, 02:06:06 PM
Bioman seems to be busy or quiet lately. I hope he comes back soon. This has been a great thread so far. Like to hear more.

Doug

I've been on the road a lot lately - I'll have time to update you guys sometime in the next few days.  The project is moving forward gracefully.  We've picked three locations for installation of the 1,000,000 BTU test units and will start the selection process of the 10 small unit locations in the next couple of weeks.

I'm also working on that grinder project - I hope to do a proof-of-concept the week of the 4th.....

I met Bioman at the 25th anniversary celebration at Little Britian on Saturday.  I am looking forward to seeing what the production version of the burner looks like.  It was great to see the prototype working.  I am definitely going to keep my eye on this.

Thanks for coming to the show.  It was nice meeting you and your family. 

We turned the grinder project over to our R&D guys at our sawmill manufacturing facility last week.  We may see a working prototype this week or next.   8)

Scott,

Will the small boiler be able to handle planner shavings from a shelix head?

Farmerdoug

Bioman, whats the odds of bringing the bio-mizer up to the pigroast?  We could make sure the pool is warm enough to swim in. :) Dave Mann and sparks are coming that I know of.  :)

Sure would be nice.  The highs forecasted for this Friday is in the sixties.  Between the dry and cool things are growing slow around here forsure. :(

Farmerdoug

Quote from: farmerdoug on July 17, 2007, 10:49:37 PM
Scott,

Will the small boiler be able to handle planner shavings from a helix head?

Farmerdoug

My experience with small knives on planer/molder heads says yes.  You would need to screen out the occassional large splinter, but otherwise it is good fuel.  We ran this type of fuel at the NM show.  That fact that it was planed usually means the material is dry which is also a good thing.

Quote from: Jeff B on July 17, 2007, 11:05:40 PM
Bioman, whats the odds of bringing the bio-mizer up to the pigroast? We could make sure the pool is warm enough to swim in. :) Dave Mann and sparks are coming that I know of. :)

It looks like the schedule may allow us to come.  I don't see a link for the actual schedule of events.  If someone could post for me please I can verify the schedule will work for us.

bioman
Jeff just posted yesterday.

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=26719.msg382003#msg382003

Thanks, I saw that one but am I missing city and state?  Sorry for the ignorance.....

Harrison MI.

Go to Jeff B's profile and enter your zip code.  It will give you directions right to JeffB's.

Farmerdoug

Thank you.

How many people attend this event?

In the past its been somewhere between 120 to 150  :)

Bioman, give Dave Mann a Call. He's been here before and can answer any questions you might have in regards to the Pig Roast.  :)

Here is one of the threads from last year.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=19982.0

Search for pigroast and you'll see stuff all the way back to the beginning.  :)

I'll bring 50 to 100 pounds of cedar sawdust so you can see what the perfect fuel can be. :D :D

Jeff,

Is it appropriate to have an informal discussion group opportunity with those interested in the burner if we bring it?  Since I haven't been to the pig roast in the past I don't know if it would work out or if people would want to get together for a half hour or so...it's a lot easier to explain things as a group rather than one at a time.

I dont know why not.  Probably after we eat we and before we do our door prize drawing we could call together anyone that is interested for a guided tour. :)  I can asure you though yer goona have guys hanging around it kicking tires and making comments. ;)   You've been here long enough to know what this bunch is like. :)

Yeah, I'll be looking it over pretty good! ;D

Um, Bioman, better bring some locks. ;)

Just what ya implying there boss man ??? ;D

 ;)

this is a great idea  8)

Ya just can't wait til October eh Stump Jumper ???
Gotta jump the gun and look one over at the roast! :D

Just as long as Furby does not try to eat it we will be good. :D :D ::)

Farmerdoug

Informal....ya gotta be kiddin.. :D :D :D

The only time I see anyone bunched up was at the food line, at the drawing, or when Arky showed up...showed up......showed up....showed up.... etc, etc, etc.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/reakarky.jpg)

Sounds like a lot of fun.

Want me to bring the pool heater exhanger?  The demo unit can put approx 100,000 btu/hr through the hx.  We would have to be able to roll the unit to within 20' of the pool (small pump).  

I heard there was going to be log burling in the pool this year so I'm bringing my caulk boots.

Quote from: Bioman on July 19, 2007, 08:50:38 PM
Sounds like a lot of fun.

Want me to bring the pool heater exhanger?  The demo unit can put approx 100,000 btu/hr through the hx.  We would have to be able to roll the unit to within 20' of the pool (small pump). 

You bet! and thats no problem getting that close.  :)


Paul, behave yerself.

Cool! 8)
Now I got someone to compete with AND warm water. smiley_hellow_im_here smiley_hellow_im_here smiley_hellow_im_here

Biggest hottub in Harrison, and maybe even Michigand ;D ;D ;D

So much for the "family" side of the roast.
Now it's an all out tub party! 8) :o

I dont think so... :)

Jeff,

It looks like 3 or 4 of us coming.  Is it all right to show up Friday to get some heat into the pool?

Not speaking for Jeff, but because he may not have seen this yet, I'd say you won't have a problem showing up on Friday.
If anyone hassles ya, tell them to go see me! ;) ;D

Furby's right. Friday is fine!  Bring dry cloths... ;D

I dont know if it was mentioned here guys, but this is a true family outing. Bring the kids and wives as they always have as much fun as we do. More even. I know that the different kids that come now look forward to this and meeting up again with their friends from other parts of the country.

Its been in the 90s here and the pool water has been warm. We can fix that though!  I'll back wash the heckout of it friday and we can add 1000 gallons of well water. ;D   That oughta brighten ones day if they hop into it if its still 90!  (that way they really will appreciate the value of the Bio-Mizer!)

Sounds good - we're looking forward to the fellowship

Grinder update -

Our first pass at grinding dust from slabs is generating approx 50 lbs/hr with a 3 hp motor.   Plenty of room for improvement to get more.....

Well guys, since I could not make the roast tell me what you thought of the burner.

Bioman,  I missed you but we will talk again.  Glad to hear the prototype sawdust maker is working.

Farmerdoug

I saw a big unit at the farm show today, I belive it came from Poland,they said it burned chips and sawdust,looked like a similer unit only it was pretty big.

I heard about the unit at the farm show too.  It's a Hamech from Poland.  There are a few of them around here and sold by a guy @ www.stjosephky.com if you want to see some info in English. 

It's a gasifier and a bit larger.  I assume more expensive too.

Quote from: farmerdoug on August 08, 2007, 09:10:44 PM
Well guys, since I could not make the roast tell me what you thought of the burner.

Bioman, I missed you but we will talk again. Glad to hear the prototype sawdust maker is working.

Farmerdoug

I'll let others give the feedback and opinions - the statistics are we heated the pool from 78 to 91 degrees while running the unit for about 16 hours. 

Jeff, thanks again for the good time and hospitality.

Farmerdoug, we're going to start building the newest revision of the domestic unit for test distribution in the next couple of weeks.  We fire up the latest industrial unit tomorrow.

The pool reaches 91 degrees.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/biomizer.JPG)

Since we've been showing the Bio-Mizer before it is ready, I thought I'd see if you guys were interested in watching the development process of the Bio-Dust grinder too.

If you are, be nice - development takes time.  This video clip is of the 1st prototype proof-of-concept to see if we can use bandsaw blade stock as a grinding wheel.  The unit obviously grinds to fine and slow, but it does grind at the rate of approx 50 lbs/hr.  We have a long way to go and we haven't tried anything other than a few slabs so far.  I've asked them to try grinding chips next.

I keep telling everyone we just need to burn a few extra brain cells to come up with the solution here.  I'm open to feedback of any kind.

For those interested, follow this link.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eh0vIxAGjc

bioman:do you have anymore pic's of that grinder you can share?? and was i seeing right is it air powered??

delbert

It was a pleasure to have the Bio-mizer guys at the pigroast and even to entrust their baby to us over night unsupervised. Scott (Bioman) told us we were the first group to do a start up on our own.  We let it go out along with the pig roaster over night and got up the next morning and restarted it effortlessly. At one point when we had the heat exchanger choked back, we were getting 175° water flowing into the pool at a rate faster then an average home water faucet running and at the same time blowing air out a separate heat exchanger.  That was the warmest we had EVER had the pool.  We were heating over 13,000 gallons of water  and what Scott doesn't even know is that I put probably 1000 gallons of cold direct-from-the-well water back in during the night to replenish what the kids and evaporation had removed during the day.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/biomizer_furby.jpg)

Here is a photo from our pigroast photo thread found here.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=26981.0

Bioman,  You said that the dust was fine and too slow, right?

My first thought is you said you were using bandsaw blade stock.  What HP did you use in the test and did you slow the flywheel down much?

I have noticed that if I have the feedrate to slow on my mill I get fine sawdust.  I think you are going in the right direction but need to have a faster feed rate.   Maybe a power feed.

That being said, how many teeth do you think were cutting at once in the slab?  I can say one thing,  lots of HP is needed.  Angling the feedstock will help but require even more HP.  Think real wide cuts and then some.

One final question,  How much sawdust does a LT40 or LT70 produce in a good hour of cutting?


Farmerdoug

Quote from: twobears on August 12, 2007, 07:07:34 PM

bioman:do you have anymore pic's of that grinder you can share?? and was i seeing right is it air powered??

delbert

Sorry, that's all I have at the moment.  I'll have to get some pictures taken by the guys at the New Point plant (where we make the sawmills). 

The air is for cleaning the disk.  They had some loading problems without it so they added air and let it fly for test purposes.  It is powered by a 3 hp motor.

Quote from: farmerdoug on August 12, 2007, 09:11:57 PM
Bioman, You said that the dust was fine and too slow, right?

My first thought is you said you were using bandsaw blade stock. What HP did you use in the test and did you slow the flywheel down much?

I have noticed that if I have the feedrate to slow on my mill I get fine sawdust. I think you are going in the right direction but need to have a faster feed rate. Maybe a power feed.

That being said, how many teeth do you think were cutting at once in the slab? I can say one thing, lots of HP is needed. Angling the feedstock will help but require even more HP. Think real wide cuts and then some.

One final question, How much sawdust does a LT40 or LT70 produce in a good hour of cutting?


Farmerdoug

Yes, we're using some bandsaw stock to see if we can prove the concept.  They tried running it slower at first and didn't like the performance.  The video shows a test with it sped up.

I asked them to keep the hp low and see what kind of feed rates we could get (lb/hr).  They started with 3 hp.  You can hear the flywheel loading down in the video, so I don't think they could have pushed much harder.

We can get faster feed rates with more hp.  We just need to find the right combination of tooth spacing, flywheel speed and feed speed.

There are probably 20-50 teeth engaged on a piece 2x8 - too many...

If I remember right, we get approx 100 lbs of sawdust per 500 board feet when grade sawing 1" lumber. 

Scott,

Have you conceder using VFD/VSDs instead of trying to figure out the gearing.  I've used several from .5 hp to 600hp and never had any problems.  I loved the infinite speed control for controlling everything from air pressure in AC ducts to pumping water.

Also, while I was at the GovEnergy show in New Orleans, I bumped into some guys from the Department of Energy (DOE) biomass lab in Morgantown WV.  They were very interested in your product.  I told them to go to the Wood Mizer web site and look for the Bio Mizer. 

When I find the time in the office, I will forward you're their info and a small CD ROM I picked up at the show.

Bruce

Bioman,

If you get 50lbs per hour with 3 HP and a LT40/70 gets an 100lbs per hour with 40+HP then I guess you are doing great.  It would be interesting to test it with a larger motor to see what the improvement of production would be.

Farmerdoug

I'm in Indy for meetings today.  I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow.

Bioman,

How will this machine handle the bark and dust that accumulates under the mill?

Or will a different machine have to be developed to deal with the mess?



ElectricAl

ElectricAL

The plan is that anything that will fit in the hopper will be ground to dust.  I'm trying to get some paper chips to them now for testing.  I'll try the floor sweepings too.

Quote from: farmerdoug on August 15, 2007, 09:04:26 AM
Bioman,

If you get 50lbs per hour with 3 HP and a LT40/70 gets an 100lbs per hour with 40+HP then I guess you are doing great. It would be interesting to test it with a larger motor to see what the improvement of production would be.

Farmerdoug

I think it is a good beginning.  I'm hoping to make it more of a self feeder  in the future.  Engineering time is at a premium for us right now and this project is taking back seat to a few of the bigger ones.  More hp and modified hopper / feed angle are next on the list.

Quote from: submarinesailor on August 14, 2007, 07:03:59 PM
Scott,

Have you conceder using VFD/VSDs instead of trying to figure out the gearing. I've used several from .5 hp to 600hp and never had any problems. I loved the infinite speed control for controlling everything from air pressure in AC ducts to pumping water.

Also, while I was at the GovEnergy show in New Orleans, I bumped into some guys from the Department of Energy (DOE) biomass lab in Morgantown WV. They were very interested in your product. I told them to go to the Wood Mizer web site and look for the Bio Mizer.

When I find the time in the office, I will forward you're their info and a small CD ROM I picked up at the show.

Bruce

Yes we have and we use them on the current Bio-Mizers.  The guys at our NP plant don't have that technology just laying around so they grabbed a small motor per our specs and gave it a try.   We'll apply variable drives and HP to the prototype when we get a chance to work on it here in KY. 

Hi Scott. You guys have been busy  ;D. Weve been flat-out too, this is the first time Ive checked in here since I saw you...

That grinder sure looks promising, you guys need to get it to Kentucky and get your hands on it  ;D.

I was thinking of an infeed track kind of like what you have on the multiheads or the SHR, a segmented metal type, and a C-shaped piece on the hind end to push the end of the slab and keep it from kicking up. I assume it wouldnt be able to grind the whole thing, was thinking that the small piece of slab at the end would kick out under the unit. Then the track could reset back for another one, and when the operator was ready he could load another one and start the cycle again. Im thinking of having it running all day while youre sawing, and be fast enough to handle 4 slabs per log on average.

You mentioned bark chips and floor sweepings. Are you thinking about having it grind whole slabs and have a hopper of some kind you can add to grind the finer stuff? How about grinding large chips? When we live-saw most of our softwoods and put everything through the edger, we wind up with a huge heap of edgings in a few days. Im thinking that our big ol' 12" chipper would be the ticket to break them down in a hurry, if there isnt a way to feed the edgings into your grinder in one piece. As was said way back somewhere at the start of this thread, grinding chips to dust would be great because of the cheap technology already available to make wood into chips...

Yes, we've been busy.  The show machine made it back from the tour and now we're building a new rev model for the Indy show.  This one will be hydronic with radiators.  We may make another air-to-air as there has been a lot of interest in it too.

We've been too busy to pursue the grinder, but I hope that changes soon.  I want to get it back to KY so I can work on it after hours. 

And yes, we're thinking about a machine that will do both the slab and floor sweepings / chips.  If you look close at the video you can see the hopper that is supposed to handle the small chips.  To my knowledge they haven't tried chips or sweepings yet.  I like the idea of chips also because you can store them in large piles (wet) and grind when needed and then store it to dry.

I guess the big question is how productive does it really have to be and how much money are people willing to pay for it?  If dust requirements are 5-10 lbs an hour, how much do we need to design for and at what price?  I agree that it would be nice to handle all the slabs from the operation on a daily basis, but i'm afraid the hp requirement is going to be prohibitive.

Any thoughts from you guys?

Here's another idea we've been kicking around - maybe it needs its own thread though...

Ethanol - the primary reason it isn't a viable project without subsidies is because of cost of heat required.  I'm sure these numbers can be debated, but generally it takes 1 gallon of gas to make 1.3 gallons of ethanol.  Gas has a BTU value of 131000 BTU/gal and Ethanol is 77000 BTU/gal.  There is a net loss of 54000 BTU/gal per gallon of Ethanol produced.  Also required is the crushed corn and 4 gallons of water.  It's pretty easy to see why it can be hard to justify making it - thus all the debate over it's virtues.

I'm using the following info to base our new ideas on:

- One acre of a corn yields approx 3.5 tons of grain AND 3.5 tons of stover (stalk, leaf, cob, shank, and husk).
- An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol.
- 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol
- the BTU value of 3.5 tons of stover at 7000 BTUs/lb is 49,000,000 BTU's (ash content is higher than sawdust so the heat value/lb is less)
- 42,968,000 BTUs are required to convert the one acre of corn to ethanol
- if you ran the still 24/7 the heat requirement is 60,000 BTU/hr/acre

What if -

- There was a burner that would burn Bio-dust efficiently to use as your heat source instead of gas?    ;)
- You had enough stover from your harvest to produce the required heat for distillation? (and then some)
- There was a small still option sized to match the heat output of the burner available (150,000 or 1 million) BTUfor making your own ethanol?

A 150,000 BTU burner could handle 24+ acres/year and a 1,000,000 BTU burner could handle over 175 acres.  In both cases, a lot of the condensation heat is recoverable for other applications.  The potential production is 7872 gallons and 57,400 gallons respectively.  I don't know what ethanol is selling for, but it appears there is another economic engine waiting to start here.

Of course I may be missing something, and if I am I'm sure I'm about to be corrected.  Any debate here?

Will you be able to produce ethanol dry enough for fuel use?  I am not sure what ethanol production involves.  Sounds like another great idea you have here. 

I have to say I love your generator idea too.  Hope you can make that one work.

Farmerdoug

I dont see why it cant work - no laws of physics are being broken.

You should be able to recover a lot of the heat from the condensing part of the process and the waste wort and use it to preheat the next batch into the still. Even if you only recover 1/2 the energy it still makes your numbers a whole heap better.

The quality of the ethanol produced (dryness and other factors) depends on the design of the distillation tower, a taller tower with more surface area should give a purer end product. My simple still only produces about 70% alc, but a better design and running the product through twice can achieve 98% purity. The 70% is fine if you are going to water it down into vodka, but you will want the 98% for running your vehicle on.

Note.. running a still for personal use is legal in NZ (just dont get caught selling the stuff)

Cheers

Ian

According to the guy I'm working with, molecular sieves with 4 angstrom pore size which absorb water, but not ethanol will be required to get the last 5% or so.  They can be be dried out using hot air and reused. 

Looking forward to working on this little project too.

I'm no economist but as we gear up ethanol we are driving up costs in unforseen ways.
Look at the products in the grocery store that don't contain corn in one form or another. Put both products in a basket then look at the rest of the store, do we want to drive up the cost of all those products? Do we want Chinese milk at breakfast? There is other energy around but we tend to pick the low fruit. (edit) I think we can safely call all that one person's opinion  :)

Can a transport grade liquid fuel be produced from and by wood waste using the heat from the biomizer? Could it pyrolize and then condense gasses from say rough chopped slabs and yield lump charcoal and liquid fuel? Not even sure any of that works, a blissful ignorance of the chemistry involved.

I guess I am a little amused at the concern shown for the higher corn prices. At one point in the early '70s corn was $3.00 per bushel.  This time of year two years ago corn was about $1.98.  Locally this week corn was $3.35.  Now, tell me again ethanol has pushed the price of corn too high.  The cattle industry particuarly utilizes the by products from ethanol plants as feed, resulting in lower feed costs. Hogs and poultry can't utilize it as well, but research is being done in that direction.  Food is an afterthought for most Americans.  We expect it to be there, and we want it cheap, so we can spend our money on our toys.  Far as I am concerned it won't hurt us to spend a little on food and a little less on cars, boats, big houses  and swiming pools.

There was an interesting story about the premise that higher corn prices caused higher prices at the store. Turns out that the biggest culprit behind higher food prices was higher energy costs and higher labor costs. So as a hobby farmer I think all you guys should decrease your wages just as much as you'd like me to decrease the price I get for corn. :D

What I really want to know is if this burner is going to be on sale in time for the heating season this year?

Everyone is concerned with corn, yet, it's one of the worst crops for alcohol production  ::) ??? ???

Sorry guys, didn't mean to sidetrack a great thread. Obviously you all have given it more thought than me. Lets burn more dust  :)

Quote from: Norm on August 26, 2007, 07:49:51 AM
There was an interesting story about the premise that higher corn prices caused higher prices at the store. Turns out that the biggest culprit behind higher food prices was higher energy costs and higher labor costs. So as a hobby farmer I think all you guys should decrease your wages just as much as you'd like me to decrease the price I get for corn. :D

What I really want to know is if this burner is going to be on sale in time for the heating season this year?

Norm,

We're going to release approx 25 units for testing this year.  Those who have signed up with us are going to receive a lottery type application for those who want to be part of the test program.  We've just hired a gal who starts tomorrow, and this is the first job on her list. 

We're staying true to the plan of only releasing the product when we know it is ready, and we can't do that until we've been through one winter of testing.

We're going to build a couple of pilot units in September and start building 2/week in November.  If all goes like it looks like it is going to we can possibly speed things up.

Don,

I have a lot to learn yet, but I understand the technology for breaking down wood products and grasses into alcohol is still not as efficient as making ethanol with corn.  There is a lot of research into making bacteria to break these products down, but it obviously isn't ready for the mainstream yet.  One known concern is the bacteria could be released into the ground and wreak havoc on crops. 

I also wonder what this technology is going to do to the guys that currently use dust and chips that are used to getting it at $0-20/ton.  If we generate a market for the same fuel at $100/ton or more, there is going to be a shift in the economic landscape.  This includes the corn market or any other market that is part of the alternative energy scheme.

Ultimately economy drives us all.  We will all tend to migrate toward the cheapest solution or one that makes us money. 

Thanks bioman. I understand needing a complete winter of testing to iron out any kinks. I'll just keep growing my stash of sawdust until their released.

Don I wasn't meaning to give you a hard time it's just that I'm a little protective of our main industry here. Keep in mind I don't think I've ever given anything a lot of thought. Why just today while backing my big mower into the dogs kennel to mow Patty asked if I was aware of the wire in there. Jeez hunny I know right where we buried the new power line, quit mothering me. Moments later I hit the bundle of overhead wire the electricians had hid in the weeds after taking it down.

Her look said it all. :D

What do ya mean signed up, is that everyone that has inquired, or signed something at one of the shows? I inquired about one way back, I knew about the burner before the news was released,I am still very interested in the burner, and would like to be in the drawing to test one.

Signed up means your name is in the Bio-Mizer database (not to be confused with the large Wood-Mizer mailing list).  Unless you signed up at a show, called in or signed up via the web, you are probably not on the list.

Hi Norm,
No problems, I had been tuned in to public radio earlier in the day, the latest influence on my "deep thinking" at that moment. I'll have a whole other opinion by tomorrow morning  :D

My comment on charcoal making with it was just a thought based on the comments about idle time inefficiency in one potential setup, it could give it something to do when a kiln isn't calling for heat, and something to do with slabs. If the woodgas from that operation could be used also then its one more recovery. I was hoping there is a way to "bottle" it but I've got my doubts. I'm not sure where methanol, rather than cellulosic ethanol, comes from though?

Don, check out the Bio-Max link in this forum.  This machine does what you are describing. 

Right now there is a vast amount of excess sawdust from small scale mills.  There is a vast amount of slabs that are looking for a home and could be reduced to sawdust.
In Ok, there is a vast amount of cedar that landowners pay to have removed and burned.  We take a small part of that and make mulch.  Instead of landowners paying to have the trees pushed and burned, we take for free and grind for mulch thus saving the landowners a good bit of money.
So I don't believe the price of sawdust will go up substantially in the short term because there is so much of it.  Even if the price doubles, it is still a bargain fuel.  But at doubling the mill owners will smile because of the extra jingle in there pocket.  If one mill owner gets greedy, there are still others that need to get rid of theirs. Same with cedar, some wanted us to pay for their downed trees.  We just went to the next one on a long list and the first guy had to pay to get rid of what we would have done for free. 
We are seeing capitalism work its magic.

Cedarman,

It's worth mentioning that we ran some mulch like you make through the 1000000 BTU machine last week.  It handled it and burned it without problem.  We'll run a longer test when dig up some more in the back lot (we sold our rotochopper and replaced it with a precision chipper so we don't make mulch any longer).  Chips will be tested this week. 

Bioman,

Sir, how does one check to see if they are officially signed up ?

Warren

I called in, sure hope I'm on the list.

Warren, I checked and your name is on the list.

WH, your name is on the list also.

Bioman,

Have you guys ground up some pressed wood for fuel for the burner?  Just thinking about the large amount of pressed wood I see dumped every day.  Since it is sawdust to begin with it should process easily.

Farmerdoug

No, but I'm positive it would work well.  The glue adds BTUs. 

We're getting closer....I'll be posting illustrations of the latest design soon.   

Bioman,  Thank you for checking and confirming....   Warren

Bioman,  Do you suppose one of the bigger units could be adapted to grain drying? ???  I don't know how many btu's per hour one uses, but maybe I can find out.

I'm sure it can.  I don't know what kind of BTUs are required though.  It would be another application where a farmer could use his dry waste to dry his own grain. 

Anyone out there know how big these dryers are?

I had a suggestion from ElectricAl that we bring the prototype grinder to the show in Indy.  I think it's a good idea.  Those of you who are going to attend the mini seminar on the Bio-Mizer will have a chance to share ideas on where the grinder project.  I'll make sure we can power it up and play with it at the seminar.

I think I am on the list too. I could not find any info on it on the BioMizer website.

I wondered if there are requirements which must be met in order to become one of the 25.

Kevjay,

The info you sent via the contact form will take care of it.

As far as the test units go, we're looking for a wide variety of applications, weather conditions, mechanical aptitude of the customer and that sort of thing.  We don't expect problems, but in case there are changes necessary we need to pick people who want to work with us to refine a product, not complain if there are issues that need improvement. 

Wood-Mizer will stand behind any of the burners we put in the field until they are right or we'll take them back with full refund.

On the grain dryers, I am seeing from 2 to 6 million btu/hour :o  That is just based on a quick google search of a couple of manufacturers.

Thanks Bioman.

I haven't had to many people ask about grain drying.  Maybe it's because of the 1 million limitation.  I still have to wonder what the real opportunity is if every acre of corn yields 49 million btu's of heat from waste.  I'm sure someone will try out the concept on a small scale sooner or later.

I thought I'd pass on the results of a short test we did today.  We've been emphasizing Bio-Dust burning only, but we tried wet chips in the Industrial unit today with good results.  This unit has a stirring assembly that we can run all the time (independant of the ash auger).  Stirring the chips while burning seems to work well.

I don't know how it will start on chips or if we will have smoke issues when we turn off the unit because of the unburnt chips on the floor.  We'll test more, but it look very promising for burning chips.

We know we can't do it with the little machine due to smoke between cycles.

Course you might have a certain claintele (sp) that don't care about "start up" smoke.

Bioman, I know that you have to look at the big picture around the country, you have my sympathy, but most of  the people here are in a position of a "little" smoke woulden't be a problem.

Course a little smoke to me is lighting up a month's worth of slabs ;D. Party time. :D

Yeah, you're right.  I'm just a bit hyper-focused on the EPA issue and wanting to claim the 'no smoke' prize.  It's good to be tempered by reality once in awhile. ;)

We've been busy building the first pilot domestic burner.  We're also in the final stages of building the new modular fuel bin.  It looks really good too. 

All is still going well....

BioMan, I know 'all are busy working out the finer details of clean-heat production, along with reducing slabs to dust, and all the mechanical details there-in. I am wondering about the cogenerator side of it. I read some posts back that it would likely be DC, but no mention has been made of  how this is accomplished. The only thing I can come up with is steam turning a small turbine, perhaps of a Pelton wheel type. However, in that your main goal is producing heated water (or air) for transfer to a home or shop heating system, will you be creating water hot enough to generate the amount of steam required to spin this turbine?  I have seen a 40 amp DC generator driven by a small single-cylinder steam engine. While it was wonderful from an engineering standpoint, it lacked the power to re-charge high capacity battery banks.   Can you enlighten us on the type of system you had envisioned? 

I hadn't originally planned on attending any of the 25th Anniversary shows, but I'm coming to Indy with an empty truck, just in case  ;D

Greg Cook

Kind of like the sawdust burner, we plan on using proven technology and repackaging it.  No sense in reinventing the wheel....

I'll give this much to think about - there is one type of heat pump technology that can be converted to a motor by running it backwards.  The device is readily available, and our bench testing says that we can generate the hp required to run a 5kw generator (producing DC) with the 150,000 BTU burner.   Like the burner, it's the packaging of the technology that is the challenge.  Others have tried similar approaches, but they haven't come up with the right combination yet.  We think we have. ;) - time will tell.

I'm still pushing our team extremely hard to get the two burners ready for the test release.   smiley_whip  When this phase is complete, I will be shifting our primary new product engineering efforts to the cogen project (and the ethanol generator, and the Bio-Dust grinder, and the dust dryer, and the dust bagger, and the dust screen system, and the modular fuel systems, and the........)   smile_juggle

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone asked the questions about using the heat output to drive a Sterling Engine.  There is A LOT of info over at the Sterling Engine Society of USA (http://www.sesusa.org/index.html).  I had the opportunity to work with one on a solar application at the Pentagon.  It was rated for 25 KW.

Bruce

Yes, we spent millions trying to make Stirling technology work at the 1 kw output range.  We finally gave up on it.  There are a lot of others working on as we speak.  One company in Germany is making a unit fired by pellets and have been saying it would be out this year.  I have a brochure on it.  So far, no luck with them either.  Our work was done under license with Sunpower (http://www.sunpower.com/).

The tolerances required in this technology (and a number of other issues) make it difficult to produce in a cost effective manner.  Larger engines are easier to manufacture, but they are cost prohibitive to the common user.

During our time working on the Stirling engine project, we also worked on a burner that would supply the heat required.  The unit we were working on at the time was a gasifier that burned multiple fuels at 2300 F.  At those temperatures nothing lasts long.  It was during this time we developed some expertise in the field of burning and handling of biomass.

Stirling engines are a big part of our history and why the Bio-Mizer exists.

Bioman,

A couple thoughts from my experience in the worlds of computer software and automotive manufacturing....

1) Perfection is never cost justified.  If you have a unit that is thoroughly reliable and provides the stated heat output, a little smoke on start up won't hurt the majority of intended users.  What you perceive as a negative may well be a non-issue for the majority of your target audience.  That is not to say that you don't continue to refine the unit to further minimize smoke.  But it's time to get the unit out there and get some real world experience.  Also time to start generating some ROI on the monies invested to date.

2) If you putter around too much longer, without getting a unit out on the market, someone else will beat you to it.  And in many cases the first one to market wins.   Once you have a stake in the sand, you can work on refining.  But if you miss the first strike, you may forever be playing catch up.   

The computer term is analysis paralysis.  The first LT sawmill was not perfect.  But WM kept refining it.  Compare today's mills to those of 20 + years ago. No comparison.  Same thought pattern applies to the BioBurner.  Gotta take the first step....

End of soap box....

Warren

Again, you're right.  We also are aware of the issue and have fought it during all of our design cycles. In this case, it takes a year or more to conceive, design, test and do the manufacturing engineering to get a product of this complexity ready for ANY kind of release.  We've tried to speed up the process by applying the resources of 9 people and alot of ancillary support from the rest of WM to shorten the cycle.  It's never fast enough.......

I can tell you this.  The product is being released in the next 6 weeks or so.  The latest design changes on the domestic unit are of necessity for cost cutting, manufacturability and safety.  Future improvements will be an ongoing thing.

The industrial unit will ship to the first customer within two weeks.  The company we're shipping to is going to use the burner to dry pallets using 1,000,000 BTU's 24/7/365.  This is going to be a good test.  We do know of several changes we want to make to reduce costs, but it's going out the door....... 8)

I do appreciate the candid feedback.  One of the reasons the CEO told us to start showing this product before we normally would in the design cycle was for exactly this reason - feedback and pressure from the market to keep it moving - we knew we were exposing ourselves to the risk of 'spilling the beans' but figured we'd still get there first.

It's funny you bring that up.  I was on the East Coast yesterday visiting a gentlemen who is dealing with the issue you describe.  He's making a machine he calls a Vortex Grinder.  Put material and a LOT of compressed air in a vortex and the material basically explodes and comes out as dry dust.  It won't work for us, but it was interesting to see.  Like a lot of inventors, he's struggling with the design release issue.  Nine years, a lot of money and still no defined or marketable product :'(

This thread gets more interesting all the time.  8)

Quote from: Bioman on September 04, 2007, 11:03:02 PM
I'm still pushing our team extremely hard to get the two burners ready for the test release.   smiley_whip 

:D ;)

We made he decision today to delay the test release out of fairness to the people attending the Indy 25th anniversary event.  With over 1000 people attending and a lot of them interested in the burner, we think it is the right thing to let them have an opportunity to be one of participants in the first test release program.

Those of you on the list will be receiving a postcard or short letter to this affect.  The website will also be the first place we post the 'lottery letter', so watch for it there too.   

All is still good......just never fast enough.

Bioman, 

Are you going to have them ready to go by then?  Just thinking ahead of installation in the cold.  No problem on waiting as long as all of the testers are from the Forum. ::) ;)  Just kidding.

Looking forward to seeing the burner at Indy.  No matter who tests it, I hope they are available by next fall for market.  I think this will work out great.  I see another possible hit for Woodmizer.

Farmerdoug

The plan is to have a couple ready by the show.  If they are ready, that means we'll have tooling done and ready to build more.  We're going to release about 20 of them this year.

Well here we go. ::)



The Forestry Forum CRASH OF 2007 ARCHIVES
General Forestry => Alternative Methods and Solutions => Topic started by: farmerdoug on September 16, 2007, 03:41:39 PM


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Title: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 16, 2007, 03:41:39 PM
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Biomizer now has bio-dust bags for storing sawdust that allows the sawdust to dry in the bag.  I believe they are $0.45 each. 

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Stew (Radar67) on September 16, 2007, 03:44:28 PM
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How much do they hold and where can you get them? The website?



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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 16, 2007, 04:06:41 PM
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Not sure on the size but it is mentioned by Bioman on their forum.

http://www.biomizerforum.com/index.php (http://www.biomizerforum.com/index.php)

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 16, 2007, 04:23:18 PM
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Bioman is out west but said he would check in tonight or tomorrow.

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 16, 2007, 10:57:56 PM
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Bioman,  A question on fuels for the Bio-Mizer.  How about hay?  I can get big round bales of about a thousand lbs for $25 around here.  I wonder if you have tried hay in your burner yet?

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 17, 2007, 03:36:05 PM
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I haven't burnt hay, but I have burnt straw.  I'm sure it would work fine if you send it through a hammermill.



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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 17, 2007, 03:37:18 PM
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I'm going to start the price on the bags @$.35 instead of $.45.  They can be used several times as they are tied and not sewn after filling.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Furby on September 17, 2007, 03:38:54 PM
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Are these the same bags that were at the pig roast?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Stew (Radar67) on September 17, 2007, 03:43:13 PM
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What is the capacity of the bags?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 17, 2007, 05:17:46 PM
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The bags at the show were 19 x 35.  The bags we are going to sell are 19 x 36.

Each bag will hold approx 15-20 lbs or air dried sawdust.

You will burn approx 6-7 bags of dust per day in the winter (average of 100 gals or 120 lbs/day).

The bags are meant to be tied and not sewn.  They can be used several times.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Stew (Radar67) on September 17, 2007, 05:20:56 PM
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Are you bringing plenty of them to Moultrie?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 17, 2007, 09:07:32 PM
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I'll be bringing 1000 of them to Indy.  We have 10,000 more coming for distribution to branches and sales.  We're going to give out sample bags and sell to those who want them in volume.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Dan_Shade on September 18, 2007, 09:28:14 AM
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the more I read about this biomizer, the more I want one....


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 18, 2007, 11:32:43 AM
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I wish you could be at our end of things to sense the excitment.

I told the guys it would be cool if we could actually have the first one for sale at the WM show.  I think it is possible.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 18, 2007, 01:56:10 PM
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Maybe with all of the interest you should auction it off.  ;) Afterall number one only comes once. 8) 8) 8)

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 18, 2007, 03:29:19 PM
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Fun idea.  If we can pull it off we may just do that.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: MikeH on September 18, 2007, 10:00:36 PM
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Does the Biomizer work with wet sawdust fresh off saw?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 18, 2007, 10:21:06 PM
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Only the industrial burner uses it fresh from the saw.  A small amount of air drying of the sawdust is required if using the domestic unit.  We routinely burn 45% moisture, but we recommend 30% for efficiency.  In any case dry dust is best.  Dry dust burns hotter and you burn a lot less.  It's amazing how much dust is used to burn off water.   :o

It doesn't take much to dry the dust to the 30% range.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: LT40HDD51 on September 24, 2007, 10:33:36 AM
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Any new updates on the slab grinder?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 24, 2007, 02:24:34 PM
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They tore the first prototype down and are building Revision 2.  I hope to have something at the show in Indy.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: ElectricAl on September 24, 2007, 10:21:43 PM
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So what really happens when sawdust right off the mill is used?
Just use more?



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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 25, 2007, 09:40:43 AM
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The original small burner prototypes struggle to burn hot enough to keep the combustion temperature high enough to sustain burning.  The evaporation process cools the chamber and the end result is a flame out. 

Now, with that said, we have made modifications to the newest revision.  The chamber is slightly bigger, and we made modifications to the 'secret component' that has improved the capabilities of the machine.  I was running the machine at over 150,000 BTU output (continuous) yesterday on fuel that is probably in the 50% range.  We bagged the fuel Friday and it sat tightly packed in a kiln for three days.  The bags were still heavy, so I know there was still a lot of water in it.  I'll oven dry a sample today.

If my educated guess is right, we can burn the wet fuel.  However, it does take a little longer to start, and you have to run it at full speed to keep it going.  The safety limits built into the machine will handle overtemps etc.  If the machine cools down to far, you may have to run a few more seconds of propane to relight wet fuel vs dry fuel.

Sorry for the long answer.  The short version is - 'yes'.

I'll test wet fuel after the current fuel bin is emptied out.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 25, 2007, 09:42:26 AM
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Grinder update -

The engineering group in Indy is joining the competition.  They have already tested on unit and have moved on the another revision.  I am pushing to have a prototype of some kind at the show.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: ElectricAl on September 25, 2007, 08:05:16 PM
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We blow our sawdust 100' through a 6" line. Our plan is to place the BioMizer approx. 75' down stream. The blower tube already goes over head in this area. We'll add a drop line directly into the 100 gallon tank. When the tank is full the sawdust will blow past the BioMizer to a wagon. 


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 25, 2007, 08:39:30 PM
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Are you going to use a boiler or air-to-air?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 25, 2007, 08:50:08 PM
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Bioman, 

I remember that you working on drying the sawdust.  Have you come up with anything yet?

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 26, 2007, 10:18:39 AM
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Haven't had the resource to work on it yet.  We're drying bags in our hot water container kiln for now. 


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 26, 2007, 10:25:27 AM
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The sawdust we burned yesterday was 40%.  I let it run out and reloaded with fresh dust and haven't been able to start up on the wet dust successfully.   :(

There is still hope though....I've been doing these tests on an older prototype.  The new one has a slightly larger combustion chamber that should raise the threshold.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on September 26, 2007, 10:32:05 AM
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While reading the sawdust collecting thread I had thought.  I know that can be dangerous I know.

What if you designed a dust transfer system with a hopper to feed it and a cyclone collector on the other end.  Then you feed the air to the blower through a heat exchanger from the boiler.  The heated air would remove moisture from the sawdust while it is fed from the hopper to the cyclone.  If this is clear as mud let me know. roll_eyes :D

Farmerdoug




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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 26, 2007, 11:49:57 AM
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Actually, we tried to figure out how to do that on a small scale so you can 'dry on the fly'.  Haven't had enough time to chase it so far.  I imagine the solution will present itself during the evolution of this project.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: ElectricAl on September 26, 2007, 08:47:19 PM
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BioMan,

We plan on a boiler style. The Saw Shop is 40x80 and is all radiant. This system will be the easiest to hook up to. It uses water and percentage timers to trigger pumps for 2 minutes on and 30 minutes off to guarantee the lines do not to freeze. All the lines are insulated, but we're not taking any chances. The thermostat functions as normal during off time.
The other system consists of a 4000' conventional hot water kiln and 2 separate wood shops.
This system has antifreeze in it.
The biggest problem is both systems are 200' apart.
Time will tell if they get tied together.

We had an idea on how the "Dry on the Fly".
The thought was to blow warm air up the transfer tube.
Using a standard size auger and tube to meter the product from the hopper. Then enter a tube twice the size with a nylon bristle auger. The larger auger and tube will allow air flow and agitation.


We did an oven dry test on Walnut sawdust that had gone through our 100' blower tube and came up with 75%.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 27, 2007, 09:53:13 PM
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Sounds like you have nice systems there. 

I don't know for sure but I think walnut is nominally 60-80% moisture in the log.  How warm was the air you were using?  I'm guessing you need more temp to make a bigger difference. 

A system like you describe would be nice if we can get the right amount of air to achieve the drying we need. 


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 27, 2007, 11:04:02 PM
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We tested 'dirty' chips in the 1,000,000 BTU burner today with great results.  It looks like we'll be able to burn more than Bio-Dust in this machine.  The only problem we had was the large pieces hanging up in the 6" auger.  (I'm talking pieces that were up to 2' long  :o).  Clean chips wouldn't be a problem at all.  We'll try some mulch from a RotoChopper tomorrow.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: ElectricAl on September 28, 2007, 09:19:07 PM
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Quote
How warm was the air you were using?

Our dust blower just draws ambient air. There is some heat generated by the sawing process. Quite hot at times right off the saw. But even that burn your hand hot sawdust cools considerably by the time it travels 100'. I would guess we're knocking 5% MC out going though the system.

It sounds like 75% may be a problem for the standard BioMizer.

From a previous post
We had an idea on how the "Dry on the Fly".
The thought was to blow warm air up the transfer tube.
Using a standard size auger and tube to meter the product from the hopper. Then enter a tube twice the size with a nylon bristle auger. The larger auger and tube will allow air flow and agitation.



Quote
A system like you describe would be nice if we can get the right amount of air to achieve the drying we need.

Our thought was if the brush auger turned slow enough that 180 degree air could remove 25%.
It really would not take very many CFM if the temp was high enough.
It's the same as kiln drying, the hotter it is the faster things happen.


Just another idea for the R&D team :o


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on September 29, 2007, 09:56:54 AM
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The heat created by sawing gets used up quickly with evaporation.  Adding warm air and agitating the material as you suggest should make a big difference. 

We would have a problem with 75% on the small machine.  I'm trying to push the threshold up to 60%.  I'm not sure how much higher we can go with the combustion chamber we are using today.  I'm sure we can increase the size of the chamber to get there, but that will have to be at a later date.  We have to stay on the current path for now. 

We are adding more resources to our engineering group to speed up the evolution of the project.  We just hired a chemical engineer to research the ethanol opportunity.  He's working with us in KY to get up to speed on everything during this period that we're getting ready for the pilot release and show in Indy.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: cook37184 on October 01, 2007, 01:28:11 PM
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GO, Bioman, GO!
Guys, seems as long as we keep ideas churning, they'll keep researching!  It seems like there's a lot of us out here slobbering on our boots waiting for a chance at these burners.  Then, of course, we are not able to leave well enough alone, so think of the mods that are gonna pop up after we get to run one for a while.

As for the "dry-on-the-fly" system, why not a small copper coil inside the blower pipe to warm the air before it picks up the sawdust?

Greg Cook


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 05, 2007, 06:02:54 PM
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Grinder update -

The guys in Indy submitted a video of their first POC (proof of concept).  In the original thread and at several shows we've had the suggestion to stack cheap 7 1/4" carbide blade to make a cutting head.  The blades in this video are set up to wobble like a dado blade. 

They're going to clean it up and have it at the show next weekend. 

I don't know if this code will embed the video here or not.  If it doesn't work and you want to see it do a search on Bio-Dust at www.youtube.com.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f81vHvSLxpc"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f81vHvSLxpc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 05, 2007, 06:04:01 PM
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It looks like I need to do some homework on how to embed a video...


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: beenthere on October 05, 2007, 06:24:15 PM
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Bioman
It sure makes dust...need to dub in the music from the video "dust in the wind" that came up along with Bio-dust search on youtube.  ;D ;D

Was the quality of the dust about what you wanted? appeared to be pretty fine, but that may have been just the extra fine dust coming from the grinder..


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 05, 2007, 06:31:30 PM
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I haven't seen it yet.  They sent me the video to review, so you viewed it few hours after I did.  I'll try to get the engineer that is working on it to sign in and engage in this group.

I'd say the dust was about right.  Not bad for a POC 3hp machine.

We're still busy getting ready for the show. 

We're pretty sure we're going to auction the first machine off at the Indy shindig.  The first one will be equipped with the $1000+ touch screen  We'll also be recognizing this person with a special jacket, certificate, etc.  Still trying to figure out the detail of getting it back some day for the museum....We had to trade a new mill for the first one bought by Mr Bistrovich.




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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: beenthere on October 05, 2007, 06:34:22 PM
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Only attendees at the WM 25th able to bid? (and I'm not bidding... ;D )


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Dan_Shade on October 05, 2007, 06:35:16 PM
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is this the video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/wW2GC_wFkaM


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 05, 2007, 06:40:43 PM
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Yes.  I tried to look it up on youtube and couldn't find it for some reason.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: beenthere on October 05, 2007, 06:45:52 PM
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That is not the one I found when searching, but it is next to it (see the others at the end along the bottom). This one shows the dust pile building up. The other shows the dust..in the air. :)

Is the board dry?  mc?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 05, 2007, 06:49:57 PM
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I don't know.  I'm guessing fresh poplar - they saw alot of it in the Wood-Products building.  It could be dry wood from the molding shop though.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: LT40HDD51 on October 06, 2007, 01:16:27 PM
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Looks like he had to push fairly hard to feed it? I guess you will play with different pitches and hook angles etc. with the blades...

Are the tolerances close enough in there to load the hopper with chips?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 06, 2007, 08:11:58 PM
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They said there would have to be a feeder.  To much clearance for chips on the prototype.  I asked him to see if he could tighten it up and try it.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: LT40HDD51 on October 08, 2007, 11:40:00 AM
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I think we were talking about that before the crash. It would be great if I could put slabs and edgings (edgings are a real pain in the butt to handle) through our big chipper and into a large hopper feeding into a grinder like that. Half hour of chipping could keep it busy for a while all by itself. We got an old 12" Asplundh unit from a tree service company for $800, probably lots of them around. With a 6 cyl. Ford, it takes care of a days worth of slabs in a hurry...

Not to mention the tree service guys usually have a huge heap of chips piling up somewhere. Im sure I could get the boys to drop off truckloads if I could process them...

Another thing I wondered about the other day is construction scraps. Building stuff creates a pile of small, odd-shaped wood scraps that are a nuisance to get rid of. Could small pieces and chunks forseeably go in the hopper and be ground up?


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on October 08, 2007, 09:30:59 PM
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Bioman,

How about a picture of the first unit you are auctioning off?

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 09, 2007, 12:03:47 PM
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Farmerdoug,

I won't have a picture of the final project for a day or two.  There is a rendering of the unit on the biomizer forum.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 09, 2007, 06:44:09 PM
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We just tried something a little different with fuel mixtures.

We know the small machine has trouble burning wet fuel in the 60% range.....so we mixed a small amount of rubber shreds to see if it would make a difference.  The mixture ratio was light (didn't measure it), but the interesting thing is the fuel burned like it was under 30% MC with no smoke or smell.  If a mixture of rubber/sawdust were to sit around and dry out in the bag, the BTU value would simply go up with time.

The whole idea of mixed fuel grades is starting to look like a significant opportunity.

We've ordered a SO2 meter to check out emissions to know for sure if we're okay, but it sure looks good.


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: LT40HDD51 on October 15, 2007, 08:31:37 PM
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My brother and I have been discussing how we can (better) use a power source we already have running all day - our diesel edger........


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: beenthere on October 15, 2007, 09:05:48 PM
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Any update on the biomizer that was 'auctioned' off at the WM anniversary? 


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 15, 2007, 09:28:26 PM
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We didn't auction it.  The new burn chamber needs a 'tweak'.  It ran great, but we don't want to add the cost for the extra part we put in it to make it work so well.  We know that when we get the configuration just right we don't need the extra part we installed for the show.  Worst case is we add the part and maybe have to charge a couple extra dollars.  Adding the part makes it work better in all materials...

I'm thinking maybe we sell #1 on ebay instead......


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: farmerdoug on October 16, 2007, 06:10:45 PM
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Bioman,

It was great meeting you at the show. 8) 8) 8)

You guys sure know how to throw a party. ;D

When are you guys putting out the lottery letter?

I will be talking to you via phone again soon.

Farmerdoug


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Title: Re: Biomizer
Post by: Bioman on October 17, 2007, 09:30:37 AM
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The bulk mailing to announce the procedure goes out this week and the web signup will be available next week.

That worked great and quick. 8) 8) 8)

Farmerdoug

These photos are from the WM 25th anniversary show.

Nice banner to get us started.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20Banner.JPG)


At the show was a working prototype BioGrinder. It uses a bunch of 7 1/4" blades stacked together to reduce edge trimmings to dust. The power source was a Yanmar single cylinder diesel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioGrinder%20Prototype.JPG)


The BioMizer display drew a good crowd all day. I had a chat with a young man from Pennsylvania who was Amish. He was quite interested in the machine for their pallet business. Later at the BioMizer Seminar he asked if the machine would be available in 12 volt DC. BioMan did not know if the controller could be built for 12 volt DC, however the Amish man was directed to the engineer working on the controls. I have not heard the answer yet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20display.JPG)

This photo of the display did not come out so good , but it was real nice ;)
There are 4 primary temperature displays. Water, Combustion, ? (oops), and flue. What was so nice about the system is each of the 4 could be ramped up and down using a touch screen. Also, the efficiency was evident when the combustion temperature was 1475 and the flue temperature was 425. :o
BioMan made a few quick changes to the system to make it cycle on and off.
Pretty neat, the dust re-ignited without any smoke or use of LP fuel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20operation%20display.JPG)

BioDust is stored in a 100 gallon poly tank.
This should last about a day in any average home.
So who does not have an average home smiley_wavy put your hand up with me :D
Anyway, the storage tank has an agitator in the bottom to keep the dust fluffy and feed it into the transfer auger.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20storage%20tank.JPG)

Power for the agitator and transfer auger comes from a little gear motor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20feed%20system.JPG)

Ash is automatically discharged from the BioMizer by an adjustable timer. At the show this nice metal can was used to collect a minimal amount of Ash.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%20ash%20auger.JPG)
This Biomizer was sporting a nice Camouflage sticker.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioMizer%40WM25th.JPG)

About 2 years ago I stacked about 9" worth of blades on my gang rip to take cull boards into sawdust for a product we sell.  The machine had a 15 horse electric motor and had enough power to take the 3/4 boards.  That was a lot of mass spinning round the shaft.  I couldn't get  things balanced just right and didn't spend too much time on it, but it did work.  I would love to experiment with the angle of feed, feed speed etc to make it work.

Al,

Thanks for the picture display.  The temperature with the ? is Ceramic temp.  We use a TC to measure the temp of the outer surface of the ceramic to know when the chamber is hot.  With this info we can tell the machine whether it needs to use gas for a re-ignite or not.

 Bio-man, I went to the bio-mizer site and asked about the dust grinder but haven't heard back. I'd really like to know more about your intentions on this. I'm wanting to make sawdust for animal bedding,and possibly start a market to utilize lowgrade wood.
Ed K

I just got the email a couple of hours ago.  We've made a few proof of concept versions (small scale) to see from which angle to approach the project.  What we are pretty sure of is that we are going to work on a grinder to reduce chips to dust and not slabs to dust.  The grinder project will be priority right behind the release of test units.  Until then, it is not our primary focus, but we understand the importance level of the project is huge.

Here's another product we've built and are testing.  Would there be any interest in a product like this if we were to release it? 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/Splitter2.jpg)

I thought I did it right.... :(  I'll try again.

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/Splitter2%7E0.jpg)

The log splitter is a horizontal/vertical unit.

How is this wood splitter an improvement over the run-of-the-mill units available now?  Any breakthrough's?  Has a trusted name on it... ;D

Are You gonna have a four way wedge on it?

Stonebroke

No breakthrough's.  Just a good quality log splitter worthy of the WM name.  

No 4-ways on this model.  You have to give up the Vertical mode with the 4-way design.  Cost goes up too.  We're just wondering about handling a standard splitter with the WM name.  If the basic unit was sellable we could move into the higher production machines later.

We did do some testing on a unit with a rotating wedge (turret style).  Cool but expensive.

keep the primary focus and try to make the secondary focus a slab eater  ;) :)

northern tool Note:Please read the Forestry Forum's postion on this company has a vertical splitter that has a four way. I would rather buy from you then them.

Stonebroke

The splitter market is fairly saturated.  The slab grinder market is wide open  ;)

I have the 4 way splitter from Northern and it works great.  I did have to weld on a guard to protect the motor.  If WM had one, I would have bought it from them.  The wedge guide (how yours attaches to the I beam) is a good idea.  That style is self cleaning verses the channel iron rail style.

What about more of a wood splitting system idea?  Additional conveyor, stand, anything that would go along with a wood splitter?

I really think you are going to cheapen the WM name if you start doing stuff like that.

I cant wait to buy a Woodmizer truck

I will have to agree with Furby on this.  Keep the name on the state of the art.

If you're going to start selling a wood-splitter, it better have some very special features. Otherwise it'll be just another brand-x to most of the public.

I've been splitting around 3 cords a year using a 6-lb splitting maul. I saw no point in buying a hydraulic splitter because it didn't save me any bending and lifting.

Now, make a wood splitter that'll let me maneuver a length of wood onto it without bending over, and then delivers the split pieces to me at waist height, and I'll reconsider ;D.

For the last couple of years I've been burning slabs -- I don't have time to split rounds anymore because I'm so busy sawing. It's easy enough to put a chainsaw through a strapped bundle of slabs to cut them to length, and it's definitely faster. But once again, lots of bending over to pick up the pieces, and now I end up with lots of chainsaw "dust" between the pieces. And man, does my chain take a beating sawing through all that bark :(.

So what about a "slab processor"? Throw a slab onto it, and get a bunch of pieces cut to length (and delivered at waste height).

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/BioGrinder%20Prototype.JPG)

I built the first fire in our free-standing wood stove yesterday evening.  I kindled it up with news print and kindling.  But when digging for starter I found we had a stack of used Styrofoam plates that were otherwise clean and dry.  The paper lit, it still wasn't progressing so I fed the Styrofoam plates in under the kindling one at a time.  I knew from experience that they burn about like petroleum.

Last night I was wondering about the BioGrinder.  I wondered if it would grind up things like telephone books, old catalogs, magazines, paper back books, and rolled up news papers.  I even got to wondering if it would grind up stiffer plastics like bottles or even PVC pipe.  And if so,  how would the mix of this material work in the BioMizer?

Quote from: Bioman on October 25, 2007, 05:46:03 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/Splitter2%7E0.jpg)

I called Mary over for a look see.  She says, "A splitter :-\ ?",   "Now, A slab shear we could use."

I'd think with about the same major components and amount of material you could design a slab shear and have a new market.  One most mill owners could use.

Hey Pro sawyer Mary makes a lot of sense. You guys should be able to build a slab shear in OH, say about 2 weeks ::) Make it stout enough to handle 5 inch branches and I could sure use one.

My Dad is in his mid eighties and keeps his fireplace going as soon as it cools off in the fall and stokes it till spring.  He has always cut and split his own wood until last year.  I hauled him some scraps from the mill and told him we would haul him all he wanted to just let us know when he was getting low.  The next week he said he thought he's get a wood splitter.  I told him I'd bring him some more stuff from the mill.  He said there were some down trees that he wanted to work up.  I told him my son Tom and I could chunk them up and burn them in our furnaces without splitting them.  Next week he said there was a sale coming up that had a wood splitter and he was going to it.  I told him if he didn't like the stuff from the mill that Tom and I could bring him wood from the tops that were whatever size he wanted when we got our wood.  He said no,  I'm going to get a wood splitter-----FIREWOOD SHOULD BE SPLIT!!!  He bought the wood splitter ;D

I wondered what kind of responses we would get on the splitter.   ???

FYI, the splitter was designed a couple of years ago with the intent of offering our branches and ASC's additional equipment to broaden their product offering.  The extra sales would also mean filling the gaps in production which ultimately reduces costs on everything.  The branch guys want it, but we made the choice not to sell based on the lack of margin in a 'me-too' product like a splitter.   

Just wondered what kind of reaction I'd get....you guys didn't disappoint.   :D

I also mentioned a turret style splitter.  Have you guys seen one of these?  This is what I was referring too when I said we lose the vertical option.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15246/turret%20style.JPG)

The picture is a bit small :(.  The unit has a turret on the back end that rotates.  There are a double, triple and quad splitters on the turret.  It takes only a couple of seconds to rotate the unit for different wedges.

Back to the thread - We've been busy wrapping up the burner for release.  Just changed the auger to a 2 1/2 (from 2) to make coarse fuels feed more consistantly - much better now :)

We have also been optimizing the combustion chamber to burn wetter wood.  I just checked the sample we were burning yesterday and it checked in at 95%  :o.  We could almost burn it, but not quite.  We've been getting rain for days here in KY and the logs were obviously fresh and wet.  We had a hard time picking up the sawdust bag it was so heavy.

Here's the question of the day then, how wet is wet?  It looks like we're approaching the ability to burn wet fuels in the 60-70% range.   If we can't burn the dust from logs that are above average in MC, where does that leave us?  Does an ability to burn 60% MC matter if there may be 75% or greater fuel coming at the burner?

We're still working solutions for a dry-on-the-fly concept too.  This would be the optimum for versitility, but there is cost involved.

I'm waiting for the latest set of ceramics to harden up for another test to burn the wet stuff.  I'll have answers on that tomorrow.

95% is real wet for dust that has not been rained on. 

Burning 40-60% stuff is nice but it requires support equipment and labor.
Dry on the Fly only requires a one time fee at the time of purchase.

So you were just teasing us with the wood splitter?

Stonebroke

Not necessarily.  The design is already done and it works well.  The guy testing it wouldn't be happy if I took it away from him.

I have the parts to make more and I'm considering a small release to determine real manufacturing costs.  I'd like to have a project like this to fill the gaps in manufacturing time.  I wouldn't have to apply full cost to a product like this if it can be built without adding manpower or overhead. 

The splitter and kiln parts are both products we could make and sell out of the Bio-Mizer group.

Bioman,

Why don't you post a copy of the lotto letter here for everyone.  I have seen it on your Forum. 8)

Farmerdoug

I'll have them do that tomorrow.

I'm headed down to the shop to check out the new ceramics.  Hopefully we'll be burning 'wet' wood in the small burner today....

Well, it looks like we may have figured it out.   8).  I won't claim that definitively until we've had a few more days test time.

I did a quick oven dry sample of the dust and it showed 70% moisture.  I was able to burn it well.  I didn't get a chance to start from cold on the wet dust, but it sure did well after the ceramics were warmed up. 

I may even have to tone down the changes we just made because it is too aggressive now....I'll let you try to figure out what that means.   :D

Have you created a little sawdust fission machine that now needs cooling ponds? ;)

I think I have an idea  ;D.

Did you catch my post in the crash archive about using a diesel edger as a powerplant for a grinder? Looks like about a 7hp diesel you had there? Seems like our edger isnt working very hard, even sawing squirrely 2" spruce or fir...

Bio man, just my thought on your splitter,

I dont believe that wood mizer selling a good quality wood splitter, even if it doesnt do anything special, would cheap'n the name. buying a splitter from someone I already know and trust would be a bonus. with the parts and tech support that comes from wm it would be an easy choice.

If it helps the branch guys out then all the better.

Man, do I feel like I am WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY behind the power curve on this one, but after about 3 hours of review, I figger that I got this Bio-Mizer thing fairly straight in my head, and as soon as the industrial version has the electricity generation attachment ready to go, I'll buy at least one, if not three.
I'm working on a partnership with a few municipalities in SOCAL that need a machine of this type, that can directly convert chips to power and heat, which ultimately powers the operation's electricity needs and heat for facilities and kilns.
Bioman, it appears that we're all in a similar position on this - we have something of an obligation to society to bring this to the world, and I believe that, because of our passion for what we do, success is just a matter of time.
Ideally, I need a unit that can take average sized chips produced from an average chipper used by tree companies, and do it's thing.
Using the heat to generate electricity as well as the heat source for dry kilns is as close to perfection as it gets.
Better than sliced bread!
Superdave

Update on the wet stuff - they did a cold start this morning with 50+% MC fuel.  Burning higher MC is not a problem after the unit is heated up.  We'll keep experimenting to figure out where the threshold is.

Superdave,

Welcome to the thread.   I agree we all have a responsiblity to use our resources wisely, and we're all hoping the Bio-Mizer technology is a step in the right direction toward achieving that goal.

As far as the cogen piece goes, we look at it like it's the Holy Grail of energy production.  Many have tried and failed to convert heat to mechanical energy at an economically viable micro level (ourselves included with the Stirling engine project we spent years working on).  We have yet to prove it, but I have confidence that we will find the right combination of technology to make it happen.

On that note, I can't remember if I updated this group but we have shifted our primary engineer over to the cogen project as of this week.  We want to have a working proof of concept machine by the end of the year......we'll see.

Gotta hit the road again.  Getting away from meetings and back to the playground  8).  I'll be checking in from KY tomorrow.

Bioman,

If you already spent several years on the sterling engine which appears was not economically viable at the micro level what can you do by the end of the year that will allow you to have a working proof of concept machine now by the end of the year?

Is there any way to develop a small steam engine to drive a generator while using the Biomizer to develop the steam. Hope that makes sense.

Ron

Great question.  It is those several years of experience while working on the Stirling engine that make us believe we can do this.  The idea we're pursuing was discussed at length before and agreed in hind sight that it is a better approach.

We're confident it is possible because we've bench tested the main component (motor) with success.  All of the technology is off-the-shelf stuff.  It's the packaging and cheap heat source that will make this work. 

We did look at a small steam engine.  We even bought one of Mr Browns 3 hp engines to play with.  Steam has too many inherent problems to make it viable in the market as we see it.

On the shear idea.....we built one several years ago and dropped the idea.  I don't remember all the reasons why (it was about 20 years ago).   I guess it would be worth another look.

Just a thought while I was driving home. 

First make the assumption that Bio-Mizer burners will be installed an running in the local area.

If I owned a tub grinder that could produce 15-20 tons/hr, I'd be working a deal to haul off and store the chips and ultimately become a fuel supplier.  I could probably charge less for the grinding service, haul the chips to a storage lot (can be stored without cover in chip form), the customer is happy because he got a deal and got rid of the mess and I would make some good money selling chips/dust.

I realize there are additional costs to move and store etc, but with corn and pellets at or above $300/ton already, it does make me think there may be a strong opportunity for fuel manufacturing and local distribution in the relatively near future.

I'm glad to see the stacked saw blades worked out.  I'm interested in the co-gen because my 120k Btu gasifier is itching to do something the 20 hours a day it doesn't need to run!
Ken

Without knowing all the physics involved in converting heat energy to electricity, I admit that I am somewhat at a loss.
However, I am sure that there's a way to do it that's cost effective as well as productive, and can be done in a cost efficient manner.
Any of our "redneck engineers" have a theory on how to do it?
Superdave

Quote from: treecyclers on October 30, 2007, 05:42:48 PM
Without knowing all the physics involved in converting heat energy to electricity, I admit that I am somewhat at a loss.
However, I am sure that there's a way to do it that's cost effective as well as productive, and can be done in a cost efficient manner.
Any of our "redneck engineers" have a theory on how to do it?
Superdave

Actually, some of the best minds in the world have been trying to figure out how to effectively turn heat into motion/power on a micro scale.  It's a race that is being run by several. 

Things just got REALLY interesting....

With all the recent changes we made to the machine we just found that we can burn chips in the burner.   8)

We grabbed some chips out of the chip trailer from our operation (it was mixed with some dust too).  The chips were fresh and wet.  The burn chamber was already hot, but it is pretty obvious we won't have any more difficulty with it vs burning the wet dust alone.

We did have some feed issues with the 2 1/2" auger.  The chips are 'dirty' which means they haven't been screened.  If we had a 3/4" -1" screen to run the material through we wouldn't have had any feed issues at all.  After hand screening the big pieces out it ran great. 

It looks like 'good' fuel might be a mixture of ALL wood waste sent through a chipper with a 3/4" screen.  Mixing the dust with the chips will actually be a good thing.  It also looks like we'll be able to burn a mixture like this fresh from the mill as long as it hasn't been rained on.

Oh how a few days can make a difference.....

Bioman

Great news!!

Would you be able to get has much heat out of the larger chips?

If you can burn bigger chips could one use a hammer mill on the farm to break down the lager chips.

Ron

Yes, it is still 8500 BTU's lb (dry).

We need to make a firm decision on how big of a chip we want to burn so we can size the auger.  I'm working on the model to convert up to a 3" auger which should handle all 'clean' chips.  Small hammermills or screen systems for anything larger will just have to be.

Our fuel potential from one shift of our mill went from 1 trailer load of fine dust to 6 loads of combined fuel per week (one shift).  All we have to do is add a screen and we're producing a good fuel mixture at the rate of 100-150 tons/week.

Since corn/pellets are already at the 300/ton rate, the 100/ton (even wet) is still a bargain.  Do the math.... 8)

Bioman,

If you are able to do with larger chips would there be a need for the small grinder that you have prototyped for making the dust?

Ron

Kinda looks like the grinder may be obsolete already.   :D

Quote from: Bioman on October 13, 1973, 01:07:07 PM




Since corn/pellets are already at the 300/ton rate, the 100/ton (even wet) is still a bargain.  Do the math.... 8)

This whole project is looking better all the time.  Are you saying chips are $100 a ton?
Down here the landowner gets 50 cents a ton. Maybe I need to forget the sawmill and buy a chipper :-\

I'm asking you guys to tell me where the math is wrong.  It sounds too good to be true.

If the cheapest biomass fuel available (other than firewood that you can collect yourself) is in the $300/ton range and climbing, doesn't that make chips or other forms of Bio-Dust a bargain at $100/ton - or even $200/ton?

Of course none of this works without Bio-Mizers in the field....

Bioman,

One question that I have and have not done any research is what is the btu output of the corn and wood pellets. I think one would need to look at it verses the wood chips.

If corn is $4.00 bushel and there is 56lb per bushel. I figure around  $150.00 a ton for corn. Am I missing something ?

Also how would the efficiency of each type of stove fit into the equation?

Ron

I'm comparing retail prices on the corn.  I checked the local Rural King and the price was $300/ton in 40/lb bags.

Farmers who grow it can get it for a lot less.  I have not checked Coop prices.  Pellets are in the same $300/ton price range

Pellets are in the same 8500 BTU's/lb range (dry).  Corn is similar.  Biomass stores 8500 BTU's per pound (average) dependant on ash content of the fuel.  I'm pretty sure there is less ash in wood dust (about 1% or less) than is in corn.  Conifer sawdust generally holds more BTU's/lb than the hardwood or corn.

We're haven't gotten to certified efficiencies, but we know based on flu temp that the efficiency is very good and certainly in the range of the high efficiency units out there.  I'm sure it is more efficient than the typical 'stick burner' being sold today.

Are the flue temps on the higher efficient units generally lower than on the less efficient models?

Flue temps are lower on higher efficiency models.  The theoretical max efficiency can be calced using the peak combustion chamber temp and the stack temp.

The cooler the gas is the harder it is to extract the heat from it in a useful form.

Ronwood

You can get it for that price all you have to do is buy tractor trailer (25 ton) loads.

Stonebroke

But are you really comparing apples to apples?
I have a hard time beliving you could sell a lot of bagged wood chips as fuel to get those prices.
Joe homeowner can go down to the rental place, rent a chipper and clean up his woods/backyard.
The folks buying the biomizer are folks that are going to have some working knowledge of this type of stuff.

Furby,

It is just like Joe homeowner renting a chainsaw and splitter for cutting his own firewood.  Or renting a sawmill to mill lumber.

If that was fully true then the firewood sellers would not be in the wood business.  You will have some of the owners being do it yourselfers but alot will by their fuel also.  On this forum I feel there is alot of do it yourselfers that is why we are so interested in this product and forum. 

Farmerdoug

Yes, but to get those prices, we are talking about buying pre bundled firewood at the box store or gas station.
Buying woodpellets, and bagged corn.
To be in that ball park, you'd have to bag the chips.
You don't have very many folks that have outdoor furnaces buying pre bundled firewood.
The woodstove and fireplace folks may go either way.
But the biomizer will be more along the lines of a outdoor wood furnace by way of sales, for the most part anyways.
So sales of material we are talking bulk prices and should be compared as such.

 NO NO the grinder can't go extinct.I want one to grind small w/pine logs into saw dust for an animal bedding nich.

Who uses dust for bedding?

Furby brings up good points.  The market will ultimately determine the price; however I believe the price is solidly locked to the price of the BTU's we buy.

At the end of the day, we all want the cheapest heat we can buy. 

Today people buy pellets and corn by the bag at a price of $300/ton and at 8500 BTU/lb.  What is so different about buying a bag of wood chips for fuel?  As long as it burns well and is the cheapest energy they can buy, won't they buy it? 

If you had a bag of 40 lb bag of pellets and a 40 lb bag of chips side by side in the store and one was half price for the same heat value, which you buy?

Furby,

I didn't finish my thought, sorry.

If retail market price for BTU's is $300/ton, isn't $100/ton bulk pricing?  Bagged price may need to be $150-200/ton.  That is still a bargain. ;)

Let's convert it a bit to a common measure, how many yards of chips, equals a ton?
That's how landscaping chips are sold and how most folks will compare it.

Here's your update on burning green chips and sawdust.

We built a small screen system with 1" round holes to screen chips.  We grabbed chips directly from the chip trailer and screened them.  We did a cold start that took only a few minutes to start.  The propane didn't even have to cycle a second time during the ignition process.  Here' what we found.

The auger needs to go up another size.  It ran, but you could tell it was boderline by the sounds it was making.

The auger needs to be slowed down a LOT when using chips.  The dense nature and relative slow burning of the chips means you have to turn down the feed rate or you end up with too much fuel in the pot.

Gasification of the chips takes awhile compared to dust.  The result is some mild smoke, but I don't believe it will be a problem.  The potential exists for smoke for a couple of minutes during the turned off mode.  Chips linger on the bottom for a short period of time whereas dust burns immediatly so there isn't smoke.

Fly ash will be more prevalent with chips.  We were running without the HX over the chamber so I don't know how much as will make it up the flue.

A mixture of both dust and chips will make a nice fuel.  In all cases though, dry fuel is still the most efficient to burn.  Plain old dry dust is the most controllable and cleanest to burn.

After this last bit of design work it's time to quit designing and start building and get these into the field.

Quote from: Bioman on April 06, 2007, 12:16:40 AM
So let's do some rough math

Nominal output is 100 yards an hour
Cost is $375 an hour to grind
Average moisture content - 40%
Wet weight is 450 lbs per cubic yard
Dry weight is 270 lbs per cubic yard

That means 27,000 lbs (13.5 tons) an hour of dry fuel
Cost is $28 a ton dry

Market price for pellets and corn is $200/ton
That leaves $72/ton to grind the fuel down to dust and sell it at 1/2 the price of corn and pellets.

Certainly looks like we are on the right side of the equation.....or did I miss something?

Furby, from an earlier post....

Yup, missed it in there, sorry.

As we are in the grinding business in Ok, we have a keen interest in the Biomizer. We can pump out 15 tons of fairly dry (20% guessing) material per hour.  To change sizes is just a matter of changing screens.  We have an other idea too.  Also, with this dry material, we could bag on site. Palletize, load flat beds.  This would lower transportation costs immensely. 

So, this begs the question. Bioman, did you get a chance to run the bagged mulch? And what was the MC?

Furby,

I see your point on the pricing.  Also right now TSC is selling wood pellets for 189/ton too.  But the market for the biomass is great at this point in the game.

Farmerdoug

Cedarman,

The mulch wouldn't feed properly so we didn't check the MC.  We did use up the wood flour though, it was good fuel.

Bioman,
What kind of processing would need to be done to the mulch to make it work?
How do you measure mc in your samples?  I have a small scales.  What are the calculations?
Cedarman

MC = ((wet - dry) / dry ) x 100

wet is wet weight
dry is oven-dry weight

If I follow the thread, seems a 3/4" screening of the material would be minimum processing. Bioman didn't say if they did that step before trying to burn your sample.

::) ::)

We used 1" screen for chips yesterday with good results.  We are upsizing the auger to handle the larger chips.

Quote from: Bioman on November 01, 2007, 08:52:08 AM
Cedarman,

The mulch wouldn't feed properly so we didn't check the MC.  We did use up the wood flour though, it was good fuel.

bioman
Did you screen his mulch, and to what size? ...
If not,  ::) ::) ???

We haven't screened it yet, but I will through the 1" holes.  I don't know what size of screen Cedarman used in his Rotochopper.

The grinder beats the wood into splinters rather than cutting it.  It makes great mulch because the splintery type material interlocks and does not blow or wash away.  For burning I would think this would cause some problem in material flow.  So a secondary processing may be needed.  The splinters tend to be about 2" long

I was consiering the same problem. Most of our sawdust/chip is produced off the Mahoe and it produces long thin chips, up to 100mm long. They would def need to be reprocessed before they could be effectively screened. Maybe a pass through a small ex tree service chipper??

DTR

Update:

We've been burning wet dust/chips without problem.  We resized the auger to 3" and material flows well.

Ideally, I'd like to mix our fines with chips through a 3/4" screen.  We produce about 150 tons of this type of mixture/week. 

We also tested some rice hull dust this morning.  This stuff is like talcum powder.  As you can imagine is pretty explosive and burns hot.  It was burning so hot it started melting the camo wrap on the hx that was sitting near the combustion chamber.  No other fuel has burned as hot as this stuff did.  Drawbacks to this fuel is the mess it creates when handling it and there is flyash with a fuel this fine.  No sign of slag or clinkers.

We've officially released the application for test sites on the biomizer forum. 

The last test results were  superb and the machine is running great.  We can burn wet fuel and chips up to 1".  We pushed the machine to max and got it it up to the 250,000 range and it played out because the pumps produce less flow at the 200+ degrees range.  If we had a different pump we would have reached the 250,000 output.  Efficiency goes way down when you pump that much heat through, so we're still only going to advertise 150,000 output.  We can confidently say the small burner produces at this rate of OUTPUT at high efficiency. 

We're shifting all of our resources to manufacturing of the test burners at this point.   :)

I quickly read the application info and noted a 6000$ discount to those chosen... What is the actual cost to be a tester?

The test machines are selling for $6000.  This includes the $1100 (cost) touch screen control with a lot more user interface than will be on the standard machines that will be closer to the $8000 range.  The fuel bin is a 100 gallon tank that can be retrofitted up to 250 gallons very easily.  The hx is an 80 gallon high efficiency water tank (open system).  All options will be standard on the test machines, and we're going to have unlimited warranty for the first couple of years (see the legal stuff on the web site).  The unit will also have an integrated pump.  There will also be some specialty stuff like clothing, hats etc that will be available to the 'development team' exclusively.

Cost for plumbing the facility to be heated will be up to the customer.  We are developing relatationships with vendors for supplies and expertise in installation design, so we will be able to offer those services as well.

Any upgrades we chose to install will be N/C and optional feed systems etc will heavily discounted as well.

Bioman...

I'm interested in becoming a tester/installing dealer. This technology is something that would be of great value to our area and surrounding counties.

If there may be an opportunity please tell me how to proceed...  8)

jpgreen,

Go to bioman's website and it has the application there.

Ron

Website can be jumped to from the left side of the page......... Bio-Mizer!

A friend of mine has a machine that compresses sawdust and planer shavings into hockey puck sized briquettes.....slow, but he says they burn great....Northtech Industrial Machinery makes it (China)...he planes and saws reclaimed wood, so his MC is low...may need to dry sawmill dust before using....

http://www.northtechmachinery.com/

Bioman,

How is the signup for the biomizers coming?  Have you started production of the test units yet?  Are you getting alot of interest in the signup?

Bringing this back up as I am sure there is alot of people interested in this on here. :)

Farmerdoug

We are going to have a tough time deciding on the test group.  The majority of the applicants appear to be highly qualified to work with us.  The first two units are going to be finished this week.  We're chasing out the final small changes to the models, prints etc so the next batch will be quicker. 

We're going to notify people of our choice of test sites the last week of November and start shipping machines the first week of December. 

We've also been continuing our miscellaneous tests and making small improvements to the machine and feed system. 

ElectricAl, if you are reading this I wanted to let you know we are incorporating a version of your suggestion to get warm air into the fuel bin.  I think it is going to work well.  I'll send pictures once we've tested.

We're also working up video clips of 'how things work' and will release a series of those when we're ready to start shipping.  I'm sure that as soon as the machines are in the hands of customers, it won't be long before the machines are taken apart to see what makes them tick.   ;)   So, video clips of how it works won't hurt us at that point.  Patents are being applied for.

I'm pretty sure we had some spies in here one weekend pretending to be interested customers but were really just checking the machine out.   :o   They played dumb but knew to much......oh well.

Quote from: Bioman on November 19, 2007, 09:17:22 PM
I'm pretty sure we had some spies in here one weekend pretending to be interested customers but were really just checking the machine out.   :o   They played dumb but knew to much......oh well.

Were they from China ???

 :D

Oh by the way, the last parts for the cogen prototype are supposed to be in tomorrow.  We may be producing power yet this month..... 8)

 8) 8) 8)

Man, its cold and drafty as I type this... I dont like electric heat  >:(

It's not as good as a good fire, but you have to remember. "Dude!  you're away the heck and gone up there".  :D   If your anywhere close to swampdonkey, you probably have to have the electricity delivered by ox and wagon. :P :D :D

BioMan,

I'm glad to hear the idea made it to "Proof of concept" .  8)


ElectricAl

Im not quite as far north as Donk, but gettin there  :). Yeah, they bring it by the pail-full  ;D.

Bioman, how hot is the exhaust from the 150 000 btu unit? In this old place there is an old brick chimney that cant be used for a stove unless it has a stainless liner installed  >:(. Given how clean it burns, would it be possible to vent the exhaust up an old "chimbley" like that without insurance problems?

...And is there a model number for the two units we can use to tell which burner were talkin about???

LT40HDD51,

I beleive that they are both outside units so you do not have to worry about your old chimney.  You just need to pipe the heat into the house.

Farmerdoug

An interesting side note, The pronouncation of chimbley v chimney. I have a friend who says chimbley where I've alway said chimney.

Bioman, that news about the cogen part coming in is the best I've heard!  Hope y'all aren't taking off Friday too, so that you can work on it instead of Christmas shopping.  I don't have a radiant heat slab yet, but itching to try making DC power with this thing!

Greg

I've found quite a bit of interest in the unit just from talking to people.  I get emails from people wanting to burn chips pretty frequently and point them to the biomizer page.

Myself I have no chipper and don't have dry storage for sawdust, all I have is hundreds of thousands of pounds of dry junk hay so I certainly wouldn't qualify as a tester but the idea is great and if it can be marketed at a good price I think it could really take off.

If I could develop a hay smasher so the chaff could be used I'd be set!

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on November 20, 2007, 08:41:14 PM
8) 8) 8)

Man, its cold and drafty as I type this... I dont like electric heat  >:(

I've been thinking about you.  Our head engineer is moving up there soon and wants to be off grid too, so he has extra incentive to get it working. :)

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on November 21, 2007, 08:47:16 AM
Im not quite as far north as Donk, but gettin there  :). Yeah, they bring it by the pail-full  ;D.

Bioman, how hot is the exhaust from the 150 000 btu unit? In this old place there is an old brick chimney that cant be used for a stove unless it has a stainless liner installed  >:(. Given how clean it burns, would it be possible to vent the exhaust up an old "chimbley" like that without insurance problems?

...And is there a model number for the two units we can use to tell which burner were talkin about???

The exhaust temp ranges of the domestic burner run anywhere from 350 at turn down rate (water at 205) and up to 700 when running at 200,000 output.  We ran it for several hours at 210,000 BTU output today.  It runs fine in that output range, but not as efficiently.   If you have a concern about exhaust temps, one of the programmable safety limits is flue temp and you can set flue temp limits to turn off the machine at any temp you want up to 800 degrees.

As far as insurance goes, that is a local question you will have to ask of them.

We'll have to make a final decision on the name soon.  For now it is either a domestic unit or industrial unit.

Slowzuki,

We have burned straw that was processed in a hammermill.  It is good fuel, just not as dense as sawdust. 

Bioman,


Quite a while ago you had the BearCat chipper rep over for a demo.
Did the demo machine have the hammer mill and changeable screens too?



ElectricAl

Yes it did, from what I can remember the fuel we made then would work now.  The main problem was big pieces were sliding by the side of the screen instead of being hammered through it.  I'm sure that problem would have been easily fixed.

On another note, the R&D team showed me a video of the latest grinder that can produce about 20 gallons of dust/min using 7 1/2 hp.  They have come a long way.  They are making a few changes and are adding a feed mechanism to it.

Is the 7.5hp machine for edgings or chips?

The video demonstration was small slabs (dry) and edgings.  They took a sack of 'dirty' chips back with them to test.  He thought the chips would do well in the new design.  He explained the design to me, but I haven't seen it nor am I completely sure how it works.  I just know it looks good so far.

I'll pass on more info when I get it.

Quote from: LT40HDD51 on November 21, 2007, 08:47:16 AM
Bioman, how hot is the exhaust from the 150 000 btu unit? In this old place there is an old brick chimney that cant be used for a stove unless it has a stainless liner installed  >:(. Given how clean it burns, would it be possible to vent the exhaust up an old "chimbley" like that without insurance problems?

You should NOT EVER use an old brick chimney without a stainless steel liner. Many people have died from CO poisioning from those old brick chimneys without liners when the plaster inside falls down and blocks the opening.  If you are lucky, you wake up with a real bad headache.  If you are unlucky, you do not wake up at all.

No plaster in this one, just brick and mortar. But yeah, youre probably right. I was just dreaming of having the whole unit in the dry warm basement for refueling in a blizzard  ;D.

Quote from: Bioman on November 21, 2007, 05:14:50 PM
I've been thinking about you.  Our head engineer is moving up there soon and wants to be off grid too, so he has extra incentive to get it working. :)

I think thats the best news Ive heard yet  8). Right along with the new (hopefully) chip-capable grinder...

Well, it's not a good whole kernel corn burner.  Clinkers are a problem.   :(

We're burning ground corn now to compare the two.

We burned ground corn with good success.  There was a small amount of dry matter in the mix (it looked like a small amount of straw). 

Based on this very limited test, it looks like harvesting corn, while grinding and mixing with the stover at the same time would yield a very nice dense fuel at the rate of approx 100 million btu's/acre.  The btu harvest is equivalent to 800 gallons of gasoline/acre, minus the 150 gallons of fuel to plant and harvest each acre.  Not a bad return.  That also compares to 1050 gallons of propane/acre.

Here's a wet dust burning update for those interested

We're still waiting on colder weather for better tests, but here is the latest:

40 Degrees F
Fuel moisture content 62% without propane - don't think we can go too much higher - probably less as the ambient goes down
Producing at approx 140,000 btu output - the machine will have to be de-rated slightly when burning wet fuel
Wet fuel has to be burned at higher temperature ranges than dry fuel
Will add chips to see if it makes a difference - I'm burning powdered fuel only right now
Can't feed as much fuel when it is wet - if you feed too much wet fuel the evaporation cools the chamber too much
Needs extra air (no problem for the computer)
Found that pre-heating the combustion air helps too - we have an easy way to do it
We'll be testing the new fuel bin that is equipped with pressurized hot air to pre-heat the fuel tomorrow
Fly ash is more pronounced when burning wet fuel

Overall I feel good about the wet fuel capabilities - but I'd rather be burning dry fuel (40% or less).  It's easier/better all around.

From an earlier discussion:

---

"Ethanol - the primary reason it isn't a viable project without subsidies is because of cost of heat required.  I'm sure these numbers can be debated, but generally it takes 1 gallon of gas to make 1.3 gallons of ethanol.  Gas has a BTU value of 131000 BTU/gal and Ethanol is 77000 BTU/gal.  There is a net loss of 54000 BTU/gal per gallon of Ethanol produced.  Also required is the crushed corn and 4 gallons of water.  It's pretty easy to see why it can be hard to justify making it - thus all the debate over it's virtues.

I'm using the following info to base our new ideas on:

- One acre of a corn yields approx 3.5 tons of grain AND 3.5 tons of stover (stalk, leaf, cob, shank, and husk).
- An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol.
- 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol
- the BTU value of 3.5 tons of stover at 7000 BTUs/lb is 49,000,000 BTU's (ash content is higher than sawdust so the heat value/lb is less)
- 42,968,000 BTUs are required to convert the one acre of corn to ethanol
- if you ran the still 24/7 the heat requirement is 60,000 BTU/hr/acre

What if -

- There was a burner that would burn Bio-dust efficiently to use as your heat source instead of gas?   
- You had enough stover from your harvest to produce the required heat for distillation? (and then some)
- There was a small still option sized to match the heat output of the burner available (150,000 or 1 million) BTUfor making your own ethanol?

A 150,000 BTU burner could handle 24+ acres/year and a 1,000,000 BTU burner could handle over 175 acres.  In both cases, a lot of the condensation heat is recoverable for other applications.  The potential production is 7872 gallons and 57,400 gallons respectively.  I don't know what ethanol is selling for, but it appears there is another economic engine waiting to start here."

---

Have you done any more thinking on this? Here in the Maritimes, we are currently studying the ins and outs of ethanol production, corn supply, where to put a processing facility, etc. Ive also heard rumors of a local multi-millionaire possibly going into some level of production on his own (hes also the guy with the commercial peat bogs that we talked about at our 25th celebration, too...)... Im sure like you said that the heat requirements are still the main issue...

We hired a chemical engineer for the ethanol project.  He is currently working directly with me in the design and build of the test units so he becomes intimate with how the machine works and how to apply the technology.  We won't move directly to the ethanol project until the test units are in place.

On a different note, we may be producing power this week.....

Producing power?

Now that well be great news if it comes together. 8)

But Bioman,  you do not even have the test units out and you are making our mouths water with more great projects.   ::)  We are at a stand still just waiting to hear who gets a test unit. ;D

I hope tests on all of the projects go great.  I am sure looking forward to helping with the alternative energy production for our future.

Farmerdoug

Yeah, there is a lot coming together at the same time.  I told you guys we were going to push up the cogen schedule and it's moving fast.   We won't be producing at capacity.  We simply want to prove the technology were pulling together is viable.

The first two burners are done and waiting on the hot air system before we place them (locally).

ElectricAl, the air system to preheat/dry the fuel is going to work well.  I have to make the plenum to hook up the blower tomorrow.  We held everything in place and the difference in temp in the tank was immediatly noticeable.  If we were to insulate the fuel tank the fuel would heat up in mere minutes.  The air isn't so hot as to cause problems, and it will do some quick drying in the tank.

Also, preheating the air into the combustion blower and igniter is significant.  Waiting a few more days for release of the test units is well worth getting to add the hot air option for the test units.

The dream of sending everything from a mill through a hog/grinder (screened to 3/4 is ideal - 1" works) and burning it wet appears to be the new reality of this ride we've been on this year. 

The decision on who gets burners will be next week.  We will begin the next round of burners next week also.

Bioman,

I'm glad the pre-dryer is working. It addresses two main problems: freezing in the storage tank and combustion temperature. 

Your idea of insulating the tank is a good one because the moist air in the tank will condense on the walls and run to the bottom causing other problems.

Are you going to add a moisture sensor to the tank to trigger the pre-dryer blower?

As the fuel is drying, where will the moisture go?  When the outside air is very cold that moisture will condense on the first thing it hits and turn to ice.  Can the moisture be vented directly into the air?

It would be easy to add vents to the tank near the top.  For now it's leaking out the around the loose cap. 

I noticed that when using wet dust the fog coming out of the tank was constant and heavy.  However, we don't get the bang for the buck with chips.  There simply isn't as much surface area to dry when comparing chips to dust.

The chip/dust fuel we tested yesteday must have been extremely wet as I couldn't get it to run without intermittant propane assist.  That limit appears to be somewhere around 60%. 

The other catch is wet chips/dust flow characteristics (in a full tank) are challenging.  We're going to have to do some more work on the fuel delivery system for this fuel type.  Dust by itself is easy.  If there isn't too much of the other fuel it works fine, but when you add weight it can become a problem.

We're working on it now....

Quote from: Bioman on November 28, 2007, 11:11:37 AM
......................................
The chip/dust fuel we tested yesteday must have been extremely wet as I couldn't get it to run without intermittant propane assist.  That limit appears to be somewhere around 60%. 

The other catch is wet chips/dust flow characteristics (in a full tank) are challenging.  We're going to have to do some more work on the fuel delivery system for this fuel type.  Dust by itself is easy.  If there isn't too much of the other fuel it works fine, but when you add weight it can become a problem.

We're working on it now....

Bioman
Puzzling to me that you are doing the experimenting and testing, where moisture content is a definite factor, but you are only guessing the moisture content of the material you are burning.??  Taking a moisture sample, weighing it, then oven drying it for a dry weight to calculate the true moisture content for all material in your test runs seems critical and very important, and not difficult.  Seems you need this critical bit of information for making design changes ("work on the fuel delivery system" for example) and for recommendations on which fuels work and which don't.

Maybe I'm missing something here, and don't mean to just poke at you, but it causes me frustration when reading about all these interesting tests on a variety of materials to burn....and these materials are the bottom line for the burner to work.

Sorry about that.

The tests yesterday were more related to feeding fresh hog fuel.  Oven drying a sample like this will take 24 hours or more and I didn't get that far because of the feed issues.  Had we been successful I would have measured the MC.  It's a moot point right now.

Now that I know we have a new set of challenges related to feeding hog fuel in the current inexpensive system, we've decided to quit researching that possibility for the moment and get the test units out.  We wanted to offer the hog fuel option on the test units so we had to try everything we could to see if there were show stoppers, and there were.

The test units are going to be equipped with a 100 gallon fuel hopper for dust and small chips (3/8 or less and not 1" chips), fuel pre-heater, combustion air pre-heater and the deluxe touch screen for enhanced control.  It also comes with a Taco series 13 pump.  Based on tests to date we will be able to burn wood 60% MC or less with very little or no propane to maintain the burn.  I still don't know how much ambient will affect the MC threshold.

We will go back to developing a different type of feed system for chips as soon as we can.  We will miniaturize the industrial feed system technology which we know works for chips.  This option will be more versatile and hold more for longer load time.  It will also cost more, and we were trying to stay away from additional cost by using the existing system.

We're done chasing limits on the domestic unit for now and will commense building for distribution.

By the way, I do appreciate candor in responses.  I hope you appreciate the efforts we're pushing into this project to get all we can while still trying to release reliable and versatile product.  We finally hit the wall I was looking for and it's time to move on.

Thanks for the heads-up.   :) :)
Wish you all the best as you move forward.

Just had a thought and maybe it was already talked about, I can't recall, but now that you are talking about burning wet dust and chips, are all the parts that come in contact up to par as far as corrosion proof?

I think we all appreciate what you guys do even more now, and understand better what makes this company of ours so great  :). Most people dont understand completely what it takes to get a new product like this designed, built, tested (over and over), tweaked, refined, simplified for production, etc. etc. because nobody is interested in showing the development of new things to the public. Bioman, I think you said something earlier about never having shown this level of development to the public before, it shows great confidence in what you do and in your projects. Again, we appreciate it  ;D.

Wood pellets at Tractor Supply, $211.50 per ton yesterday.

Yes, this is exciting watching the development take place. Seeing people scratch their heads and voice  their experience.  It's kinda like a whole lot of relatives in the waiting room at the hospital waiting on baby's delivery after giving nine months of advice to the mother.

I'm impressed with the technical advancements sense October when I saw the Latest and Greatest at the 25th show. ;D

There are so many ideas tried by WoodMizer that the general public never sees.
Some make it to production and some don't even make it through the R&D tests. 

Years ago I was over at Indy talking tech with Randy Panko. One of the topics was slow hydraulics on the LT40HDG24.  Randy said they were working on it. He took me to someone's test bench and there were 2 pump assembles side by side bolted to a piece of plywood. 
That test turned into the 40 Super. 8)

But on the flip side we looked at a sawmill with two claw turners. One for big logs and one for small square cants. The small turner was to keep from pushing the cant up the back stops.
Great idea that made it to the prototype stage, but never made it to production. :-\
However we got a pretty slick chain turner now :)

Quote from: Cedarman on November 29, 2007, 07:48:15 AM
...It's kinda like a whole lot of relatives in the waiting room at the hospital waiting on baby's delivery after giving nine months of advice to the mother.

:D And were all gonna argue over who gets to "hold" it and "feed" it first   :D

Bioman,

How are the test unit decisions coming?

I am sure looking forward to this unit when it comes out.  How about the electricity generator coming also?  You need to keep us informed better either here or on your own forum.  Things have staled a bit there too.  Posting keeps things moving in this web age. ;)

Farmerdoug

Bioman,

When you tried ground corn, did you mean cracked or fine ground?

Have you tried oats, wheat, beans, etc?  We occasionally have access to molded grains real cheap since they cannot be used for feed.

Farmerdoug

Guys, I've been busy with the final release of the product so I've ignored the thread for a few days.  Things are looking GREAT!  We're choosing the test sites this week. 

I'll be back later tonight to catch up on things.

Sounds great. 8)

Looking forward to the update.

Farmerdoug

We had an Ice Storm move through last weekend and deposit an inch of ice on everything. It could have been worse, last Feb we had 60mph winds and an inch of ice.

What I'm looking forward to is a nice new BioMizer Co-Gen in stead of this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/Feb07IceStorm.JPG)

Quote from: farmerdoug on December 03, 2007, 02:10:10 PM
Bioman,

When you tried ground corn, did you mean cracked or fine ground?

Have you tried oats, wheat, beans, etc?  We occasionally have access to molded grains real cheap since they cannot be used for feed.

Farmerdoug

The corn we burned was fine ground.  I haven't tried cracked corn yet.

I have not had the opportunity to burn the others.  We need to when we get a chance.

Quote from: ElectricAl on December 03, 2007, 09:33:04 PM
We had an Ice Storm move through last weekend and deposit an inch of ice on everything. It could have been worse, last Feb we had 60mph winds and an inch of ice.

What I'm looking forward to is a nice new BioMizer Co-Gen in stead of this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10103/Feb07IceStorm.JPG)

Since I know the question is going to come up, I'll be head it off with this note. 

We are imposing a news blackout on the cogen project - in a good way  ;)

Test sites have been chosen and applicants will be getting a call confirming continued interest.  We had too many to pick from, so we've made a secondary list and will expand the program assuming all continues to go well.

Congratulations to the lucky ones selected. I chose not to enter since right now I am not at a point that I could utilize the hot water produced, but REALLY much more interested in the power production potential.  Since that's not what the test units are dealing with, I felt I should stay out and give others my chance.  I do hope ElectricAl gets one so he can use the hot water to melt all that ice! 

I am about to begin installation (first of the year) on a 4 KW off-grid system, and I'm leaving space to tie in the co-gen when they get it ironed out.

That's a hint, in case y'all missed it in Madisonville....

Greg

Greg,

What type of 4kw off-grid system are you going to put in?

Ron

Greg,  I am sure that will make someone very happy. :)

I for one was chosen to be in the group and I am going to test it.  8) I guess in the near future I will have more to say about the unit than questions about it. :D

Farmerdoug

Forgot to mention one of the updates we did the other day. 

We got the flue temps down to mid 400 degree range in normal cycles.  We're seeing approx 520 when running long load cycles at 150 K and near 600 when pushing it hard.  That's a decrease of approx 150 degrees which means a pretty nice increase in efficiency.  These temps are taken when water is at 205 degrees.

Greg,

QuoteI do hope ElectricAl gets one so he can use the hot water to melt all that ice!

It's going to take a bunch :o

We have spread 10 wheel barrow loads of red hots from our 3 outdoor wood burners. That is just to clear the concrete for the fork lifts to move logs and lumber. There is still 600' of concrete road that needs treated :-\ Did I mention its snowing on the ice right now :(   Looks like 4-5" by friday. :-\


Doug,

Looks like we have even more to talk about now ;). 
Like you we have access to spoiled grain too.
I think testing "hard to get rid of " products is going to be the GREEN thing to do.


Bioman,

QuoteWe are imposing a news blackout on the cogen project - in a good way 

Oops :-X

Big congrats to the Forestry Forum members getting the phone calls. I'm sure proud that you guys are part of this. :)  :) 

The Forestry Fourm is were the world comes to learn 8)

I'm headed out of town until next Tues.  I'll check in when I can.

Ronwood, 
We have ordered a 4024 Magnum inverter which has the ability to supply 240V without needing to piggyback another inverter. Supplying DC power to this will be 16 Unisolar 64 panels, which will (on paper) supply 1,024 watts of DC per hour. I'm wiring those at 48Vdc output which the charge controller will step down to 24 volts for the battery bank, eight Trojan L16's. 

Even if the co-gen system didn't put out 1 KW, you have the luxury of getting that 1 KW for 24 hours a day.  What I wonder is, supposing I want to run a Bio-Mizer in the summer for power, will I have to supply a heat sink to to absorb heat from the water and keep things running as they are designed?  Or will this be a cool-weather only power supply?

Thanks for the interest,

Greg

Do we know all the names of the Bio-Mizer test site people?

I know one name and rumors of a couple of others. 

Who are they?  How many test units will be out there soon?  Some later?

Bibbyman,

There are 20 test units going out at first.  There maybe more later.

The short list I have gathered so far is;

Electric Al

Farmerdoug(me) 8)

I am interested in finding out where the rest of the units are going too.  I guess we will have to wait and see if Bioman can tell us.

You can checkout Biomizer's forum on their website also.

Farmerdoug

Quote from: farmerdoug on December 06, 2007, 07:04:04 AM

You can checkout Biomizer's forum on their website also.

Farmerdoug

I did.  But  I didn't find out any more exact informantion.  At least at that time.

Congratulations Farmerdoug and ElectricAl.This whole subject is facinating and we're looking forward to your reports.

Paul,

Next week we get to make a payment and get the site preparation plans.   ;D
I hope there is a section on how to install on a snow drift.  :o
We are froze down 6" then 1" of ice and then 6" of snow. :-\
I think we have 45 days to get hooked up and going.   ???

The plan right now is to use red hots from the outdoor wood burners to burn down through the snow and ice. Then build a wooden platform and level it with cribbing. Might put a couple tie backs on the BioMizer just in case it settles funny in the spring. 

Electric Al
Seems around here that our snow cover is drawing that frost out of the top layer of ground, as it insulates the ground from the cold.  Keep the snow on top as thick as possible for as long as possible would seem to help the most, even piling it deeper.

Looking forward to the results of all your efforts.. :)

So Beenthere's done that 8)

Good advice. ;D

We can pile more snow tomorrow. ;)

It might be 4-6 weeks before delivery, maybe the frost will go away. :)

hey al, I didnt think your frost went away until June.  ;D

Looking forward to the updates...

I am waiting on the site plans to see what they require for the base first.  Electric Al, I already have the area leveled. ;)  It was done several years ago when I first put in the boiler.  Who says I don't plan ahead. ::) :D :D

As far as hooking it up it is going to be plumbed into my Central Boiler.  It is going right next to the boiler so the wiring and piping will be minimal.  It will try to keep the boiler hot which holds 800 gallons of water itself so it will be definitly be tested. ::)

I think we will have alot of talking about this units here.

I see Marty Parsons was selected for a test unit too.  We have to get him on here.  I have heard that all of the sales service centers have been offer it first. 

What I cannot beleive is that Bibbyman has not been testing one already.  Or maybe he has and just cannot say anything. ;) :-X

Farmerdoug

Yes I am here. FarmerDoug, what are your plans for hooking the BioMizer to you existing system. We have a outside wood/oil burner boiler at the Wood-Mizer building. We will need to keep it at temp also. It has an oil burner hook up but it has never been used. We also have a similar system at our home with a wood hydronic / Radiant with a back-up oil furnace that runs as needed. as the wood fire goes out the oil furnace picks up and takes over. Well that is how it was designed to work but the oil furnace runs more than I like it to.
Maybe you have some suggestions?
Marty

Marty,

I am leaning in the direction of hooking it right up to the CB unit.  I am thinking of pulling water from the cold return port and sending it back to the hot water port.  This means capping off one of the units.  I am figuring on capping the Biomizer and putting the pump on the cold side to feed the water to the Biomizer.  With the Biomizer capped the water will return hot to the CB boiler by itself.  But I am going to have to discuss this futher with Bioman first.

Any other ideas are welcome.

Farmerdoug

Kevin,

You got it right.



Doug,

We plan to hook up direct to our Heatmor 400 outdoor wood burner. This way we don't have to mess with the pumps for the building. The BioMizer will come with it's own pump, and we'll use it to pump to the Heatmor. We'll trigger the BioMizer pump off of the aquastat on the Heatmor.

Our system has straight water in it so we cannot be shut down for more than a few hours if it's real cold. Even though the BioMizer is a product of WoodMizer a very top notch company, we get TEST units.
There is a chance of a glitch. It is our responsibility to help find any bugs in the system and figure out a way to correct the problem.

Alternative fuel sources is an intriguing thought. I like the Chicken poo idea. 

Electric Al,

That is the way I am going too but I am wondering if we can cap off the Biomizer so the water will circulate back to the outdoor boiler and not out the vent. 

How are you going to connect the pump to the auqastat?  With a low voltage motor starter?

More questions will be coming. ;D

Farmerdoug

We talked to BioMan about the poo and they have used it before. What we have available is young turkeys are raised from hatched birds for 5 weeks and moved to a different floor. The material they start with is Kiln dryed planner shavings, ( 53' van load with a walking floor) and they clean this material out every 5 weeks. The material is dry and around the edges of the walls is basic the same as it was put in very little poo. The main area has some clumps and we will need to see how this may work. I talked to him yesterday and they just received a new load of beddining that is finer than the shavings more like sawdust and that sounds even more usable. I plan on getting a load in a small trailer and see how it works in our outdoor furnace. The other poo they have on the other level for the older birds is nasty stuff I am not sure we would get any customers around if it was in the area. The moisture content will be an issue. I guess from what I understand the feed is what will not burn after it goes through the digestive system? We will do some tests and see how it works in the out door furnace and go from there.
We have Honeywell controls that operate our circulators that would work with the accustat. I will see if I can get the model #. In our new building we have a mixing tank and all of the zones are fed from this point. It is homemade. It is a tank and all of the circulators are hooked to and and the returns are feed into it.
Marty
Got to go!

Poo will burn. Down in Texas there is a power plant that burns dried cow manure. Must smell great. Course with all the feedlots they probably never notice. The only thing is you have to watch the moisture content.

Stonebroke

So what, someone goes around picking up cow pies ???

Guys, I'm still traveling.  We've already been delayed into Chicago, and looking at the weather I'm guessing it's 50/50 on whether we get home tonight.  

I'm looking forward to catching up and starting the test process.  We'll have a special spot on the biomizer forum for you test guys.  We'll have video and special info that we'll be sending out pre-delivery of the machines.  It will also be the place for you guys to share info back with us in a more intimate testing atmosphere.  

I'll be back online sometime tomorrow.

See ya.

  furby

They scrape it up off of dirt lots. That is all the pioneers had to cook with a hundred years ago. They must have gotten used to it.

Stonebroke

Doug,

At this point I don't see any real problem with capping the BioMizer vent and relying on the Central vent. I would be inclined to use an automatic vacuum breaker. That way the tank is protected from implosion if the water would drain out fast do to a line failure.
I take it you want to close the loop to encourage natural convection?

This brings up an interesting issue, the Heatmor operates with up to 2 lbs. of pressure.
The BioMizer is vented......If the BioMizer can handle the pressure we might use the vacuum breaker on the BioMizer and let the expansion bladder on the Heatmor do it's thing. 
I guess the BioEngineers will make the final decision.

Our  aquastat is 120v and triggers a blower fan for the Heatmor. There is a switch down stream from the aquastat before the blower. We'll just shut off the blower switch while the BioMizer is in operation.

The Central has a similar set up to trigger the solenoid for natural air draft or the blower option.

We have a Central Boiler for the house. Boy that's a nice unit.



BioMan,

Did you get a chance to try some closed cell expanding foam as insulation?

Al,

We have not tried the closed cell foam yet.  We discussed it and were concerned about the foam at higher temps (300-350) needed when heating oil for the cogen unit.  Honestly we never got back to it.

As for the vent, we'll be adding a pressure cap as well.  It's simply a matter of screwing it into the vent fitting instead of hooking up an overflow hose.  Probably costs less too...

On the subject of poo,

Our experience is with chicken litter while testing a previous burner project as well as some limited testing in the Bio-Mizer earlier this year.  We have not tested with the latest enhancements.

Here's what we found.

Pure litter was about 21% ash.  It didn't burn well by itself and tended to slag badly.  Actual burning of the litter didn't smell too bad, but smell due to evaporation of the liquids before burning was significant.   

Given what we experience vs what we know now, I'm convinced it could be mixed with some kind of base fuel like sawdust and burned successfully in the Bio-Mizer.  I don't think we would have the same slagging problem.  We will be testing this again when we can fit it in, we've just been to busy lately.  We understand this option is significant and if poultry houses could burn poo mixed with another cheap fuel, they could save significantly while eliminating the problem of getting rid of the litter.  I know some areas are still able to get rid of the litter, but several areas are saturated and need other ways of getting rid of it.

Farmerdoug,

Do you do any CO2 enriching in your greenhouses?

Bioman,

Not currently.  But if the generator of yours works out I am tempted in growing tomatoes all winter with grow lights.  Then I will but adding CO₂.

Farmerdoug

ElectricAl,

Have you received the site plans yet?  Sent my deposit in yesterday so I guess I am just waiting on the mail now.

As for an alternative fuel I have been offered as much weed seeds as I can haul.  I am going to get some ready for the test burner when we get it and get it set up.

Farmerdoug

I'll have the site plans in the lounge this weekend.

Quote from: Greg Cook on December 05, 2007, 05:17:23 PM
Ronwood, 
We have ordered a 4024 Magnum inverter which has the ability to supply 240V without needing to piggyback another inverter. Supplying DC power to this will be 16 Unisolar 64 panels, which will (on paper) supply 1,024 watts of DC per hour. I'm wiring those at 48Vdc output which the charge controller will step down to 24 volts for the battery bank, eight Trojan L16's. 

Even if the co-gen system didn't put out 1 KW, you have the luxury of getting that 1 KW for 24 hours a day.  What I wonder is, supposing I want to run a Bio-Mizer in the summer for power, will I have to supply a heat sink to to absorb heat from the water and keep things running as they are designed?  Or will this be a cool-weather only power supply?

Thanks for the interest,

Greg

Very interested in the answer to his question...  8)

Hello everyone I am one of the lucky ones chosen for a biomizer unit.

most of you know my dad as cedarman. He's been telling me to get on here for a while and now I have a really good reason.

I am looking for some of the best equipment to install along with the biomizer. such as what coil system to use in my duct work or a free standing radiator.

any ideas would be helpful.

okmulch,

Welcome to the forum. I bought my coil through the dealer that I bought my outdoor furnace. Other supplies came from the local hardware store. I am not sure if there is a lot of difference in the coils. Make sure you get one that is large enough to do the job.

Ron

Welcome OKMulch  smiley_wavy

We get our heat exchangers and pumps from our Central boiler dealer.

http://www.centralboiler.com/parts.html (http://www.centralboiler.com/parts.html) This will get you to the parts book (PDF).

Go over there to get ideas.

BioMan said a while back that they were going to try to supply the basic stuff for instulation.  I'm not sure how far they have gotten on that though. ::)


Again, welcome a board and enjoy the ride 8)

Welcome OKMulch.  I think I would stick an automotive radiator in the ductwork.. OK I'm cheap ::)

OKMulch,  Glad to have you aboard.  When I saw you sign up I was wondering if you were related to Cedarman.

ElectricAl is right.  CB has outstanding heat exchangers and accessories.  I am sure that Biomizer will have all of the accessories needed too.

What are you going to heat?

Farmerdoug

FarmerDoug,

The check and paperwork go out to day ::)

The Ice Storm got us backed up on some stuff :-\

Quote from: jpgreen on December 13, 2007, 12:58:59 PM

Quote from: Greg Cook on December 05, 2007, 05:17:23 PM
Ronwood, 
We have ordered a 4024 Magnum inverter which has the ability to supply 240V without needing to piggyback another inverter. Supplying DC power to this will be 16 Unisolar 64 panels, which will (on paper) supply 1,024 watts of DC per hour. I'm wiring those at 48Vdc output which the charge controller will step down to 24 volts for the battery bank, eight Trojan L16's. 

Even if the co-gen system didn't put out 1 KW, you have the luxury of getting that 1 KW for 24 hours a day.  What I wonder is, supposing I want to run a Bio-Mizer in the summer for power, will I have to supply a heat sink to to absorb heat from the water and keep things running as they are designed?  Or will this be a cool-weather only power supply?

Thanks for the interest,

Greg

Very interested in the answer to his question...  8)

I can tell you this much.  The cogen will have a built in hx to remove heat (that can be used for other applications year around, i.e. a kiln).  If you don't have need for the heat you dump it into the atmosphere.  If you have a source of cheap water like a flowing creek you can remove heat geo thermally.  The unit is designed to be used all year. 

Welcome OKMulch,

We've struck up a relationship with Rick Jones who sells burners and supplies.  Maybe not the cheapest, be he's the open door for us to begin building OEM relationships so we can stock the supplies you guys will need. 

If interested you can check him out or call him.  Here's his web site.  http://www.stjosephky.com/

Quote from: Bioman on December 14, 2007, 11:31:56 AM
If you have a source of cheap water like a flowing creek you can remove heat geo thermally. 

I'd be real careful about doing that and even more careful about recommending it.
The EPA don't take too kindly to habit destruction, and rasing the temps of some streams, rivers, ponds, lakes and wetlands can have just that effect.
That's why power plants and such have huge regulations to follow.
Now I know it won't have much effect on some water supplies, but that won't stop the fines.

Bioman,

Will the cogen unit only work with the Biomizer?

Thanks
Ron

hey thanks for the warm welcome!

i will be heating my house at first. we have four zones in our house that as of right now we heat with heat pump, electric and gas heaters. one room which is very large does not heat well. so a radiator would probably be the best solution for it and then coils in the duct work for the remainder of the house.

i will be using the fines, needles and small pieces of mulch that are bi- product from our whole tree grinding of eastern red cedar trees.

Sounds like a good pool heater!  Extended seasons out to Dec 25 lol

[/quote]

I can tell you this much.  The cogen will have a built in hx to remove heat (that can be used for other applications year around, i.e. a kiln).  If you don't have need for the heat you dump it into the atmosphere.  If you have a source of cheap water like a flowing creek you can remove heat geo thermally.  The unit is designed to be used all year. 
[/quote]

It maybe a hot pool if you are not careful. ::) :D :D :D :D :D

Farmerdoug

Doug,

Hot tubbing while it is snowing is a blast as long as the wind is not blowing to hard. ;D

Yes, But with the 30-35 MPH winds yesterday you would have been a frozen popsicle before you made it to the house. :o :o :o

Don't go to the house!!!

Yeah, if I had heat to waste and had a pool, I'd try running all winter.
Part of the fun is trying to make it back and forth when it's cold.
Sure makes the warm water and warm house feel even better! :)

Ronwood,

We have no plans to make it compatable with other equipment.  I'm not sure what it would take to modify the other machines to make it work.  

I'm kind of liking the hot tub idea.  I think we need to test that down here to ensure it would be a safe application for our customers.   ;)

So are the hottubs going to be sent out to the testers too? ??? :D :D :D

Yeah, I'll see if can sneak that in without anyone noticing   ::)

I sure would like to give it a shot on my Jetstream but I'd bet one would have to adapt the load controller that runs the biomizer to match power demands to my FD and ID fans.

Quote from: Bioman on December 17, 2007, 10:05:29 PM
Ronwood,

We have no plans to make it compatable with other equipment.  I'm not sure what it would take to modify the other machines to make it work.  

Guys and Gals,

The Biomizer forum has been updated so that you guys can look into the general diccussion board in the testers lounge.  I hope that this allows you guys to follow the test of the units more easily. 

They are shipping the first units in early January so soon we will get to update on our progress reports.  I know we are excited about this test and probably will be little overzealous so bear with us. ::) ;D

We have interested Bioman in the running of cooling off of the boiler so we may see a push in that direction too.  I just hope we do not get Bioman trying to many things at once.

Farmerdoug

Furby pointed out to me that I was kinda vague on the cooling part.  ???   We diccussed this here on this thread.https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=25996.0 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=25996.0)

It is about using the boiler to supply the energy for a cooling system.  I think with Woodmizer and Biomizer working on it,  this will be a dream come true for some of us here on the Forum.

Farmerdoug

Thanks Doug, I wasn't 100% sure what you were talking about.
Yeah, I can see that feature as being one heck of a selling point! :o

To be a little clearer yet.  Wouldn't it be cool to have a unit that supplied power and all you heat/AC needs?  A unit that can cool a house is as big or bigger than the heating market.

Farmerdoug,  I'm trying my best to ignore that one for now.. :D - my mind is spinning with all of the opportunities here. 

I have noticed a few of you guys over on the Biomizer forum.  You have to register to see everything that you guys are allowed to see.  We have been talking about a few things.  You can post in the testers lounge general diccussion but not start a new topic.  If you want to start a new topic you can in the public general diccussion page.  I hope you guys will feel free to post with us.  If you are not comfortable then ask here and we will take it from there.

Of course I will post updates here too.  But the double posting will get old fast so I will not diccuss everything here. 

Farmerdoug

i am a member over there but have not posted am i not seeing everything i could be

SJ,  Can you see the general diccussion in the bio-testing lounge?  There are several threads there that you should have access to, if not let me know and I will tell Bioman.

Farmerdoug

SJ, it would be helpful if you could let us know if where you can and can't go on the other site.  We're trying to make it open yet locked down for security/spam etc.  We want to make sure we share as much as is appropriate at this stage of things.

bio-testing lounge?

Yep, a special section @ www.biomizerforum.com set up for the testers of the burners.  We have opened up one discussion group in the 'testing lounge' to the public.  Duplicate posting was going to be too cumbersome, and a lot of the things discussed there are not proprietary so we opened the general discussion to everyone.  There are other parts of the lounge available only to the testers.

thanks bioman got it now . good info i will need as i will be preparing for one in the future

Guys,  We have another member testing the Biomizer too.

Congratulations,  Jeff.  I am glad to be testing along with you, Electric Al and OKmulch.

I suspect everyone will have to bring a bag of sawdust to the next pig roast. ;D ;D ;D

Sorry Jeff, I just had to tell everyone.

Farmerdoug

YUp! :D  Good Idea, admission is a bag of dry sawdust. :D

Big thanks to Scott (Bioman) and Tim (Biotim) for asking me to join the team of testers. I'm really honored that Bio-Mizer want the Forestry Forum on board.  :)

Congrats Jeff,I'm looking forward to the reports from you all as things progress.Thanks Scott and Tim!

Here is the link to the Bio-mizer forum,hopefully more of us will join over there and see what is happening.

Bio-mizer Forum Link (http://www.biomizerforum.com/index.php)

I've tried to sign up on the Bio-Mizer Forum a few times, and it always give me a "page will not load" error.  Maybe somebody there has seen a picture of me and I am below their minimum standards?????

Any help would be appreciated :)

Greg

When did you try to signup?

Has anyone else had problems signing up?

Greg,

We're looking into it.  I'm not aware of anyone else having problems.  We have been updating the site today, but I wouldn't think that would stop you from registering.

Hot tub party at da Brokaw's  8)  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 :D   That makes me wonder how warm and for how long we could have kept the pool going.

I say all year! 8)
OWW is bringing the cheese! ;)

Furby,

Is that to make the bubbles? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

NO FURBIES IN DA POOL

It's a HOT TUB! 8)
OWW knows what the cheese is for. ;)

Biggest problem I see is Ice becoming ice. :-\

Furb, are you binging the vino?  bath_smiley

No, cause I don't partake and didn't want to encourage.
Cheese is good though. ;) :)

I'll post here too.  Does anyone has access to bales of switchgrass?

They have installed the first Biomizer at Bio-Tim's house last week.  8) They are going to post pictures this weekend.

They now have a video on the installation thread over at Biomizer Forum.  It is rather large so if you have dialup like me be aware it will take a while to download.  They will be adding pictures for us slow pokes soon.

How about posting it here?

The pictures and video is theirs of their install at Bio-Tim's place.  I will see if they will post something here also. 

Here is the link to the page the video is on.   The Bio-Forum works upside down to the Forestry Forum scroll down to the bottom of the page to find it.  Look for a big box with a blue "M" in the middle.

Link to Bio-Mizer install video (http://www.biomizerforum.com/showthread.php?t=91&page=2)

Bibbyman,  All you have to do is change your preferences on your control panel to get the oldest post first over there.  It is the same way here too.

Well it looks like we are going to have to burn sawdust that has a MC below 30%.  If the MC is above 30% it requires alot of propane.  I hope we can work the MC% as we test though. 

They are building the test units as fast as they can but have fallen behind with a couple of problems Bio-Tim has already found and they are correcting.  It looks like the first deliveries will be in the first half of February. 

I will update when I know more about the project.  One other thing, Biomizer is moving up to Indy where the Biomizers will be built in New Point along with the Woodmizer mills.  All that will be left in Kentucky is the Resharp shop.

How are the test Bio_Mizer's working?
Seems a bit quiet... ::) ::)

Still waiting to get them and I am a little worried about the lack of answers from them too. ::)

I don't mind the wait as there is to much winter right now to wanna go outside. however it is pretty quiet on the Bio-Mizer front!

Yah, I hear ya on that winter thing...got a another good taste of it here today too.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10180/Feb_08_snow_ff.JPG)

It has been quiet at Bio-Mizer because there hasn't been much to talk about.  We've been busy building units.  We have run into several issues that we needed to correct.  We hope to have the first 5 test units completed by the end of this week (2/15).  Once they are ready to ship, we will begin contacting testers about shipping their unit. 

Welcome to the forum....

How about an introduction....who you be??
Implied that you are with BioMizer...as you said "we've been busy...."

Or did I miss something?
thanks :) :)

Yes, I work at Bio-Mizer.  I'm the new pres.  I have been at Wood-Mizer for 22 1/2 years.  I am not as active on the forum as some in the past have been, so please don't take that as Wood-Mizer witholding info.  I usuall only look at it every few days.

We are very happy to have you here in our little world. 8) 8) 8)

I really enjoyed the long conversation I had with some of your guys at the Pig Roast back in August.  Still wish the Sterling engine to electricity idea had worked out.  Hope you guys haven't given up on the idea of having an electrical output.

Bruce

Quote from: batesvillebuck on February 12, 2008, 08:13:02 AM
Yes, I work at Bio-Mizer.  I'm the new pres.  I have been at Wood-Mizer for 22 1/2 years.  I am not as active on the forum as some in the past have been, so please don't take that as Wood-Mizer witholding info.  I usuall only look at it every few days.

That's a start... ;D ;D
What does a Bio-Mizer pres do?  We'd like ta get to know ya better....we're pretty good listeners.   ::) ::)
8)

Quote from: submarinesailor on February 12, 2008, 08:23:38 AM
I had with some of your guys at the Pig Roast back in August.  Still wish the Sterling engine to electricity idea had worked out.  Hope you guys haven't given up on the idea of having an electrical output.

Bruce

Now that's got my ears perked up.  Us off gridders are always seeking power generation, specially DC with cool engines..  8) 8) 8)

Any Bio-Mizers been shipped received?? 
Just anxious to hear how they work out.

Hope this isn't opening a can of worms.... ::)

Just started reading this thread now. Do I have to scroll through 30 pages to find out how much one of these things will cost when they come to market?

Our Baker resaw and wide abrasive planers here generate three pickup trucks (a box 4'x4'x8') worth of fine, kiln-dried mostly aspen sawdust, most every working day... is this enough to keep up with a Bio-Mizer, or are they bigger scale than that?

EDIT - OK, sorry about that... I watched the video and it looks like these things are small. Are there plans to make bigger ones? We have a 24,000 sq ft building here.

Thanks,
-Norm.

Norm,
They are testing  million btu burners right now.  They will burn your output readily.  If you figure about 6000 btus per lb, you can figure out your fuel needs.

Doug

Any updates from anyone? These mizers must surely be getting more and more attractive with utility costs doing what they are certainly going to do every 6 months.

I tried the forum link and it says its down. I was looking because I am getting pretty close to needing a heat source for my 4000 BF kiln. What is happening with the biomizer ???

It's been down for several months.
Where have you been.... 8) 8) ;D ;D

I get blinders on sometimes.  ::)

I never saw anything on it in the thread though. Any hints about what is going on. ???

I'm out of the loop too. :-[  What happened with the Biomizer?

thanks

It became Bio-Burner.  Look down in the sponsor boards for the Bio-Burner board. It is no longer a wood-mizer company, and is now a completely different incarnation from the original.  also check out http://www.bio-burner.com/

Thanks Jeff!